PPS- Whats next? Should i show you my concept sketch's and ideas for my gamma island defence and structure layout to know ahead of time so all my nic/time invested after i build it on gamma doesnt get brushed away in 1 patch?

I already send in my fits 2-3 months ahead of time before i run them. So you have sufficient time to balance around it.

Im losing faith with all these knee jerks and not sticking your foot down Devs.

i thought it took numbers and detailed reviews to get things done not a QQ +1 thread

BTW this is a detailed video depiction of how i warm up to pvp break down walls and then nail everyone. 0:00-1:00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fN-xq7t6 … ature=slpl

The QQ is from the people that want 'instant' PVP, the same ones that QQ in WoW if the battleground queue's are more than 5 minutes.

I undertand their perspective, maybe they only have 30-45 minutes of game time per night, and they want to get some action in, but is that really what Perpetuum should be balanced around?

There's also the issue of low population, as it pertains to PVP, its difficult to get a squad put together for a decent sized attack or response, this I understand too. But again, if we are looking at balancing the game around the server population being low, there are alot of changes that should be made before worrying about walls.

Devs, look at the psychology of the players and scenerios that Lemon has laid out. The players on Alsbale DON'T WANT TO FIGHT, removing their ability to wall agressivly-defensive isn't going to suddenly generate PVP agents for them to guard thier miners with. The walls gave them the ability to survive on beta. This is where I get agrivated, because by removing walls, the message your sending is that using the game mechanics Smartlyand using your economic power agressively, are worthless. Perpetuum ONLY wants combat player vs player, and beta islands are only for combat PVP, not for players smart and dedicated enough to pour many hours and millions of NIC per day into being 'safe'.

But as lemon points out, they are not 'actually' safe. They are safe from players that give-up because the wall defenses are too hard. So, the real power of the walls, is not that they actually make players safe, but because the players that would normally be a danger are too lazy to put the effort into countering them.

How can you punish a group of players that have worked so hard? You have to realize that the Anti-PVP walls didn't spring into existance on day 1. Every time they were attacked, they learned from it, and created a counter. THAT is exactly what PVP is all about. Now, instead of making the roaming PVP'ers learn new and better tactics, you're simply removing the obstacle for them.

For those that are thinking they aren't removing the walls, just limiting the distance: A comprehensive defense plan needs to include the whole Island, not just a small band around a structure that doesn't mean anything. There is no reason to 'defend' an outpost. It simply isn't a target, SAPs and bots are the only targets on beta. And even then, you can't 'defend a SAP. You either have enough players online to counter the attackers force, or you don't. Walls only slow and direct traffic, they don't DEFEND anything.

Making this change needs more justifcation than "its needed to restore 'easy' roaming".

http://www.perpetuum-online.com/Ingame:Most_dangerous

I link the above because i attained 44 of those in 4 days and the bulk of which took place on Alsbale followed by Novastrov.

Any argument stating the KB as proof to a decline in pvp due to walls i will retort with general chat numbers and state if the overall population is down then it will directly relate to the active beta population thus the KB activity.

I now point you to a theory behind this which is the "Waiting Period" as some have deemed it in this thread.

http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … to-say-it/

Now unless your argument is to state that walls in the current state of the population and or world size is causing a  balance issue that is another thing entirely. Which we can see Arga referenced above and i am sure there is a full realm of possibilities.

Risk Vs Reward
Is it not a risk for a group of industrial focused players to push to beta and RISK everything to build walls to buy them selves time to further RISK there assets to mine on beta for a REWARD?

Does these players taking this  RISK not in fact directly increase the # of potential targets on that island?

I have yet to see these walls be subject to any form of siege or sov attack, only simply repel ill prepared zerg roams.

As my self during solo pvp in my 4 days i lost my first bot on Alsbale due to Walls and it was  a learning experience for me. ToG bagged my kain mk 2 caught me in a switch back they built. I am sure they can attest to after that death i adapted my strategy and came back and avenged my death once again getting well over 15 kills.

There is no law that states every player has to have sufficient military force to live on beta nor that they have to fight for it on beta. The simple fact to the matter is that any decent military force can come and evict them. However Alsbale does have  a force and are learning and improving and im sure as they mature we will see a steady decrease in walls.

Go look at Kenta or Norhoop with the decay, they are new islands now.

+1

very nice post Lemon. The complaints that bombing walls is not PvP are comming from guys with "hands growing from ***" (as hunter would say)

You need a sequer (i think a certain corp still has *** of them stockpiled somewhere), a few bombs, and a LWF, to do clean some walls and proxies together with them. Those destroyed walls dont build up again on their own, and not in all off them in a few seconds after destruction. Your roam can then bring down "maintainence" Robots, or simply roam into that territory.

the kettle black whatever here is the "demand for more sand" while crying the moment a new true sand-tile got added. Better you stop playing this game now, before Terraforming was added.

Same goes for the question to the DEVs: "whats your intention with this feature"
Answer probably is short: "adds more sand"

PS:
As far as i can remember Arga was a PvP player since he started playing this game
(player driven market is PvP by definition)

Opinion?  No.  They earn the the ablity to control those resources, by being willing to commit to their defense with active military force.  No entitlement involved there, merely the ablity to project force and defend their activities on beta.  It's a meritocracy based on willingness to sacrifice in the common ( corporate/alliance) interest.

Reading comprehension, try it.  No, what I said is for the "carebears" that do not want to pvp, but be on beta, should team up with those who do.  Multifaceted corps/alliance, each facet complimenting the others activity.  MMOs are about teamwork, not solo.  Yes, miners and industrialists are necessary, I have an industrialist alt, mine and manufacture every day.  But I also actively defend those industrialist alliance assets, as well as my own, with pvp.

You, Tamas and Arga, are the entitlement issue people here, the ones going "I should be able to have the candy, but I don't want t fight to get it".  Fine, don't, just work with someone who does.

And what you all convenietly forget is what drives that industry?  It's the PVP, the more PVP there is, the more demand for bots and equipment and ammo there is.  Horrible truth that it is, war is good for business in MMOs.

The real problem with walls is not what people did with them, it was that most of beta was locked out / innefecient to the average player / ninja miner / roamer / mission runner. If there had been more room in the game, they wouldn't have been the problem they became. The game world is rediculosuly small already, and walls just restricted movement in that small area. It didn't make the game bigger by doing this, it just made it more frustrating and conductive to one playstyle (island dweller) at the expensive of others. I think alot of islands are already very restrictive moving about them and people whent so far even to block off many externals/internals and only have one/no enterance to their island.

I imagine for the devs walls were just an experiment to help them ballance terraforming on gamma islands. I imagine they will allow for more control to the corps living there than they will on beta after these changes. I imagine alsbale will be able to do exactly what they did with walls when they move to the gamma islands with teraforming.  So while I agree with you about walls being a false sense of security, I think that level of island control needs to be reserved for gamma islands which include the risk of being more than 1 jump from alpha and the risk of your outpost being destroyed and won't make the game feel severely cramped.

Just my opinion anyway. I hope the devs leave terraforming rather unrestricted and allow players to do what they wish within reasonable limits, even if it makes their island very hard to roam. Its not like walls are all we will have to play with if terraforming / POS releases on schedule. I am looking past the wall nerf, foward to teraforming/POS.

With gamma and teraforming not a long way off, I don't think wall ballance will be very import for much longer.

Blowing stuff up is good.

If the focus of this game is SIMPLY to blow things up, then the game is no better then atari's "Alien Invaders" with slightly better graphics.

The reason I'm fighting so hard for this, is because if the involved corps do, everyone will just think they are QQ'ing. eHarm is walling FOR pvp, not against it. But all corps should have the Freedom to wall as they want, and it should be up to the PLAYERS to counter it, in the GAME, not in the forums or IRC.

These counters seem all viable but the point is nobody really cares to counter because it's boring, too time consuming and rarely ends with bot to bot engagements. I realised from day one that PvP is centre stage in this game, just look at the number of bots available for combat vs industrial. Walls also remove other players from the defence equation even if it has to hire merc corps. Devs added Walls as a cure, due lack of players available to defend, but it seems the cure ended up worse than the disease, hence the double nerf. Thinking they will nerf it again because there are players QQing just insults the Dev's intelligence.

You think you would have a choice to fight against those numbers if M2S decided to lock you out of your outposts Chris?

PvP on beta isn't optional if you wan't to live there even before this wall nerf.

Its all or nothing, they either go through extensive effort / extensive logout traps / constant camping your island, evict you from your outpost (which you still wouldn't fight for probobly), or don't get any fights/ganks of any kind.

There needs to be a middle ground and the new radius system gives that middle ground. There needs to be bots dying sometimes or else all NIC is just going to go into buying walls / probes  / bombs and the economy will suffer (and this very thing is happening right now)

PvP is optional on alpha.

Couldn´t agree more. But history has shown us, that this is the way it works, apparently.
...
and
+ 1 for OP

Exactly my point.

People can't just roam you now and then, they have to go absolutely all out.

In the end if walls were left like they were I couldn't see there being any kind of market at all left for anything. It prevents NIC from entering the economy and it also takes NIC out with it.

We are at a middle ground now where you are partially safe (and still more safe than you were months ago). You can mine/farm within the 3000m, go outside it be prepared to get organized.

When teraforming comes you will be able to do the exact same stuff Chris. The only difference is you will be vulnerable between alpha and your gamma station. Players will suffer losses there and it will stimulate the economy. They also risk losing their station, but they can still mine in peace if they have the political or military power.

With the small gameworld, low population and weak economy, the game wasn't ready for walls at the level they were introduced. When gamma comes, no one will even remember or care about any of this and will do the same stuff they did on beta but on gamma.