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Re: Terraforming

Arga wrote:

So, up to this point -

The only real OMG didn't you see that coming problem with terraforming seems to be using it to generate impassable terrain around all the external teleporters.

Is this really going to be an issue, and if so, what can the devs do (short of not releasing TF) to combat that possibilty?

I was thinking about this arga... first off we will not be able to terrform the beach line of an island. so all external TPs should be built with in 1000m of the shore line. this will stop a player from "mountain in" an External TP as an example...

Having this imo would be bad
Example A: https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1_B8 … hFtlg/edit

However by placing external TPs on or very close to the none terraformable beach line an island owner has to make a choice:
Example B: https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1cPh … edit?pli=1
OR
https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1DEy … 4a-dc/edit

the above 2 options still allow the person to mountain in a area, but he cant just do the easy option of locking off a few small areas around a TP. He has to choose.... do i built a massive mountain range or do a mountain off a smaller area that i can defend more easy. Both of these options still leave a portion of the island open.
Now not every Gamma island owner will "seal" off him self from the out side world. but for those that it should take good planning & a lot of effort.

any way thats my 2c so far smile

"For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times. Before the Empire."

"The Sand People are easily startled, but they will soon be back, and in greater numbers."

102 Reply by Arga

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Re: Terraforming

can't open those at work, but I think i get the general idea. But, you can still block off the beach with a series of walls.

So, you have this case, where either the attacking party has to have mechs to blow the walls and/or terraforming bots to change the landscape.

There's going to be a number of TP's. If left alone, eventually corps will get around to making some kind of hinderence at all the gates. But they also have to be working on mining and getting the pbs flattened too.

I can see corps dropping ALOT of walls on day 1, then terraforming around them.

If there are a lot of new islands, its possible that some corps will be left alone long enough to build massive fortresses. If there are only a few new islands, then there's just going to be too much traffic, thier time will be split between defense, building, and gathering.

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Re: Terraforming

ya im just changing the permissions .. forgot sad

"For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times. Before the Empire."

"The Sand People are easily startled, but they will soon be back, and in greater numbers."
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Re: Terraforming

Arga wrote:

can't open those at work, but I think i get the general idea. But, you can still block off the beach with a series of walls.

So, you have this case, where either the attacking party has to have mechs to blow the walls and/or terraforming bots to change the landscape.

There's going to be a number of TP's. If left alone, eventually corps will get around to making some kind of hinderence at all the gates. But they also have to be working on mining and getting the pbs flattened too.

I can see corps dropping ALOT of walls on day 1, then terraforming around them.

If there are a lot of new islands, its possible that some corps will be left alone long enough to build massive fortresses. If there are only a few new islands, then there's just going to be too much traffic, thier time will be split between defense, building, and gathering.

well i guess here is the great unknown atm.... how slow will terraforming a mountain be lol. if its very hard & takes alot of work & time then sure i can see walls being built in their place as a short term fix. On the flit side tho a few bombs & u have a hole in the wall. & off you go.

Personally i can see 2 things happening.

First will be the group of people that use terraforming in a highly tactical manner & not mountaining them selves off but creating not only areas for PBS but also killing zones that invite the enemy into locations that favoure the defenders. (think of the way Japanese castles were designed.)

Second there will be those who wall / mountain them selves in as much as they can... like you would see in Castle design more in Europe. aka dont invite your enemy in.... do every thing you can to keep em out at all costs. these kind of tactics make for siege warfare.

Now as much as i would like to have player built TPs if they allow corps to mounting them selves in 100% & use mobile TPs to enter & exit their mounting kingdom then i would be against that.

BUT if player built TPs couldnt be jumped to with Mobile Tps then that could be a workable compromise. B4 you carebears start QQing read on smile

Player built TPs should be only usable in conjunction with another player TP. So you could think of it as a TP that can lead into your maintain top kingdom fortress.

I am still of the opinion tho that no player TPs should be introduced & instead have player built High ways That are upgradable to make them faster.

But if the  devs do give us player built TPs then they MUST put seriouse & Much long & hard thinking into what these can & cant do. Otherwise player TPs when used in conjunction with TF could very well kill off most roaming pvp on a gamma island.

"For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times. Before the Empire."

"The Sand People are easily startled, but they will soon be back, and in greater numbers."

105 Reply by Arga

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Re: Terraforming

Obi Wan Kenobi wrote:

kill off most roaming pvp on a gamma island.

... and that is the crux of the matter.

If gamma is still all about making the islands accessable for hit and run roaming groups, then I'm out.

We have another 4 to 6 weeks before we see gamma's live, if not longer.

I've played Roam-Online now for 13 months, soon to be a year and a half by the time gamma gets here. If its not about empire building, then this game is never going to have what I'm looking for.

The TF blog _seems_ to indicate that it could be about building something, and not just constant swarms of zulu's coming over your walls.

we'll see.

106 Reply by Obi Wan Kenobi (edited by Obi Wan Kenobi 2012-02-25 04:41:29)

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Re: Terraforming

Arga wrote:
Obi Wan Kenobi wrote:

kill off most roaming pvp on a gamma island.

... and that is the crux of the matter.

If gamma is still all about making the islands accessable for hit and run roaming groups, then I'm out.

We have another 4 to 6 weeks before we see gamma's live, if not longer.

I've played Roam-Online now for 13 months, soon to be a year and a half by the time gamma gets here. If its not about empire building, then this game is never going to have what I'm looking for.

The TF blog _seems_ to indicate that it could be about building something, and not just constant swarms of zulu's coming over your walls.

we'll see.

You can have both... but a game with none will be fail. I am an empire builder Arga dont get me wrong but its the skirmishes we have in this game that add so much to the pvp we have. Skirmish pvp is an integral part of this game... If you cant provide basic security then you (Im using the term 'you' in the none definite article aka not you personally) then the free for all islands shouldnt be where you live.

Empire building means showing YOU can control your lands not just from other empires but also more those marauding barbarian bands.
This is the role "roaming" or "Skirmish" PVP fills. If your corp can not do that then you have no place on a pvp island.

If gamma islands = carebear online when im sure the true pvpers  will just give the devs the middle finger & go to another game lol.

Perpetuum has some awesome pvp mechanics Devs... please dont kill them off or hide them under TF & PBS....
Other wise we endup with game play worse than EVEs where we see massive blobs become a must to engage in PVP.
To those who have Argas view point... remember some times its the small roaming gangs which are far easier to handle than the massive roaming squads.

"For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times. Before the Empire."

"The Sand People are easily startled, but they will soon be back, and in greater numbers."

107 Reply by Arga (edited by Arga 2012-02-25 05:33:57)

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Re: Terraforming

All I want to see, is the freedom to TF as players see fit. Don't read too much of that into what I may personally want to build. I don't see the server just letting any corp wall off an island and live in peace, they'll have to earn that, but I can see some corps trying it; and that's what i'm fighting for, the ability for the mechanics to allow those corps to atleast try to build mt doom.

I have my own ideas on how to slow down those pesky roamers, and yes, I want the advantage to be on my side. If they get through, good on them. But again, I don't want the tools to limit my creativity in stopping them, simply because it could 'ruin' the game for the players that like that part of it. In my view, they have all of beta to roam, if they want to roam gamma, it should be much harder for them. I WANT the large force to come, I'll have something there for them to destroy, I'm not going to be able to simply hole up in my outpost and let them run rampent; and I use "i" in the general term smile

Edit: And, if you want to make your island roam friendly, you can. Let the players decide, not the mechanics. And remember, there's only a limited movement you can TF, so even if you make it impassable, there probably can't be more then 3-4 cycles of a lower to bring it back to passable. It just means that most roaming gangs will get turned away, because they don't bring TF bots/fittings, but preplanned attacks will easily make a path through a land-wall; certainly in less than 1 min per tile.

108 Reply by Obi Wan Kenobi (edited by Obi Wan Kenobi 2012-02-25 09:06:37)

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Re: Terraforming

Arga wrote:

All I want to see, is the freedom to TF as players see fit. Don't read too much of that into what I may personally want to build. I don't see the server just letting any corp wall off an island and live in peace, they'll have to earn that, but I can see some corps trying it; and that's what i'm fighting for, the ability for the mechanics to allow those corps to atleast try to build mt doom.

I have my own ideas on how to slow down those pesky roamers, and yes, I want the advantage to be on my side. If they get through, good on them. But again, I don't want the tools to limit my creativity in stopping them, simply because it could 'ruin' the game for the players that like that part of it. In my view, they have all of beta to roam, if they want to roam gamma, it should be much harder for them. I WANT the large force to come, I'll have something there for them to destroy, I'm not going to be able to simply hole up in my outpost and let them run rampent; and I use "i" in the general term smile

Edit: And, if you want to make your island roam friendly, you can. Let the players decide, not the mechanics. And remember, there's only a limited movement you can TF, so even if you make it impassable, there probably can't be more then 3-4 cycles of a lower to bring it back to passable. It just means that most roaming gangs will get turned away, because they don't bring TF bots/fittings, but preplanned attacks will easily make a path through a land-wall; certainly in less than 1 min per tile.

indeed when it comes to TF the 2 rules about 1000m around TPs & no Tf on the shore line.. I to want to see people be able to have the freedom to do what every they want. But Its the things that come with PBS that must be very carefully thought about.

See on its own TF wont be able to effectively cut you off from the out side world. Sure you can use a mobile TP to get out of your "safe zone" but to get back in you need to have made a small road in thru your maintains (personally i think doing this kind of road into your inner kingdom would be cool big_smile )

But what would be an issue is if something like Player built TPs come in now you may not need that access road. I say "may not need" coz again this depends heavily on what an item like a Player TP can & cant do.
My point isnt so much on mountaining your self off... Its more toward the DEVs.. To be very carefull with the abilities they give us with PBS & what those PBS can do.

I look forward to braking into peoples mountain kingdoms & burning their villages & takeing their women as slaves yarr & having my way with your sheep! i mean kangaroo! tongue

"For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times. Before the Empire."

"The Sand People are easily startled, but they will soon be back, and in greater numbers."

109 Reply by Burial (edited by Burial 2012-02-25 09:54:13)

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Re: Terraforming

I agree with Arga and I think it would be pretty pointless and, in the end, ruin terraforming to try and fight with what players can and can not do. Just add the tools to effectively counter these kinds of landscapes.

Flying bots that can haul other players.
Deployable elevator mechanisms.
Deployable bridges.
Very close range personal teleporters.

...