Topic: Mining Changes

Now that I've had some time to digest the changes mentioned in the dev blog, I have some questions and some criticisms I'd like to discuss.

To summarize, mining yields will be given a 50% bonus across the board.  Whether this is before modules and extensions or after, this will drastically increase the speed that anyone mines.  Next, mineral regeneration rates will be slowed "accordingly."  Finally, titan ore will stop regenerating on beta islands.

My first question, is, are we mining 50% faster or is there 50% more ore in the ground?  If the amount of ore is the same but we mine it faster and it regenerates slower, this will create a bubble as there will be half as much ore in the game.  Unless we are relying on the 6 new islands to make up for this shortfall?

Ok, so my first criticism of these changes is that they make mining a "secondary" profession.  What I mean by that, is that now it requires far less investment of extensions and equipment to be competitive at mining.  The emphasis is taken off of mining efficiency (meaning ore mined per hour), and placed on finding and protecting mineral fields.  At a game level, this doesn't seem like a bad thing.  It encourages teamwork, land control, and gives us a desperately needed something to fight for. 

But it destroys the miner as a primary occupation choice.  It no longer makes sense to place all of your extensions in mining to increase your mining efficiency.  At some point, you are losing more time to scanning down new fields and doing what it takes to mine them than you are to the actual process of mining.  Mining is now something that you hop into a Termis and do with poor skills when you come across some ore, and not something that can be the reason you play the game.

As a (the only?) dedicated miner who isn't just doing it on an alt - this is all I do in the game - I no longer see myself able to enjoy the game only by mining.  The 50% boost alone maybe I could, or the regeneration only, but the combination is going to make it impossible for me to get out and mine all the time without significant combat support, which I can't always expect or rely on.

Again, at a game-wide level this may not be bad, but it is a significant step to kill off an entire profession, relegating it to secondary status.  If everything happens the way it's been planned, I'm not going to ragequit and be butthurt, but I probably will reset my account and play a combat character.  I currently mine exclusively, and probably 80% of that makes it to the open market.  If there are any others like me who are thinking similarly, this could have the opposite intended effect on the game by driving prices way up, because no one is mining.  The exception will be corporations, who have the logistics to perform moving mining ops.  But they aren't likely to put that ore on the market.

As for the changes to titan ore, I think this is a great idea.  I support the furthering of this idea, where each beta island has more or less of certain other ores, requiring an interdependence between beta/alpha, as well as between beta islands.  I have no real complaints here, however, make sure someone is considering the fact that the titan on alpha needs to be considerably increased.  The fields of red titan ore as far as you can see on beta don't exist on alpha, and others are correct when they say that the beta Rivelers will descend on alpha for their titan...

Summary (tl;dr)
The mining changes will move the focus of mining, from mining, to finding and controlling fields, killing the solo miner as a profession.  This sucks for the solo miner, and also for the market, as corps aren't putting ore on the market.  Titan changes are ok as long as amounts are increased on alpha to compensate.

Re: Mining Changes

Ral wrote:

My first question, is, are we mining 50% faster or is there 50% more ore in the ground?

Neither. Ground tiles do not store amounts, but cycles - how much you mine depends alone on your extensions, your equipment, and the base mineral yield. The +50% is added to the base yield, and extension/robot bonuses only come after that. This does not affect depletion or cycle times at all.

And yes, titan amounts will be compensated on alpha.

Re: Mining Changes

Ok, so it's just 50% more ore in the ground coming out 50% faster.  Will the regeneration be 50% slower?  It seems like this will drive down the prices of ore considerably.

Re: Mining Changes

No it will come out of the ground in the time determined by your skills, however dedicated miners will get big bonuses due to their skills, especially if the 50% is applied at the base amount per cycle. As the bonuses stack up, as a miner you will be able to pull greater amounts of ore from a field than a non-miner can therefore for the time you invest (which should be less than a non-miner) you will pull ever greater amounts out.

In simple terms, miners just became the flavour of the day with the ore respawn change. For a given field, 10 miners will pull more ore than 10 combats but the field will still take the same amount of time to regen. You just became a very important link in the chain of efficiency.

"like Kalsius, a shameless carebear and jitalover" - Syndic
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Re: Mining Changes

Ok well that's definitely not as bad then.

BUT, will we really get big bonuses?  50% more ore across the board, means it will be worth half as much, so the only net change is that the ore needed to make X amount of NIC will be spread out farther.

I don't think mining fields containing cycles rather than an amount of ore is new, so the only changes here to speak of is that you get more and it takes longer to respawn.

Idk, I will definitely wait to see what happens before I make any drastic changes.  Either way it seems like its pointless to mine between now and Wednesday though.

Re: Mining Changes

what i don't get is who much ore does a 100% miner module mine?

and can u get over 100%?

I Currently am the author of Perpetuum Fitting Tool - Continued..
EVE - bigsteve

Re: Mining Changes

also what is it a percentage of???

I Currently am the author of Perpetuum Fitting Tool - Continued..
EVE - bigsteve

Re: Mining Changes

I dug into the forums and pulled out some 'base' ore per cycle, even if these numbers aren't correct, the idea will be the same.

Titan 500
Stermonit 300
Imentium 200
HDT 500
Liquizit 150
Epriton 150
Helioptris 300
Triandlus 200

Lets go with Titan ore, at 500 ore base per cycle and a theoretical field with 1000 cycles.
Our 'test bot' has 2 lasers with no bonus with a 24 sec cycle time.

The Max Base yeild for this field is 500*1000 = 500,000 titan ore
The time is 1000*24= 24000 seconds / 2 lasers = 12000 sec or 200 secs  (ignoring relock time).

To summerize so far, as things are currently are the 'test bot' can mine .5 Million Titan ore about every 3.3 hours.

After the patch, yeilds are increase 50% and for discussion we'll say field size is reduced to equalize the yeild.

Base titan ore 500 * (1.5) = 750 ore per cycle
Max base yeild is fixed at 500,000 / 750 ore = 667 cycles (rounded) a 1/3 decrease in field size.

the time is 667 cycles * 24 seconds = 6667 seconds / 2 lasers = 8004 sec or 133 mins

to recap again, with the new ore fields, a miner can now mine .5 M titan ore in 2.2 hours, or about 2/3 the previous time.

Now, onto the combat vs dedicated miner. The combat argano driver is similar to our test bot, but lets put the experienced miner into a Riveler.

Base 750 ore * (1+ lvl 8 Indy Bot * 5% Bot bonus) = 1050 ore/cyc
667 cycles / 5 lasers * 12 sec = 26 minutes

Comparison
Argo Yeild .5 M ore in 2.2 hours
Rive Yeild  .7 M ore in 26 minutes

As you add more bonuses to the Riveler, that gap will just increase, Significantly more ore in Significantly less time with a dedicated miner.

But, you can also see, with the additional cycle time bonuses that Rivelers will really go through a field of ore quickly now.

There isn't anything explicit in the blog that the field sizes will be reduced, only that the regeneration will be, if that is the case, the only thing different is the max yeild and time required will go up and each field will yeild more before it is mined out.

Yes, ore prices may go down but volume is also increasing, making it even less profitable for combat alts to go mine, while keeping net income for advnaced miners about the same. Remember, 6 more islands of ore, so abundancey isn't going to be an issue, but there will certainly be more moving around trying to find regenerated fields.

The 1000 cycles is a 'small' example. Currently I'll use about 5000 charges and not get any where near through a whole field, so take the 'time' and 'yeild' values as they are meant to just show how the change effects mining, not your expected yeilds and time.

Re: Mining Changes

Yes, ore prices may go down but volume is also increasing, making it even less profitable for combat alts to go mine, while keeping net income for advnaced miners about the same.

Thats the key point here, dedicated miners got a boost, everyone else took a hit (when you even things out etc). Good times to be dedicated miner, you can either see it as you mine two hours and now you get more ore (yay profit) OR you can spend less time to mine the same amount of ore as prepatch (yay more PvP).

"like Kalsius, a shameless carebear and jitalover" - Syndic
http://www.perpetuum-intelligence.com
http://www.perpetuum-intelligence.com/killboard/

10

Re: Mining Changes

Kalsius Dakalsai wrote:

Yes, ore prices may go down but volume is also increasing, making it even less profitable for combat alts to go mine, while keeping net income for advnaced miners about the same.

Thats the key point here, dedicated miners got a boost, everyone else took a hit (when you even things out etc). Good times to be dedicated miner, you can either see it as you mine two hours and now you get more ore (yay profit) OR you can spend less time to mine the same amount of ore as prepatch (yay more PvP).

Maybe I'm missing something here.  "Ore prices may go down but volume is also increasing" should be "Ore prices may go down BECAUSE volume is increasing".

Prices are down, so miners are making less money.  Let's say volume increases exactly proportional to price changes, now the only net change is more difficulty in finding fields to mine, and more logistics (hauling).

Not a buff to miners.  Definitely a buff to people who buy ore, or anything really.

Re: Mining Changes

Kalsius Dakalsai wrote:

Yes, ore prices may go down but volume is also increasing, making it even less profitable for combat alts to go mine, while keeping net income for advnaced miners about the same.

Thats the key point here, dedicated miners got a boost, everyone else took a hit (when you even things out etc). Good times to be dedicated miner, you can either see it as you mine two hours and now you get more ore (yay profit) OR you can spend less time to mine the same amount of ore as prepatch (yay more PvP).


Right on. I can't wait for my 150+% riveler with increased amounts. Buying field locations after patch within 3k of any terminal, and at least 1k away from the nearest npc spawn. Only buying 1 or two a day so when you see me log on send me a pm and we'll discuss your terms. (Fields must be scanned within the hour and perfer noone else to be on them unless they're really huge). Do that part of the work for me and maybe you can have 10% of what I mine from there.

Re: Mining Changes

As a miner, I like the changes.

13

Re: Mining Changes

Now that I've seen it in person, it's not world-ending, but I still think it will drive prices down in general.  This is great for everyone except people making money from mining.  Bots will be cheaper, ammo will be cheaper, modules will be cheaper.  This is good for the game.  But if you were mining ore and selling it for money, this hurts you.

But I guess if it is good for the game as a whole, we can take one for the team.

Re: Mining Changes

Ore will get cheaper, but dont forget that you're mining faster, so you will have the same income with the same spent time.

Re: Mining Changes

I found a beautiful field of titan on Tellesis last night... BIG RED cyclinders are far as the eye could see ... until your eye hit the NPCs wiggling around it smile

*tear*  Unspoild perfect feilds of minerals

Poor thing, it will probably be nibbled away before I can even get back to it, but ore quantities won't be an issue. From the online graph, I see we're getting a few more players, but it would really have to go up to have shortages.

16

Re: Mining Changes

Kristan Delorian wrote:

Ore will get cheaper, but dont forget that you're mining faster, so you will have the same income with the same spent time.

I covered this earlier.  If prices go down proportional to the increase in ore yields, then the net change is more work for the same money.  When you consider you have to move to find fields and haul the extra ore, you are spending less time actually mining, so you are still making less money, albeit only slightly less.  But you are doing more work for that money.

Re: Mining Changes

Did you see the Telleris outpost has infinte ore buy orders for .22 ( or .23 something in that range) making an artifical floor for titan ore.

Using titan as an example: a proportional drop from .40 NIC/titan ore (a fairly common pre announcnment price for titan) would be down to .20 NIC/ORE. Since there is an artificial floor above that, it will never drop proportionally, so miners will make more. How much more depends on the demand. If price holds too high corps will mine their own, but if it goes into that .25-.29 range it becomes interesting for them. Call it .30-.32 delivered and that's a win-win.

Don't expect the infinite buy order to be there forever though.

18 (edited by Ral 2011-05-05 19:40:38)

Re: Mining Changes

That's interesting, but in general I don't think the economy needs artificial stimulation to keep prices at a certain level.  If prices do fall that low, people will think of better things to do with ore to make more money.

If you think about it, basic seeded items like mining charges are already creating price floors (and ceilings), just less directly.

Edit: Also I think your maths are off.  A 50% yield increase wouldn't equate to a 50% reduction in cost, a 100% yield increase would cause cost to drop by half, because in theory there would be twice as much available, so it would be worth half as much.

Right?

19 (edited by Arga 2011-05-05 20:03:58)

Re: Mining Changes

Maths are crazy smile

Edit: But you're right, you said proportional change, which I did in the first post yesterday, where the price drop is 1/3, not 1/2. Thanks for catching that

Edit Edit: NM.... I'm distracted.

Edit edit edit: Editted for editing