its nice to see that the side that hates the walls the most doesn't even know the effort it takes to build the walls.

i know how to build them and i know how to counter them, the walls was fine the first time they was implemented, they are still good, but lets just put them in the box with the new sand we did get, but the criers managed to wash away.

its nice that off all the goodies we have gotten that the stabs isnt nerfed yet.

+1 nerf stabs

mining AND defending with combat bots requires man-/girl-power wihich favors alliances and blobs and handicaps smaller corps... need to say more?

WOW, walls have really brought out the best in the game and the forums.

The game back in closed beta had police towers to protect care bears, new players etc.

It seems that walls were another idea to try and bring back the police towers mechanic, but giving the players the ability to control said mechanic.

Police towers were abandon because of them being exploited all the time; which always ended with one party laughing and the other party having their day ruined. Two sides of a coin here since you have two different types of play styles clashing.

Walls have brought back the two-sided coin. Care bears on one and the pvpers on the other.

If I had my way I would wish for walls to be on gamma and police towers to be placed back on alpha and beta islands again. This way we would have a transition of alpha (safe lots of rules with danger) to (beta danger with some rules) to gamma (with no rules).

At least police towers were black and white game play even if you could get suicide ganked under the them.

Again, you might want to check your reading comprehension, and based on the posts on this thread, the ones getting upset and emotional are Arga and Tamas.  Instead of reading what you want it to say into my posts, try reading what they actually say.  Everyone else can, and trying to spin it another way is just as transparent to them as it is to me.

And as of yet, I have seen no facts or hard data being presented by you to refute, therefore all you have voiced is opinion, unsubstantiated opinion at that.

The one thing I, you, and everyone else can do is look at the kb ( http://www.perp-kill.net/?m=list ), which is API pulled now and therefore shows a more accurate picture, and look at the decline in the number of pvp engagements, where what few engagements that have been sizable have occured, etc.  That is the objective data.

Personal Note:
The only trolling and spinning I have seen so far here and the other wall threads has been you and the other supporters of unlimited wallfare.

BTW, pointing at the most dangerous agents list and showing those 44 kills you mention, is rather erroneous, especially when you are able to see the kills and losses on the kb.  Good job pwning STC, low EP and tech group that was actively trying to get itself established on beta, but your own sense of entitlement I guess demaned that only you should have Donachov. And, as far as your ppl's allergations concerning the Donachov intrusion and "multiboxing", also I might add unsubstantiated, and false to boot, your forces EXCEEDED what we had on the field for DPS (objective evidence :  http://www.perp-kill.net/?m=related&id=238014 ), after which you all have promptly refused to engage us since.  This actually has nothing to do with the topic of discussion. and therefore irrelevant to this thread, but for some reason you felt compelled to bring it up. 

I have a low tolerance for b***s***, and when I see it, I do not hesitate to point it out.

@pus

Two Things:

Insert [Removed] Linked to player graph (Edit, with the information on active players levels outside of general chat and active subscriptions not being public neither your argument for reasoning behind the lack of pvp or MINE have the statistical data to back it and can only be reviewed by those who have that evidence for a final opinion on the cause and or route to the issue be identified.)

KB API-It has missed kills on already 3 or more days and is still in its testing phase or beta if you will and is not 100% accurate or uptodate as we have experienced.

Making accusations about accusations and further derailing this thread.

Done responding to troll or personal beefs as it can directed to CD and i will be glad to respond there.

@Graz

I dont quite think that's entirely what arga was trying to say you were actively doing and yes he has actually been pvping just on his combat toon.

As a noob I feel like I need to throw in my two cents on this subject.  I have very little experience with these walls, having only seen and had to react to a few.  Some of what I have to say has already been mentioned, but as I already have my notes I'll be restating it anyway.

I come from stEVE and only started to play Perpetuum around the time that the walls launched.  I see how the wall situation that was originally patched out may have been a problem, but I do think it would have naturally worked itself out as people don't want to maintain kilometers of mazes.  The walling around teleports would've worked itself out as well since they are easy even for a noob to destroy without risk.  I think waiting a bit longer to see how these things work out would be a more correct move.  I think the use of walls would evolve away fro the general consensus. I have a bit of a disagreement with how the devs are handling their deployment so far, but maybe they have more foresight than myself. 

I'd like to jump right into the changes to be implemented on the 9th.  I honestly do not understand how the developers' example picture in the newest dev blog could be considered a good idea.  Looking at that I think that there will be much less incentive to build walls as you protect fewer assets and are less able to control the terrain of a fight, which is the most important use for walls.  What we now may see is a medieval style fort wall, but since this wasn't considered when these beta outposts were implemented you won't have the terrain advantages that medieval forts were built upon...

This brings me to another point that has already been heavily discussed.  The use of walls in some beta territory gives capability to new player corps to hold and profit from owning an outpost.  The fact that I think has been missed in this discussion is that that gives them reason to play the game.  That is the key to a game:  bring people in and hold them, and I wholeheartedly believe that the current wall system is a better environment for that.  All they need is to feel safe inside the walls.  Maybe once they realize the truth of it they may aim more towards pvp and create more folks to fight with actively.

My final point is on the outpost linked wall-building.  I don't like that at all.  It greatly destroys, in my mind, the sandbox feel of walls.  Yeah, its generally a waste of time to build walls on an island that you don't and can't influence with them, but why shouldn't someone be able to go screw around on a beta island for a bit and put up walls?  Why shouldn't they be allowed to be used by attacking forces to block up the defenders entrances and force them to blow holes in their own walls or wait to see where the attackers come from?

Just a noob's insight on the situation... hope you all don't mind the wall o' text.

Never mind post retracted Logic will no longer prevail in this thread or about this topic

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ?

Well then I agree, the walls and probes gave the defenders first time in history for this game an advantage. Because the attacker for the most part has the advantage because what they do in hour forming up collaborating fits and attack plan the defenders has to do within 3 minutes when enemy arrives, which in most case doesn't happen, unless it's a small force, but large high tech forces more then likely wont get any action because it takes to long to plan and fit and assemble to counter.

Detectors are not an advantage that can be used by defenders?

WUT?! Defenders had past the ability to get 4-5 alts on tps ... problem solved. Now you can deploy the full island with detector probes, so no need alts on tps. Please don't let Perp to be Carebear Heaven on betas, couse you walled down a high epi field with walls that cannot be destroyed without mech squad (or a sequer - lithus).

I'm not against the walls, but now the 7,5U size of bombs and 1,5m price for 1 that cannot even destroy 1 wall is a joke. You can build focking long walls from 1,5m NIC. Solution : drop down the bombsize to 3.2U (yes that light ew mk2 could bring at least 1) and let 1 bomb destroy at least 80% HP of wall. Drop down the price to 700k-1m nic max.

Small scale PVP and artifact scanning is now pain in the *** ... and don't tell me that use bigger gang to have PVP when we have 40-50 peeps on general chat in peek times.

Tomorrows patch is the one right step towards living in a better perp again. Some things to PVPers some to carebears.

P.S. As Jelan wrote bring walls targetable ... that works too ...

First off, great post Lemon, I think for the first time in a long time a logical well thought out post has been made, and I agree

There are a few uses of the walls you did not include - writing you name in the sand, trolling enemies by blocking their roads; creating a path to access an area to attack it and then blocking the path as you leave to cover your escape, but in general I think you covered it very well.

We put a fair amount of effort and thought into the walls we had. They were never a substitute for pvp, the best we could ever hope for from them was to (a) alert us to incoming forces and (b) slow those forces down a little to give us time to respond.

For many of the veterans they have a slew of bots ready to go with good fits worked out long in advance, for many of our players they are busy putting some EP into some extension to allow them to fit what it is they are trying to equip, so it can take quite some time to muster a force to defend and the walls allowed us to do that.

Some people suggest using gate scouts instead of walls/probes, and yes we do when we are doing certain operations, but TOG policy is against using trial accounts for anything other than trailing a game, so it comes down to asking someone to cover a certain point for a certain period, rather than just making up another 3 email addresses and turning up the sound on a spare PC. Likewise to those who suggest the Alsbale population is not interested in pvp, we deliberately split TOG into two to allow those who did not want to pvp to live on alpha without feeling obliged to come over and fight, so everyone left in TOG is by definition interested in PvP.

<snip off topic>

I personally think that the walls were great, they were easily (but not trivially) counter able, and if people put together a well thought out defensive position the attackers would have to think through their attack and plan a little, as it should be.

The ability to just randomly build walls wherever you wanted (within reason) and also blow them up was a true sandbox feature, a bold move by the devs and really helped revitalise the Beta island population.

The walls-only-around-the-outpost-but-not-too-close-and-also-not-near-any-SAPs are more or less irrelevant and do not bring with them any of the control that the nearly-unlimited walling had, and also remove probes as any kind of early warning system, forcing people to afk at gates or spam trial accounts once again.