Topic: What do you expect from PvP in a sandbox

Hey

What do you consider to be 'MUST HAVE' in a Sandbox mmo when it comes to PvP.

E.g. Something worthwhile to fight over. i.e. player owned structures.

What do you think ..

DEV's please take note smile

Seamus (rik)

Re: What do you expect from PvP in a sandbox

I expect a political system that is effected by what you do, especially PvP.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: What do you expect from PvP in a sandbox

So you mean the ability to take and hold land. and effectively have real empires.

sounds good ... how will that work do you think with the current intrusion system.

Rik

4 (edited by Redline 2011-01-30 22:53:31)

Re: What do you expect from PvP in a sandbox

1. The meaning of OPs shouldnt just be of financial nature.

2. Concerning PVP i think - anything artificial e.g. being locked up in an area by artificial means - contradicts the PVP thought since certain means are taken away from you. The more effective you exploit these artificial elements the more success you will have.

3. This leads to open pvp - whereas the freedom should be there to do so - not everywhere, but still in social plaaces. Keyword non-consensual pvp is a basic element since its pointless to fight someone who takes into account to die.

4. Behaviour should be rewarded or penaltylized as in creating several - factions relating to each other through their behaviour, outlaws whatever you call them - who again have some benefits in their areas, have to risk more as in being catched and are excluded from other certain areas.

5. It shouldnt solely depend on numbers - which is a hard task in a game where skill comes from intel and preparation, so maybe the different factions resulting out of behaviour could have certain influences on viability.

edit:

6. There shouldnt be any rewards as in items, but solely the idea of having defeated an opponent.

Re: What do you expect from PvP in a sandbox

whining carebares screaming for nerfs

Re: What do you expect from PvP in a sandbox

docking up leet pvpers

Re: What do you expect from PvP in a sandbox

Arkhe scouts on every teleporter

Re: What do you expect from PvP in a sandbox

Srs guyz. I C U cn d0 it.
First we need something worth taking and holding. Something we don't have to live in at the same time as protecting it and something that outweighs the effect of taking it.
Then we need complex mechanics that allows us to attack and defend in a different way each time.

It's getting there but it's a long way off.

The Game

Re: What do you expect from PvP in a sandbox

i wonder what that is, that is "worth" building and holding, and then what game mechanic could be implemented that prevents guys from the other side of the globe, or without real-life to destroy or take it while most of your own corp is not online.

From what i have read, any game mechanic that is similar to eve's or the intrusion system is not very acceptable... i wonder which alternatives are out there.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: What do you expect from PvP in a sandbox

I agree about the eve comment ... the territory ownership system in eve is the reason I stopped playing eve ..it just ground everything to a halt.

we need something that requires a huge commitment of manpower and large mechs but if you manage to do that then conquering should be fairly quick.

This will necessitate large scale engagements ... but with the new proximity interference system ... these would have to be spread out ... and utilize artillery. Maybe have multiple ways of territory conquering ... errr ... hacking ((just like the current intrusion system) ... destroying (Literally flatten everything and the rebuild [the last bit would be a long vulnerable process]) ... siege (cutting supply lines e.g. stopping the power supply to manufacturing and refining and prototype facilities until the enemy surrenders ...maybe by occupying adjacent zones? power transfer zones - easy to do but hard to defend)

Just some ideas

Seamus (Rik)

Re: What do you expect from PvP in a sandbox

Complaining about people that do not have lives on an internet forum is the pot calling the kettle black if I've ever seen one

Re: What do you expect from PvP in a sandbox

Numerous small scale pvp objectives that give nice rewards.  Mines in shadowbane essentially for those familiar with the best siege pvp game ever made.

3-4 mines per beta island.  Vulnerability windows open for 1-2 hours at a time per mine staggered throughout the day.  Make the mine a active hacking node and the first person to hack it locks it down until the next vulnerability window 1 day hence.  Mine produces different ore types(titan,hdt,epriton,etc.) which is deposited into corp storage for controlling corporation every hour/day.

Re: What do you expect from PvP in a sandbox

Tiggus wrote:

Numerous small scale pvp objectives that give nice rewards.  Mines in shadowbane essentially for those familiar with the best siege pvp game ever made.

3-4 mines per beta island.  Vulnerability windows open for 1-2 hours at a time per mine staggered throughout the day.  Make the mine a active hacking node and the first person to hack it locks it down until the next vulnerability window 1 day hence.  Mine produces different ore types(titan,hdt,epriton,etc.) which is deposited into corp storage for controlling corporation every hour/day.

QFMFT...holy moley, now that would be fun as hell. "SB.exe error" was absolutely the best siege game too, loved destorying all the buildings.

FYI, there is a group of hardcore fans who are working on a free version. www.playtocrush.com

Re: What do you expect from PvP in a sandbox

i almost forgot the most important thing:

i expect that the pvp'ing parties can be attacked by strong NPCs at anytime out of the blue.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: What do you expect from PvP in a sandbox

PvP rewards as in items? Small scale artificial targets/aims/goals?

HELL NO! This hasnt to do anything with pvp  - all goals have to be integrated elements within the game world - otherwise the arena type of pseudo pvp sports would just ruin anything a mmo achieves to break loose espescially from those type of games.

If the underlying system: connected pve/pvp/area control/political system trading doesnt allow for valuable targets to fight for then the underlying system has to be changed.

To cure the obvious lacks of the game with elements that break the game even more would be just ridiculous.

Re: What do you expect from PvP in a sandbox

Tiggus wrote:

Numerous small scale pvp objectives that give nice rewards.  Mines in shadowbane essentially for those familiar with the best siege pvp game ever made.

3-4 mines per beta island.  Vulnerability windows open for 1-2 hours at a time per mine staggered throughout the day.  Make the mine a active hacking node and the first person to hack it locks it down until the next vulnerability window 1 day hence.  Mine produces different ore types(titan,hdt,epriton,etc.) which is deposited into corp storage for controlling corporation every hour/day.

This is an excellent idea. I'd go a little further, and have the mine/geyser/crop yield a rare element that is unique to the Beta islands.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

Re: What do you expect from PvP in a sandbox

I like the idea of the npc factions making a 'push' to retake strategic points what are being contested by players to add a wild card element to battles.

18 (edited by Campana 2011-02-01 22:28:24)

Re: What do you expect from PvP in a sandbox

Seamus OKeefe wrote:

I like the idea of the npc factions making a 'push' to retake strategic points what are being contested by players to add a wild card element to battles.

I personally dislike PvPvE. I didn't like it in WAR, it was one of the things that made me quit the game. It was one of the reasons I never bothered with Aion. If you pvp against other players, you want it to be them vs you. You don't want it suddenly to turn into a pve outing, or have random mobs running in and affecting the outcome...that would be RNG at it's worst.

As far as the OP is concerned, I like to have something to fight over, whether it be portions of territory, resources, structures, anything.

"...playing a game is the voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles."
Bernard Suits, 1978

19 (edited by Redline 2011-02-02 06:22:00)

Re: What do you expect from PvP in a sandbox

Campana wrote:

As far as the OP is concerned, I like to have something to fight over, whether it be portions of territory, resources, structures, anything.

Agreed to no - rnd pve elements in pvp other then the npc that are usually around.

Concerning structures and areal control: we have that in place in form of the OPs but there currently arent real benefits.

So what could these benefits be when fighting for owned structures?

My approach would be to let OPs have 3 minor bunkers that can be fought for:

-only dockable for owner
-destroyable with re-gen to make certain dmg potential needed to destroy
-maybe not even dockable but having entrances that can be openen/closed
-that can be fitted with defensive means
-can be taken at any time
-have an alarm going off to the owner when being attacked
-allowing the owner to port into the structure for x amount cash per unit after 30% dmg is dealt and 50% is not reached
-reduce the OPs profits if owned by enemy
-thus work as a form of siegeing elements
-maybe reduce the max docking capability of the affiliated OP if owned by enemy
-

well - just a first idea...

Re: What do you expect from PvP in a sandbox

Yeah control points, and mines. Have the control points give very good loot that's worth taking. Darkfall had these but the loot was piss poor.

Like we're talking epitron or t4 mechs, kernels.

You guys did good with the hard roaming mechs.

Re: What do you expect from PvP in a sandbox

Mara Kaid wrote:

Yeah control points, and mines. Have the control points give very good loot that's worth taking. Darkfall had these but the loot was piss poor.

Like we're talking epitron or t4 mechs, kernels.

Yes, this is the best idea to come out so far.

I would have it work in the fashion Tiggus describes- for every minute that a corp holds the control point, a fixed amount of the unique resource is deposited into their storage.

Redline wrote:

-only dockable for owner
-maybe not even dockable but having entrances that can be openen/closed
-that can be fitted with defensive means
-can be taken at any time
-have an alarm going off to the owner
-reduce the OPs profits if owned by enemy

Red, I realize you're going for an immersive feel, but some accomodations need to be made. I think there should be some advance warning before anyone can attack one of these control points, simply because it's unfair to expect that a corp will maintain a presence 24/7.

And rather than reduce profits, a captured control point should give no profit at all to the losing corp.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

Re: What do you expect from PvP in a sandbox

It should matter when you lose
The attacker of territory should be at an inconceivable
Logistics should be hard
The tactic of "blueballing" should be financially prohibitive and / or carry penalties
Islands should exist as archipelago's and not land masses. There should be a lot more stations with some being strategically important due to their links.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: What do you expect from PvP in a sandbox

Savin wrote:

Red, I realize you're going for an immersive feel, but some accomodations need to be made. I think there should be some advance warning before anyone can attack one of these control points, simply because it's unfair to expect that a corp will maintain a presence 24/7.

And rather than reduce profits, a captured control point should give no profit at all to the losing corp.

yeah updated my posting with the possibility to port into the structure for x amount of cash per unit, after 30% damg has been dealt and 50% is not reached.

additionally, its not necessary to maintain 24/7 presence if you can capture is back once an hour.

the dmg necessary to capture it will be quiet immense regarding the auto-regen of the structure. this way youll avoid 1 one man show.

And concerning the reduction of profits - my idea was to not make the structure give gains directly, but indirectly influence the corresponding OP. If you own an OP and 1 of these stations gets captured - the effectiveness of all OP regarding bonuses would be reduced by 1/6. The OP itself gives like 3/6 and each structure 1/6 - so by capturing all 3 structures you could reduce OP effectivity by 50%.

But yes - a ressource withing that structure is also nice - i just wouldnt want those structures seperated from OPs entirely.

Re: What do you expect from PvP in a sandbox

Redline wrote:

And concerning the reduction of profits - my idea was to not make the structure give gains directly, but indirectly influence the corresponding OP. If you own an OP and 1 of these stations gets captured - the effectiveness of all OP regarding bonuses would be reduced by 1/6. The OP itself gives like 3/6 and each structure 1/6 - so by capturing all 3 structures you could reduce OP effectivity by 50%.

This is another nice idea- but rather than giving income directly to the corp, how about extending their credit, giving them a bonus on harvested resources, or something else that's not so direct?

The problem I see with direct income, instead of additional resources, or extended credit, is that it can lead to an insurmountable advantage- if a corp holds key points long enough, it would gain huge amounts of money, potentially enough to keep them supplied indefinitely- the loss of a few heavy mechs wouldn't mean much.

Instead, give them a larger credit pool, which would allow them to purchase more, but would also require them to re-invest in their holdings. Or additional resources, which they could sell or use to build more. The point is that whatever advantage they receive, it must be returned to the infrastructure (the market) in order to be useful.

The current economy doesn't accurately reflect the cost of being a corporation- large, successful corporations have tremendous power, but they must expend a lot of resources to maintain them.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

Re: What do you expect from PvP in a sandbox

Yes your right, it would espescially inforce the longterm character of such an action and require something to be done afterwards to have an actual gain.

At the moment - the gain of an OP doesnt really feel like a winner becasue the bonus ist rather just cash. If this would be connected more to planning and usage afterwards, it prolly also would feel more of a gain.