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Re: Terraforming

Siddy wrote:

I love how people theorize about OP defense when no one have even presented a tangible argument of what "OP" defense constitutes of.

So far, the only "op" defense has been a defense what makes it just impossible to shoot at the structure. If the bases are killable and the owners of the base have big enough "fan base", i am sure the problem of "op" defense becomes quickly moot.
Walls and some, hypothetical, AI defense turrets can never replace players when it comes down to the business.

+1

it always comes down to players doing the defense, because attackers can always bring TF gear and change impassable to passable, blow up walls, or whatever.

I think its important to understand if Gamma is going to be the start of empires, or if it's supposed to be vulnerable to small group roaming.

If gamma is just a gateway to the undiscovered weatlth of nia that will be exploited on a grand scale, then its OK to continue to limit the extents to which players will be able to modify the land. If gamma islands are meant to be player owned, occupied, and defended, then the players need to have free reign, even if that means they TF off the teleporters and create a private Island. Its OK, because it would be up to the rest of the server to determine if they wanted to let them live in peace... to maybe emerge months later as the flamed winged butterfly of total world domination.

Sun and I were talking about this in IRC, there will be NO seeding outposts. No teleporters, no charges, no market other than what the players put in there. That means that things like TF charges will need to be purchased elsewhere, and transported in, like walls (and charges to repair walls). So making it impossible to get in/out would only last as long as your stocks did, then your walls would fall down by themselves.

The big question will be if there's enough gamma to go around at first, for the 3 or 4 alliances that would be attempting to take them, or will it be musical chairs, making a constant fight to even get a foothold on these islands.

52 Reply by Siddy (edited by Siddy 2012-02-16 23:34:40)

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Re: Terraforming

Since the gamma islands are going to be quasi procedural and fully dynamic, devs can poop out as much of them as we need or hardware can handle.

I dont see a real estate becoming a big issue in this matter

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Re: Terraforming

Arga, stop writing a water. Just because.

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Re: Terraforming

Alex, that was lost in translation...

I can't stop posting wink

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Re: Terraforming

Your posts are empty, as usual. Don't waste your energy.

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Re: Terraforming

Thanks for the troll Alex, but I'll continue to post water or urine as required

57 Reply by Inda (edited by Inda 2012-02-17 12:07:29)

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Re: Terraforming

About Changing ore deposits:
Can we use 2 type at the same time?
I mean what is stayed that is has less ore what is changing it has more ore, let the people do both things.
Just mark areas what change and what not. Or will be changing spot and not at the same time and the hole island.

About non pvp Gamma island:
I am definately on it with restrictions, because we need people ingame and we can choose that way who want to "elite pvp game" but this game is good enough to let people just play who rarely play. The last is better for everyone I think. The first is now, that is why we have less people (in my mind).

About restrictions on pvp Gammas:
I fear a bit if we dont find the right rate of restrictions and options can be a chaos. So thinking twice(2) before implementations.

And for me a really interesting thing/question why I will go to other Gamma to shoot the enemy (That question is actually true the current system) I can go just because I want to annoying the enemy because I dont want to live there and anything. And then if you do a "bunker" like now TOG, MORTE did with walls, you will never catch who dont want to play you. Basicaly now the miners is in safe place. That is not soo bad I am on not killing miners, but you need to see there is no reason to go there just for play some pvp. And as I see in my corp if you dont need to do that, many people wont come because they ask "why go there?".
Maybe kill some PBS building is enough to go there but I am not sure of this.
And there is a HUGE timezone barrier also :S

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18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD
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Re: Terraforming

One more idea:

I would like to see "roads" or something similiar, because of block plants to grow here or something I didnt thinging that off just hint the idea, maybe can be really expensive or find any other solution dont block the hole island.

I think that can happen if the "ore generator" can check there is a building or not the plants should be also check.

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD
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Re: Terraforming

Inda wrote:

About Changing ore deposits:
And for me a really interesting thing/question why I will go to other Gamma to shoot the enemy (That question is actually true the current system) I can go just because I want to annoying the enemy because I dont want to live there and anything.

This is a topic i have thought about as well. each Island or groups of islands need to have some either other Islands dont have or have in varying quantities. What ever it is corps must be willing to kill for it. It has to appeal to the greed within smile 

Having Islands like we have atm might be "fair" but it doesnt give you much long term to fight over.

War is a combo of many things like Land, politics, Ego, Resources or what ever else you can think of.
So far this game has only had Wars for Ego, Land & politics... But if i look at the map right now, Why would we want to invade any islands? those who live on beta have the land.

I hear some people say "but beta has epi" yes true. But epi makes personal wealth.
What we need is more reasons for Corps to go to war. One way that could be done is thru Income that can Be Made on a corp level.

just my 2 cents smile

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue
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Re: Terraforming

Guys, Gamma will be the same as it is with walls.

Those who want pvp will Terraform to allow it and invite it.

Those who want to carebear will make Helmsdeep.

I for one know that if i get the chance, my island will invite pvp but i will have a cool base at the same time.

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Re: Terraforming

Restricted PVP gamma islands are viable when corp wars become reality.

The corp wars can be tied to the BPS system, this way you cant abuse corp war system like in eve.

It would be really bad idea to allow 100% safe ways to run PBS, even if the restricted island are castrated version of the real gammas.




@ Lemon

Helms deep is virtually a way to say: look at us, we have juicy things in here!
Best way to protect assets that CAN be killed is to look inconspicuous.

The beta walls work, because you are only protecting your arse, and walls give you ample time to evacuate that arse to safety. I doubt you can defend an immovable egg basket by sticking your head in to the sand and pretend the enemy is not there.

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Re: Terraforming

Inda brings up a good point, about TF a path and then have plants grow on it.

A 'pavement' tile would be nice. Can only be placed on level ground, easily killed by chem bombs, that blocks plants from growing. It's more decorative then functional in that sense. But being able to build actual pavement looking roads like we see in Tellesis would be a nice touch.

As a side bonus, as the blog says any TR tries to clear the tile first, but that it takes a lot longer, so paved roads would still be subject to TF, it would just take longer, making roads harder to block offensively, but also harder for defense to put up speed bumps, making the roads more attractive tactical routes for both sides.

@siddy  Agree'd, helmsdeep was a coffin as much as it was a defense. If the elves hadn't shown up, meaning if you don't have enough defenders in a castle, Mordor would have over-run it long before sunrise on the 3rd day. It can however allow a smaller force to hold off a larger force until reinforcements arrive.

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Re: Terraforming

Arga wrote:

Inda brings up a good point, about TF a path and then have plants grow on it.

A 'pavement' tile would be nice. Can only be placed on level ground, easily killed by chem bombs, that blocks plants from growing. It's more decorative then functional in that sense. But being able to build actual pavement looking roads like we see in Tellesis would be a nice touch.

As a side bonus, as the blog says any TR tries to clear the tile first, but that it takes a lot longer, so paved roads would still be subject to TF, it would just take longer, making roads harder to block offensively, but also harder for defense to put up speed bumps, making the roads more attractive tactical routes for both sides.

This is actually a really good idea i like it alot. Hope the devs see it smile

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

64 Reply by Tux (edited by Tux 2012-02-18 21:21:32)

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Re: Terraforming

Please no [Gamma/Alpha] Islands. You may think this is a good Idea now but it will get abused to no end. Any PBS must have the ability to be destroyed by other players, right here you have a opening for abuse when placing PBS structures on non PVP islands. Having people place  PBS’s on non PVP islands will only open them up to get ganked by any random dude that wants to because he will not flag as he shoots the PBS until its destroyed.

Who in this game will deploy what is going to be a very expensive item(PBS = NIC Sink) on an Island and have people come destroy it every day without the opportunity to defend it. In this situation I would just bring a squad in unopposed (it being non pvp island and all) run right up to the PBS and shoot it in the face. Boom its dead.

An alternative to what I have described would be to make the player attacking the PBS flag. This would be a possible alternative but people are already crying about “log traps”, this will just harvest even more tears. lol

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.
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Re: Terraforming

Tux wrote:

Please no [Gamma/Alpha] Islands. You may think this is a good Idea now but it will get abused to no end. Any PBS must have the ability to be destroyed by other players, right here you have a opening for abuse when placing PBS structures on non PVP islands. Having people place  PBS’s on non PVP islands will only open them up to get ganked by any random dude that wants to because he will not flag as he shoots the PBS until its destroyed.

Who in this game will deploy what is going to be a very expensive item(PBS = NIC Sink) on an Island and have people come destroy it every day without the opportunity to defend it. In this situation I would just bring a squad in unopposed (it being non pvp island and all) run right up to the PBS and shoot it in the face. Boom its dead.

An alternative to what I have described would be to make the player attacking the PBS flag. This would be a possible alternative but people are already crying about “log traps”, this will just harvest even more tears. lol

There are many solutions to this problem and one way is to enable war declaration between corps to be able to attack PBS in alpha a neat solution working in a famous space mmo. This might not be the best for this game but it all depends on the PBS mechanics.

Just rejecting the idea of safe gamma islands just because it might need check and balances, a headache and a few nerfs after implementation. If that's the attitude then this game is not going anywhere.

RIP PERPETUUM

66 Reply by Tux (edited by Tux 2012-02-18 23:13:26)

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Re: Terraforming

Celebro wrote:
Tux wrote:

Please no [Gamma/Alpha] Islands. You may think this is a good Idea now but it will get abused to no end. Any PBS must have the ability to be destroyed by other players, right here you have a opening for abuse when placing PBS structures on non PVP islands. Having people place  PBS’s on non PVP islands will only open them up to get ganked by any random dude that wants to because he will not flag as he shoots the PBS until its destroyed.

Who in this game will deploy what is going to be a very expensive item(PBS = NIC Sink) on an Island and have people come destroy it every day without the opportunity to defend it. In this situation I would just bring a squad in unopposed (it being non pvp island and all) run right up to the PBS and shoot it in the face. Boom its dead.

An alternative to what I have described would be to make the player attacking the PBS flag. This would be a possible alternative but people are already crying about “log traps”, this will just harvest even more tears. lol

There are many solutions to this problem and one way is to enable war declaration between corps to be able to attack PBS in alpha a neat solution working in a famous space mmo. This might not be the best for this game but it all depends on the PBS mechanics.

Just rejecting the idea of safe gamma islands just because it might need check and balances, a headache and a few nerfs after implementation. If that's the attitude then this game is not going anywhere.


I only want to game to be successful. My opinion is that this game will not be successful if you can do everything in "safe locations" there has to be a point at which if you want to achieve higher ("end game") content you must accept substantially higher levels of risk just like the risk of mining Epitron. this means you need "true" beta / gamma Islands and content that only exists in those areas. PBS and TF should be in this area. otherwise its just a kiddy fun park with no real risk.

Alpha should be designed as a starting place for players to gather and build their experience in order to survive in beta. It should not be the alternative to beta, like some games that have pvp and non pvp servers with the exact same content on each server.

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

67 Reply by Inspiration (edited by Inspiration 2012-02-18 23:19:29)

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Re: Terraforming

I dont like the formation of new islands at all, for several reasons:

* Players get too spread out, making interaction rarer;
* It adds a lot of new resources to the game (ores, plants, NPC), wrecking professions that rely on working those resources and killing off even more market interaction.
* It is an excuse to neglect beta as i see it and what that could become.

The concept of terraforming and player build structures is all fine, but please make it a beta only thing centered around enhancing and defending outposts and maybe smaller structures of similar kind. Oh...and we hanebt forgotten about walls already, have we?

68 Reply by Sundial (edited by Sundial 2012-02-18 23:23:53)

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Re: Terraforming

Inspiration wrote:

I dont like the formation of new islands at all, for several reasons:

* Players get too spread out, making interaction rarer;
* It adds a lot of new resources to the game (ores, plants, NPC), wrecking professions that rely on working those resources and killing off even more market interaction.
* It is an excuse to neglect beta as i see it and what that could become.

The concept of terraforming and player build structures is all fine, but please make it a beta only thing centered around enhancing and defending outposts and maybe smaller structures of similar kind. Oh...and we hanebt forgotten about walls already, have we?

1. Players will concentrate in certain areas
2. It gives corps place to grow without constant harassment that only takes 1 jump.
3. Beta will still be an important source of epriton and as a place to roam / do ninja ops
4. Logistics will have to pass through beta to get to gamma potentially creating pvp / piracy options.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.
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Re: Terraforming

Tux

Why I saying about Gamma Alphas because I would like to see a toy for "carebeers" also, so yes Gamma Betas should focus to pvp but If we can find a solution to let people building things just for fun that also will be good for the community. More people will come more people will pvp thats my idea.

I bet and hope the DEVs can find the solution.

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18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD

70 Reply by Inspiration (edited by Inspiration 2012-02-18 23:33:10)

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Re: Terraforming

Sundial wrote:
Inspiration wrote:

I dont like the formation of new islands at all, for several reasons:

* Players get too spread out, making interaction rarer;
* It adds a lot of new resources to the game (ores, plants, NPC), wrecking professions that rely on working those resources and killing off even more market interaction.
* It is an excuse to neglect beta as i see it and what that could become.

The concept of terraforming and player build structures is all fine, but please make it a beta only thing centered around enhancing and defending outposts and maybe smaller structures of similar kind. Oh...and we hanebt forgotten about walls already, have we?

1. Players will concentrate in certain areas
2. It gives corps place to grow without constant harassment that only takes 1 jump.
3. Beta will still be an important source of epriton and as a place to roam / do ninja ops

1. They always will, that we can agree on, but their distance will be magnified!
2. That is not rational, it takes countless jumps and loads of walking hindered by walls as it is to get anywhere!
3. I assumed gamma would have epriton, just the same, maybe I am wrong on that, but you know what that means don't you? Now PvP corporations can have their own island with all the ores they require and mine them pretty safely. The interaction between Alpha and Beta will be broken and all ore prices, bar epriton will drop like a brick. If on the other hand, Gamma islands do have epiriton, things are even more skewed.

Guess we will have to see, but I for one am absolutely not looking forward to new islands. The recent track records on rolling out new game items such as, walls, bombs and before that, the intrusion mechanic, hasn't been exactly good. None of it is anywhere near its potential and along the way in several cases have been game breaking.

71 Reply by Sundial (edited by Sundial 2012-02-18 23:38:19)

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Re: Terraforming

With scarabs logistics have become extremely simple. Yes you will have to escort stuff in and out, but you won't be as easy to harass because you will be much farther out. Also you hanv't thought the inter island teleporters...

If corps are constantly harassed living on beta, they won't be able to produce much, and if they can't produce much, they won't be able to PvP. The increased distance will help with this.

PvP hotpost island will develop based on who lives where.

The game world is way too small as it is.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.
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Re: Terraforming

Sundial wrote:

The game world is way too small as it is.

We have to agree to disagree on this....its not the size, but how ... smile

Besides a lot op production today is done alpha anyway, as it is much safer and titan ore is there in large quantities. And why would you put all important assess in one risky basket? I think no1 would unless absolutely guaranteed victory!

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Re: Terraforming

Arga wrote:

I think its important to understand if Gamma is going to be the start of empires, or if it's supposed to be vulnerable to small group roaming.

Why would the two be mutually exclusive? Unless you want to suggest that you can build an empire whilst being unable to defend yourself against five guys roaming?

I must admit I'm more interested in the next part of this blog which will hopefully deal with PBS, but in terms of terraforming, I'll just say that shaping the environment to your advantage is one thing, asking for terrain to replace the need to defend yourself is quite another.

Since the introduction of Intrusion 2.0 previous groups have fragmented to the point where being able to field a defence force of more than 5-6 ppl seems to be unusual. My main hope is that both terraforming and PBS will reverse that trend somewhat, giving more reasons for players to group up and maybe play this MMO with other people!!!!!!

Finally, after the whole walls thing, maybe its better to start small and build up? Rather than giving players the ability to do anything to their Island then realising a week later that it was probably a bad idea

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Re: Terraforming

Sundial wrote:

With scarabs logistics have become extremely simple. Yes you will have to escort stuff in and out, but you won't be as easy to harass because you will be much farther out. Also you hanv't thought the inter island teleporters...

If corps are constantly harassed living on beta, they won't be able to produce much, and if they can't produce much, they won't be able to PvP. The increased distance will help with this.

PvP hotpost island will develop based on who lives where.

The game world is way too small as it is.

I agree with ya here mate... make a game world bigger than what you need & let to population grow into it

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue
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Re: Terraforming

Obi Wan Kenobi wrote:
Sundial wrote:

With scarabs logistics have become extremely simple. Yes you will have to escort stuff in and out, but you won't be as easy to harass because you will be much farther out. Also you hanv't thought the inter island teleporters...

If corps are constantly harassed living on beta, they won't be able to produce much, and if they can't produce much, they won't be able to PvP. The increased distance will help with this.

PvP hotpost island will develop based on who lives where.

The game world is way too small as it is.

I agree with ya here mate... make a game world bigger than what you need & let to population grow into it

+1 both comments

RIP PERPETUUM