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Re: Terraforming

Arga wrote:

So, up to this point -

The only real OMG didn't you see that coming problem with terraforming seems to be using it to generate impassable terrain around all the external teleporters.

Is this really going to be an issue, and if so, what can the devs do (short of not releasing TF) to combat that possibilty?

I was thinking about this arga... first off we will not be able to terrform the beach line of an island. so all external TPs should be built with in 1000m of the shore line. this will stop a player from "mountain in" an External TP as an example...

Having this imo would be bad
Example A: https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1_B8 … hFtlg/edit

However by placing external TPs on or very close to the none terraformable beach line an island owner has to make a choice:
Example B: https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1cPh … edit?pli=1
OR
https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1DEy … 4a-dc/edit

the above 2 options still allow the person to mountain in a area, but he cant just do the easy option of locking off a few small areas around a TP. He has to choose.... do i built a massive mountain range or do a mountain off a smaller area that i can defend more easy. Both of these options still leave a portion of the island open.
Now not every Gamma island owner will "seal" off him self from the out side world. but for those that it should take good planning & a lot of effort.

any way thats my 2c so far smile

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

102 Reply by Arga

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Re: Terraforming

can't open those at work, but I think i get the general idea. But, you can still block off the beach with a series of walls.

So, you have this case, where either the attacking party has to have mechs to blow the walls and/or terraforming bots to change the landscape.

There's going to be a number of TP's. If left alone, eventually corps will get around to making some kind of hinderence at all the gates. But they also have to be working on mining and getting the pbs flattened too.

I can see corps dropping ALOT of walls on day 1, then terraforming around them.

If there are a lot of new islands, its possible that some corps will be left alone long enough to build massive fortresses. If there are only a few new islands, then there's just going to be too much traffic, thier time will be split between defense, building, and gathering.

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Re: Terraforming

ya im just changing the permissions .. forgot sad

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue
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Re: Terraforming

Arga wrote:

can't open those at work, but I think i get the general idea. But, you can still block off the beach with a series of walls.

So, you have this case, where either the attacking party has to have mechs to blow the walls and/or terraforming bots to change the landscape.

There's going to be a number of TP's. If left alone, eventually corps will get around to making some kind of hinderence at all the gates. But they also have to be working on mining and getting the pbs flattened too.

I can see corps dropping ALOT of walls on day 1, then terraforming around them.

If there are a lot of new islands, its possible that some corps will be left alone long enough to build massive fortresses. If there are only a few new islands, then there's just going to be too much traffic, thier time will be split between defense, building, and gathering.

well i guess here is the great unknown atm.... how slow will terraforming a mountain be lol. if its very hard & takes alot of work & time then sure i can see walls being built in their place as a short term fix. On the flit side tho a few bombs & u have a hole in the wall. & off you go.

Personally i can see 2 things happening.

First will be the group of people that use terraforming in a highly tactical manner & not mountaining them selves off but creating not only areas for PBS but also killing zones that invite the enemy into locations that favoure the defenders. (think of the way Japanese castles were designed.)

Second there will be those who wall / mountain them selves in as much as they can... like you would see in Castle design more in Europe. aka dont invite your enemy in.... do every thing you can to keep em out at all costs. these kind of tactics make for siege warfare.

Now as much as i would like to have player built TPs if they allow corps to mounting them selves in 100% & use mobile TPs to enter & exit their mounting kingdom then i would be against that.

BUT if player built TPs couldnt be jumped to with Mobile Tps then that could be a workable compromise. B4 you carebears start QQing read on smile

Player built TPs should be only usable in conjunction with another player TP. So you could think of it as a TP that can lead into your maintain top kingdom fortress.

I am still of the opinion tho that no player TPs should be introduced & instead have player built High ways That are upgradable to make them faster.

But if the  devs do give us player built TPs then they MUST put seriouse & Much long & hard thinking into what these can & cant do. Otherwise player TPs when used in conjunction with TF could very well kill off most roaming pvp on a gamma island.

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

105 Reply by Arga

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Re: Terraforming

Obi Wan Kenobi wrote:

kill off most roaming pvp on a gamma island.

... and that is the crux of the matter.

If gamma is still all about making the islands accessable for hit and run roaming groups, then I'm out.

We have another 4 to 6 weeks before we see gamma's live, if not longer.

I've played Roam-Online now for 13 months, soon to be a year and a half by the time gamma gets here. If its not about empire building, then this game is never going to have what I'm looking for.

The TF blog _seems_ to indicate that it could be about building something, and not just constant swarms of zulu's coming over your walls.

we'll see.

106 Reply by Obi Wan Kenobi (edited by Obi Wan Kenobi 2012-02-25 03:41:29)

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Re: Terraforming

Arga wrote:
Obi Wan Kenobi wrote:

kill off most roaming pvp on a gamma island.

... and that is the crux of the matter.

If gamma is still all about making the islands accessable for hit and run roaming groups, then I'm out.

We have another 4 to 6 weeks before we see gamma's live, if not longer.

I've played Roam-Online now for 13 months, soon to be a year and a half by the time gamma gets here. If its not about empire building, then this game is never going to have what I'm looking for.

The TF blog _seems_ to indicate that it could be about building something, and not just constant swarms of zulu's coming over your walls.

we'll see.

You can have both... but a game with none will be fail. I am an empire builder Arga dont get me wrong but its the skirmishes we have in this game that add so much to the pvp we have. Skirmish pvp is an integral part of this game... If you cant provide basic security then you (Im using the term 'you' in the none definite article aka not you personally) then the free for all islands shouldnt be where you live.

Empire building means showing YOU can control your lands not just from other empires but also more those marauding barbarian bands.
This is the role "roaming" or "Skirmish" PVP fills. If your corp can not do that then you have no place on a pvp island.

If gamma islands = carebear online when im sure the true pvpers  will just give the devs the middle finger & go to another game lol.

Perpetuum has some awesome pvp mechanics Devs... please dont kill them off or hide them under TF & PBS....
Other wise we endup with game play worse than EVEs where we see massive blobs become a must to engage in PVP.
To those who have Argas view point... remember some times its the small roaming gangs which are far easier to handle than the massive roaming squads.

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

107 Reply by Arga (edited by Arga 2012-02-25 04:33:57)

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Re: Terraforming

All I want to see, is the freedom to TF as players see fit. Don't read too much of that into what I may personally want to build. I don't see the server just letting any corp wall off an island and live in peace, they'll have to earn that, but I can see some corps trying it; and that's what i'm fighting for, the ability for the mechanics to allow those corps to atleast try to build mt doom.

I have my own ideas on how to slow down those pesky roamers, and yes, I want the advantage to be on my side. If they get through, good on them. But again, I don't want the tools to limit my creativity in stopping them, simply because it could 'ruin' the game for the players that like that part of it. In my view, they have all of beta to roam, if they want to roam gamma, it should be much harder for them. I WANT the large force to come, I'll have something there for them to destroy, I'm not going to be able to simply hole up in my outpost and let them run rampent; and I use "i" in the general term smile

Edit: And, if you want to make your island roam friendly, you can. Let the players decide, not the mechanics. And remember, there's only a limited movement you can TF, so even if you make it impassable, there probably can't be more then 3-4 cycles of a lower to bring it back to passable. It just means that most roaming gangs will get turned away, because they don't bring TF bots/fittings, but preplanned attacks will easily make a path through a land-wall; certainly in less than 1 min per tile.

108 Reply by Obi Wan Kenobi (edited by Obi Wan Kenobi 2012-02-25 08:06:37)

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Re: Terraforming

Arga wrote:

All I want to see, is the freedom to TF as players see fit. Don't read too much of that into what I may personally want to build. I don't see the server just letting any corp wall off an island and live in peace, they'll have to earn that, but I can see some corps trying it; and that's what i'm fighting for, the ability for the mechanics to allow those corps to atleast try to build mt doom.

I have my own ideas on how to slow down those pesky roamers, and yes, I want the advantage to be on my side. If they get through, good on them. But again, I don't want the tools to limit my creativity in stopping them, simply because it could 'ruin' the game for the players that like that part of it. In my view, they have all of beta to roam, if they want to roam gamma, it should be much harder for them. I WANT the large force to come, I'll have something there for them to destroy, I'm not going to be able to simply hole up in my outpost and let them run rampent; and I use "i" in the general term smile

Edit: And, if you want to make your island roam friendly, you can. Let the players decide, not the mechanics. And remember, there's only a limited movement you can TF, so even if you make it impassable, there probably can't be more then 3-4 cycles of a lower to bring it back to passable. It just means that most roaming gangs will get turned away, because they don't bring TF bots/fittings, but preplanned attacks will easily make a path through a land-wall; certainly in less than 1 min per tile.

indeed when it comes to TF the 2 rules about 1000m around TPs & no Tf on the shore line.. I to want to see people be able to have the freedom to do what every they want. But Its the things that come with PBS that must be very carefully thought about.

See on its own TF wont be able to effectively cut you off from the out side world. Sure you can use a mobile TP to get out of your "safe zone" but to get back in you need to have made a small road in thru your maintains (personally i think doing this kind of road into your inner kingdom would be cool big_smile )

But what would be an issue is if something like Player built TPs come in now you may not need that access road. I say "may not need" coz again this depends heavily on what an item like a Player TP can & cant do.
My point isnt so much on mountaining your self off... Its more toward the DEVs.. To be very carefull with the abilities they give us with PBS & what those PBS can do.

I look forward to braking into peoples mountain kingdoms & burning their villages & takeing their women as slaves yarr & having my way with your sheep! i mean kangaroo! tongue

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

109 Reply by Burial (edited by Burial 2012-02-25 08:54:13)

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Re: Terraforming

I agree with Arga and I think it would be pretty pointless and, in the end, ruin terraforming to try and fight with what players can and can not do. Just add the tools to effectively counter these kinds of landscapes.

Flying bots that can haul other players.
Deployable elevator mechanisms.
Deployable bridges.
Very close range personal teleporters.

110 Reply by Homer J Simpson (edited by Homer J Simpson 2013-04-14 07:48:52)

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Re: Terraforming

oops I BUMPED THE COFFIN DAD!

111 Reply by Burial (edited by Burial 2013-04-14 09:23:50)

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Re: Terraforming

I see that the issue is turrents and terraforming used together. Alone they are not that big issue. Adding a new variable to the buildable and not buildable tile calculations would diminish the problem quite a bit.

In essence, the variable would be Ground Instability and it would be calculated based on the steepness of the adjacent tiles compared to each other. Whenever the steepness is more than, lets say, 45%, the upper part gets blocked for building(because ground is not stable for heavy structures - logical and fits well). The bigger the difference between heights, more tiles get unbuildable flag.(Once you have 500m+ straight wall, you get 5 tiles or 50m not buildable area next to the edge)

In the end, it would not allow buildings to be built on very steep ramps and walls, and to make it even further, the calculations could even make the area not walkable by bigger bots once certain steepness is archived.

You can still build straight walls but it would not be possible to build turrents on them and when taken further, bots couldn't even walk on them if the steepness is high and wall isn't wide enough.

Adding such game changing mechanic to the game at this point is another story..

112 Reply by Doek

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Re: Terraforming

I would get rid of steep terraforming altogether by either limiting the slope you can terraform, or simply limit how much you can change the slope tile to tile.

This will make terraforming curvy (getting rid of weird horizontal (or rather, on vertical walls) plant growth, for example) and fortresses take up way more space, making your island less useful if you decide to turtle up.

Or, fix the textures and start looking at limiting buildable area based on how you terraform (essentially what Burial suggests).

Perpetuum Killboard

113 Reply by Tux

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Re: Terraforming

I see different ways to "fix" TF for people concerned with the current state of mile high walls and the ugly tile stretch.

I can say this from experience if you limit the slopes, build-able areas in relation to near by tile slopes, or any version or combination it will just cause players to build more to achieve the same purpose.

Would players rather have?

High walls (taking less space of the island overall)

or

layers (rolling hills) of impassable terrain then lines of turrets >> more rolling hills (impassable) >> then more turrets?

same effect as high walls but takes much more space....
effectively you would have 2KM dead zones around anything worth protecting ...

i agree the tile stretch is ugly ... but it was around way before gamma ... just take a look around all of the islands will large hills and canyons the tile stretch is present on every island alpha, beta and gamma

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.
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Re: Terraforming

With the current amount of development done, I just don't see how it can be fixed in a reasonable time-frame without being a) rushed & buggy b) broken & exploitable.

TF should never have been put in like this, but it is what it is. It's just something that will have to be fixed after Steam, if it doesn't shut down before that.

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115 Reply by Vroom

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Re: Terraforming

Wipe and relaunch.

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Re: Terraforming

Unban Styx & make him Project Manager or w/e role it is in hungarian that makes the decisions.

Then wipe & relaunch.

lol

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117 Reply by Martha Stuart (edited by Martha Stuart 2013-04-16 23:39:20)

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Re: Terraforming

I firmly believe a wipe and re-launch will not solve anything, and here is why.  For a server population of 200, yes Gamma is extremely over powered.  But this game, and its mechanics, can't be designed around 200 people.  Let's say the Steam launch brings in 5k-10k new players.  Lets just say that hypothetically, these players divide relatively equally among 5 power blocks.  10k players divided evenly is 2000 players per power block.  Now, think about the fleet sizes we will be seeing if 10K players do come into the game.  We wont be talking 40-50 bot fleets anymore.  Its gonna be 500+ bot fleets. I don't care how much terraforming you have done, or how many turrets you have.  There is not a single gamma base in this game, that could stand up against a 500 bot fleet.  This game has to be designed with large numbers of players in mind.  Just because Gamma is overpowered now, does not mean it's broken.

118 Reply by Homer J Simpson (edited by Homer J Simpson 2013-04-17 04:30:45)

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Re: Terraforming

those numbers IF this game ever gets that big are a long way off. Mechanics thats only work properly when stupidly large numbers are involved mean the mechanic does work.

Not to mention this game suffers so bad when even 50+ get into a fight fuuu

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Re: Terraforming

The game isn't designed for 500+ bot fleets either because the interference alone would kill you.

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120 Reply by Martha Stuart (edited by Martha Stuart 2013-04-17 19:40:07)

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Re: Terraforming

At this point the steam launch is an all in situation.  If more people don't sub, the game dies.  if they do, it will succeed.  From a business standpoint, they have to develop the mechanics for a larger audience.  Interference, gamma bases, etc etc.  All of this must be developed and directed towards a large number of people.

According to valve, in may 2010, there were 20 million unique active accounts on steam (This number has only gotten bigger in the last 3 years, I just couldn't find the statistics for the current year) .  Hypothetically, lets say .1% try perp,  and lets say 25% of those who try it, sub.  .001 x 20,000,000 is 20K people.  25% of those people sub.  That's an influx of 5000 players.  Now, those numbers are hypothetical.  But they are also very reasonable.  This game needs to be designed with those kind of numbers in mind.  Because if its not, and those players do come, they game will be far more broken when the players show up, then it is now.  And if the players don't come, well you all know what will happen then.  We are currently in an "All or nothing" situation.  Because of that, the design of the game has to be towards larger numbers of players.

@homer

10K players is a stupidly large number of players?  I think you are grossly underestimating the number of people that play games.  There are currently 250K people playing Dota 2 RIGHT NOW (thats not total players, thats players currently playing, at this very moment).  There are 45K players playing TF2 RIGHT NOW.  I understand this game is not a AAA title, but 10K players is not a stupidly large number of players.  And this game is going to get a HUGE jump start in the advertising sector when it launches on steam (seeing how there was no advertising to begin with).  Think about how many people came into the game when RPS started to do its articles.  not to mention  the EX perp players that will come back to the game when the population grows.

121 Reply by Tund Bungler (edited by Tund Bungler 2013-04-17 19:40:18)

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Re: Terraforming

Martha Stuart wrote:

At this point the steam launch is an all in situation.  If more people don't sub, the game dies.  if they do, it will succeed.  From a business standpoint, they have to develop the mechanics for a larger audience.  Interference, gamma bases, etc etc.  All of this must be developed and directed towards a large number of people.

According to valve, in may 2010, there were 20 million unique active accounts on steam (This number has only gotten bigger in the last 3 years, I just couldn't find the statistics for the current year) .  Hypothetically, lets say .1% try perp,  and lets say 25% of those who try it, sub.  .001 x 20,000,000 is 20K people.  25% of those people sub.  That's an influx of 5000 players.  Now, those numbers are hypothetical.  But they are also very reasonable.  This game needs to be designed with those kind of numbers in mind.  Because if its not, and those players do come, they game will be far more broken when the players show up, then it is now.  And if the players don't come, well you all know what will happen then.  We are currently in an "All or nothing" situation.  Because of that, the design of the game has to be towards larger numbers of players.

@homer

10K players is a stupidly large number of players?  I think you are grossly underestimating the number of people that play games.  There are currently 250K people playing Dota 2 RIGHT NOW (thats not total players, thats players currently playing, at this very moment).  There are 45K players playing TF2 RIGHT NOW.  I understand this game is not a AAA title, but 10K players is not a stupidly large number of players.  And this game is going to get a HUGE jump start in the advertising sector when it launches on steam (seeing how there was no advertising to begin with).  Think about how many people came into the game when RPS started to do its articles.


Dozens of folks try this game every week, none of them stay. You think simply getting a bunch of noobs at once will change that? I suspect the problems lie more in the game itself, not player base. Remember, this game HAD thousands of players, and they left for one reason or another.

122 Reply by Martha Stuart (edited by Martha Stuart 2013-04-17 19:44:30)

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Re: Terraforming

so you are saying that in a world of 7 billion people, there are not 5K people like you or me that would play this game?  most of the people that stop playing this game, do so because the population dropped to unsuitable levels.

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Re: Terraforming

Martha Stuart wrote:

so you are saying that in a world of 7 billion people, there are not 5K people like you or me that would play this game?  most of the people that stop playing this game, do so because the population dropped to unsuitable levels.


What made the people leave when the game's population was at its highest? This is the question you need to be asking, because the problem still hasnt been fixed.

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Re: Terraforming

Easy Cir trolls the noobs. But that is high jacking the thread. Get back to terraforming.

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Re: Terraforming

Martha Stuart wrote:

so you are saying that in a world of 7 billion people, there are not 5K people like you or me that would play this game?  most of the people that stop playing this game, do so because the population dropped to unsuitable levels.

Logically, there obviously aren't because the population went down from ~1000 concurrently online to the same 100-200 people twice (this was before your time). According to the forum tally, 27,682 accounts were created? There's a steady stream of people trying the game out every day, unfortunately few if anybody sticks with it after they get past getting into their mech.

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