1 (edited by kosdosu 2011-07-08 16:04:08)

Topic: Attributes.

Haven't seen any threads about that, and looking thru in-game and wiki i couln't find a way to improve my Attributes.

An interesting idea to look into maybe? Implants, perfectly fits with the game story/gameplay.

Humans realised that to survive they need to augment themselves, and thru extensive cybernetics research they found an easy way of attaching chip devices to their body to augment different statistics.

I know this idea is not new but would be such an improvement, because for example im struggling with my robotics skill tree, since i went industrial my attributes to tactics and robotics are bare low thus to research for example lvl6 of basic robotics will take me weeks, i dont even want to know how much it will take me to get to lvl8 to ride heavy industrial mechas. Or at least reduce the complexity tier of skills that involve getting industrial bots for industrial specialised people and keep it high to get any other bots.

Tell me what you think guise.

Re: Attributes.

Actually everyone is possibly in stasis, on a space base orbiting around earth... so implants have no point in being in the game and we already have extensions! wink

<GargajCNS> we maim to please

Re: Attributes.

Lore fail is fail.

->You just lost The Game<-

Re: Attributes.

Neoxx wrote:

Lore fail is fail.

This.

Tip: There are no humans on Nia.

Re: Attributes.

Your attributes are the result of your schooling (your corporation choice has no bearing on your attributes, only basic extensions), which is why you choose a university to study at, your major and minor and stuff like that, each choice having a smaller affect on your attributes.  Think of it as your profession, which makes you better at learning certain tools of your trade.  It hearkens back to EVE in that you're almost book learning your skills, but with the convenience of the EP pool.  Basically making learning decisions retroactively, so you're in a way deciding the history of your agent when you train your extensions.

->You just lost The Game<-

6 (edited by kosdosu 2011-07-08 16:15:58)

Re: Attributes.

Neoxx and Rodger, What the hell are you talking about, on land or in the goddamn space it doesnt matter, your attributes are directly linked to the human you are playing... And they are the one affecting your extensions... and by installing implants on yourself you affect your attributes which in return improve your extension installation rates...

Then again its only a discussion, I like the way extensions work. Just wanted to see what people think about implants.

7 (edited by Neoxx 2011-07-08 16:21:18)

Re: Attributes.

I just sewed a flash drive with the encyclopedia Britannica on it into my arm and I feel no different.....  maybe a little queasy, but certainly not any smarter.  What gives?  I thought this sh*t was just supposed to work regardless of what world we live in?


You also seem to have some sort of tunnel vision when it comes to sci-fi.  What makes you think that such technology would be possible here?  We cant even manage to send anything larger than a nano-bot through the wormhole.  It really doesnt seem to fit.  Why bother making us go to universities and study if we could just implant knowledge at our discretion?  Dont say its about money because I damn well know college would be just as f*cking expensive as it is now.


And for the general idea of increasing attributes, I dont see why its necessary.  Its not that bad to raise industrial control.  Its a fraction of what all the damn mining skills cost.  How much would you propose it changes your attributes?  Are they permanent?  What do they cost?  How would they be acquired? 

By the way, you presented this idea from a purely lore based perspective, so we're refuting it based on your obvious lack of understanding of it.  Dont get pissy with us when you didnt even RTFM.

->You just lost The Game<-

Re: Attributes.

Neoxx,

Okay now you exaggerating. I did not say we should take some knowledge and attach it to ourselves to make us superhumans... Nether i was getting "pissy" here and stop telling me to RTFM, there is no specific lore that says we cannot have this technology.

What i meant is brain activity augmentation. If you had an implant that allows you to concentrate better, would you be able to read and comprehend books better? Yes. Increasing you attributes is exactly that. When you finish university you don't just stop developing, you can go to another university or self-teach.

And its bull that the technology is not there for us to make implants. If humankind is so advanced to use wormholes, we certainly can understand human anatomy and brain activity on an incredible level. It would be expensive to produce obviously since nanotechnology would be involved.

Yes to get them i was thinking we can brainstorm. Reputation plus alot of Nic? Cannot produce them since its controlled by big corporations which hold the rights but then again, "underground" illigal activities can reproduce them using reverse engineering? But that obviously would require alot of skills and knowledge.

The actual implants themselves would be of different grade or tier? Like T1 would be bare literally 1 point in attribute, T3 like 3-4, i was thinking making them not as ground breaking but if you want to go that extra mile you would want to go for those expensive toys.

Obviously you cannot have gazzilion implants on your head since your head is not a moon so some restrictions would be required which means you cannot improve all of your attributes at the same time, will have to do a trade-off between lets say industrious and warmongering pathways.

Re: Attributes.

You cannot associate these with the Nian technologies, because they couldn't possibly exist in the same place.  It would be created on Earth to be used there, so how would you associate what we do to obtaining said implants?

I disagree with your "you can always go to another university and learn to learn better".  You'll learn more things over time (which is essentially what EP is.  Time spent doing something which you decide on later.) but you dont necessarily get better at learning everything.  Your brain is not like a hard drive that has unlimited capacity and can recall any bit of it at any time if given the command to.

Your attributes are your basic decisions in schooling that give you the foundational knowledge to operate and learn related things with ease (also why you gain some extensions from the start). 

When it all boils down, I think anything that augments how quickly you can get extensions past what you chose at character creation creates the "learning" skill idea from EVE that we all want to avoid.  It creates this goal that you must reach before actually progressing your character to avoid not being as efficient as possible.  In EVE you trained learning before really getting into any serious skills because it saved you so much time in the long run.  If we had implants, people would grind up money (or have it given to them from a corp) to buy the best implants the first thing they do before spending any EP so they can make the most of it as possible with the best attributes they can.

->You just lost The Game<-

Re: Attributes.

[RP]
The ability to adjust our human forms would neccesitate bringing them conceptually into the game world, while they are currently meta objects with no direct influence on game play. If we open up a 2-way path, 'good' things like implants may not be the only thing to make that journey.

Seems like we are providing a pathway for the Nian's to infect and take over wet-ware devices on earth. We could end up fighting a battle on two fronts...

[/RP]

11 (edited by Alrione 2011-07-08 19:30:26)

Re: Attributes.

Neoxx wrote:

I disagree with your "you can always go to another university and learn to learn better".  You'll learn more things over time (which is essentially what EP is.  Time spent doing something which you decide on later.) but you dont necessarily get better at learning everything.  Your brain is not like a hard drive that has unlimited capacity and can recall any bit of it at any time if given the command to.

Just have to barge in, but this is wrong.
Universities give you a superset/examples of tricks on how to absorb and learn information better. After you finish university you are not magically limited in the ways you learn new things.
Technology and learning processes tend to evolve based on your experiances, and say if you learned certain subject at uni, it does not make automaticly worse at other subject.
Yes your initial knowledge is low in another area, but as you progress you wilkl obviously learn how this subject works and get better and understanding it, develop new techniques for absorbing the information.

In terms of game world, this could be something like, based on your attributes initial costs for first, say 4 levels are high, but as you go, the price difference should be diminishing.

12 (edited by Norrdec 2011-07-08 19:34:12)

Re: Attributes.

This idea could be good if it wasn't taken from EVE.

Is it necessary? No.
Would it give more people whine that Perp is copying EVE? Freaking 100% sure there will be tons of them.

<GargajCNS> we maim to please

Re: Attributes.

Norrdec wrote:

This idea could be good if it wasn't taken from EVE.

So you saying everything is always copied from EVE? You saying that god created EVE and then everyone copies it now? I don't see CS fans raging at BF fans for stealing their idea of "Shootan Game"...

Same idea can be implemented differently.

Re: Attributes.

The trouble with RL analogies is they break down very quickly. While I studied engineering my friend couldn't care less about math but is an awesome salesguy. Is he capable of learning engineering, probably, but it doesn't come easy and he's not willing to fight for the knowledge. When you want to play an indy guy, you choose the path you want them to take, and then it's just assumed that the agent had an affintiy for that path. Thinking you have an engineering genius that was forced through the military path seems like an awkward way to rationalize being able to move ability points from combat to industrial.

15 (edited by Alrione 2011-07-08 21:00:33)

Re: Attributes.

Arga wrote:

The trouble with RL analogies is they break down very quickly. While I studied engineering my friend couldn't care less about math but is an awesome salesguy. Is he capable of learning engineering, probably, but it doesn't come easy and he's not willing to fight for the knowledge. When you want to play an indy guy, you choose the path you want them to take, and then it's just assumed that the agent had an affintiy for that path. Thinking you have an engineering genius that was forced through the military path seems like an awkward way to rationalize being able to move ability points from combat to industrial.

I did not mean moving points from one side to another.
Sorry should have been more clear.
All I meant is literally per skill basis, if someone "fights" for that knowledge, they surely would get slight decrease to costs of later levels.
I dont mean that past lvl 4 all skills should be trained same rate for everyone smile
Something like: Im an indy, but I really want to learn for this heavy bot.
While someone who is specced for heavy bots will use, for example, 200 points for level 10.
Someone who is an indy, but stuck through this, should get slight cost decrease. ie instead of 500, lvl10 would cost 450.

And this way is certainly very different from eve where bonus gets applied across the border.

Re: Attributes.

Alrione wrote:
Arga wrote:

The trouble with RL analogies is they break down very quickly. While I studied engineering my friend couldn't care less about math but is an awesome salesguy. Is he capable of learning engineering, probably, but it doesn't come easy and he's not willing to fight for the knowledge. When you want to play an indy guy, you choose the path you want them to take, and then it's just assumed that the agent had an affintiy for that path. Thinking you have an engineering genius that was forced through the military path seems like an awkward way to rationalize being able to move ability points from combat to industrial.

I did not mean moving points from one side to another.
Sorry should have been more clear.
All I meant is literally per skill basis, if someone "fights" for that knowledge, they surely would get slight decrease to costs of later levels.
I dont mean that past lvl 4 all skills should be trained same rate for everyone smile
Something like: Im an indy, but I really want to learn for this heavy bot.
While someone who is specced for heavy bots will use, for example, 200 points for level 10.
Someone who is an indy, but stuck through this, should get slight cost decrease. ie instead of 500, lvl10 would cost 450.

And this way is certainly very different from eve where bonus gets applied across the border.

Supported. This game really need attribute remaps with cooldown (half a year to a year or so), as opposed to account reset with steep penalty past first time. There is no cap on EP, the only reason for EP reset would be chasing the fotm, which should not be encouraged. There should be a way to remap attributes independently from EP, without incurring the steep penalty and lose the character.

Re: Attributes.

I think I was against attribute remaps a couple months ago, and we'll see where the new reset goes to. The choice would be between a complete redo and the ability as Alrione mentioned - to push some points around.

Being conservative, I'd say try out being able to push a FEW points every 3 months with some sort of 'NIC sink' cost and go back to a 1 time EP reset. If that fails go with a full remap every 500,000 EP (about a 1 per yr).
Basing it on EP means your agent has to be subbed to earn the remap.

18 (edited by Rodger Wilcoe 2011-07-08 23:53:33)

Re: Attributes.

Neoxx wrote:

I just sewed a flash drive with the encyclopedia Britannica on it into my arm and I feel no different.....

Newb. Next time make it wireless so it syncs with Wikipedia otherwise your information is outdated tongue

kosdosu wrote:

If you had an implant that allows you to concentrate better, would you be able to read and comprehend books better?

Coffee 2.0

And its bull that the technology is not there for us to make implants. If humankind is so advanced to use wormholes, we certainly can understand human anatomy and brain activity on an incredible level.

It is a poor assumption that technological development runs parallel. Just because you are advanced in some areas does not mean you are advanced in others.

Arga wrote:

Seems like we are providing a pathway for the Nian's to infect and take over wet-ware devices on earth. We could end up fighting a battle on two fronts...

We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own...

Alrione wrote:

Something like: Im an indy, but I really want to learn for this heavy bot.

Because it is something you aren't familiar with, it should logically take longer to learn. Augmenting this makes it rather pointless to distribute attributes in the first place if you can simply "fix" your flaws with implants.

Sabre906 wrote:

Supported. This game really need attribute remaps with cooldown (half a year to a year or so), as opposed to account reset with steep penalty past first time.

Attributes are essentially who/what your character is. EP is simply what they have learned. You can forget things and learn new things in real life, hover you cannot really change your ability/capacity to learn. That is the distinction between extensions/attributes for me.

I don't support attribute remaps because it is essentially changing the core of your character which is what the current system allows, with an appropriate penalty.

You get a free option to fix your mistakes, after that it should be prohibitive in my opinion.

Arga wrote:

Basing it on EP means your agent has to be subbed to earn the remap.

I'd agree with something like this for extension remapping but not attributes. Attributes are the core of the character and shouldn't be changed in my opinion. I think the current system is adequate with 1 free change to fix mistakes and then prohibitive from that point on.

Re: Attributes.

Rodger Wilcoe wrote:

Because it is something you aren't familiar with, it should logically take longer to learn. Augmenting this makes it rather pointless to distribute attributes in the first place if you can simply "fix" your flaws with implants.

Read my other posts, I explained exactly what I meant.
I did not suggest redistributing stats.
The idea is you get a slight decrease on the cost of high levels of the specific skill.
Ie lvl7 will give you 1% discount, lvl 8 2%. lv9 3% and lv10 4%.
Based on each skill.
NO LEARNING or such skills.
If im learning heavy mecha, and decided to stick through with it, later levels would have little discount.
Its not blowing anything out of proportion and isnt overriding your initial stat choices, so the end result is still higher then someone with better suited stat.
View it simply as player incentive.

20

Re: Attributes.

Attributes in Perpetuum do not work the way they work(ed) in EvE. In EvE rising an attribute has a 'diminishing returns' effect. In Perpetuum it does the opposite: each new attribute point gives you more saving than the previous.

Therefore, if you are an industrial, no matter how slow your combat training is, if you were given a chance to boost an attribute, it should be your highest attribute (probably an industrial one).

Of course if they give us the possibility to boost ALL attributes, then we do want to do exactly that: boost them all. But given a limited choice, the highest one is the one to boost. Unless you know for sure you are never ever going to train anything with that attribute any more (not even the extensions that do not yet exist in the game at the moment).

Avatar Creations have a lot to learn about economy
-- Snowman

21 (edited by Rodger Wilcoe 2011-07-09 03:28:45)

Re: Attributes.

Alrione wrote:

View it simply as player incentive.

What incentive? To make something that is supposed to be harder easier? That isn't incentive, that is impatience and laziness.

Why bother with implants, lets just put in a "learning" extension roll

Re: Attributes.

herp derp, I want to learn extensions faster

Re: Attributes.

Personally, I hope implants and/or remaps are never introduced into Perpetuum. They reek of laziness.

Re: Attributes.

So after I get chipped and scripted can i get a monocle too?

Participate, Congratulate cause everything else will be seen as HATE.
Max yellow max all skills lvl 10 min max for the win

25 (edited by kosdosu 2011-07-09 14:19:46)

Re: Attributes.

Alrione wrote:

Read my other posts, I explained exactly what I meant.
I did not suggest redistributing stats.
The idea is you get a slight decrease on the cost of high levels of the specific skill.
Ie lvl7 will give you 1% discount, lvl 8 2%. lv9 3% and lv10 4%.
Based on each skill.
NO LEARNING or such skills.
If im learning heavy mecha, and decided to stick through with it, later levels would have little discount.
Its not blowing anything out of proportion and isnt overriding your initial stat choices, so the end result is still higher then someone with better suited stat.
View it simply as player incentive.

smile Fully support Alrione here, finally someone came up with constructive idea instead of whining at every single improvement. This by any means would not be groundbreaking and can bring nice longterm benefits.

Why should i suffer same degree penalty between industrial heavy mecha and any other type of heavy if im fully concentrating on industry? It only makes sense that i would learn how to control one faster then the latter.

Pak wrote:

Attributes in Perpetuum do not work the way they work(ed) in EvE. In EvE rising an attribute has a 'diminishing returns' effect. In Perpetuum it does the opposite: each new attribute point gives you more saving than the previous.
Therefore, if you are an industrial, no matter how slow your combat training is, if you were given a chance to boost an attribute, it should be your highest attribute (probably an industrial one).
Of course if they give us the possibility to boost ALL attributes, then we do want to do exactly that: boost them all. But given a limited choice, the highest one is the one to boost. Unless you know for sure you are never ever going to train anything with that attribute any more (not even the extensions that do not yet exist in the game at the moment).

Sort of agree, especially on the part about limited choice so you don't get bonuses across the board.

Zemetry wrote:

Personally, I hope implants and/or remaps are never introduced into Perpetuum. They reek of laziness.

I don't see how is what we talking about here closely relevant to what you just said.

Rodger Wilcoe wrote:

That isn't incentive, that is impatience and laziness.

Same to what i just said. smile

Khader Khan wrote:

So after I get chipped and scripted can i get a monocle too?

Go back to eve and buy one, this joke is old.

Rodger Wilcoe wrote:

Why bother with implants, lets just put in a "learning" extension

Completely disagree to be honest. Changing attributes makes more sense.

Rodger Wilcoe wrote:

Attributes are the core of the character and shouldn't be changed in my opinion.

What? That doesn't make any sense, you saying that when you become 30 years old you forever a 30yo and stop improving yourself?

Rodger Wilcoe wrote:

It is a poor assumption that technological development runs parallel. Just because you are advanced in some areas does not mean you are advanced in others.

There's nothing that says otherwise so how can you assume my assumptions are poor?