Re: Dissapearing NPC's

Well... tried to keep it interesting as much as we could but it doesn't work apparently. We'll change all alpha 2 NPCs to orange.

102

Re: Dissapearing NPC's

DEV Zoom wrote:

Well... tried to keep it interesting as much as we could but it doesn't work apparently. We'll change all alpha 2 NPCs to orange.

Can we compromise here? Instead of all orange on alpha 2, have a mix? Orange where missions send you, red/orange mixed depending on how close they are to say a station/teleporter?

I do agree with Cassius to a point, but also it should not be "easy mode". Alpha 2 is a logical step for PvE players once they outgrown alpha 1, the mobs are harder, but the risk vs reward should also be balanced. Just putting everything to orange is a major yawn fest.

Just a suggestion smile

Duma

103

Re: Dissapearing NPC's

How about this?
Static spawn orange and follow.
Roams red but dont follow.

104 (edited by Rage Rex 2014-04-15 02:42:51)

Re: Dissapearing NPC's

DEV Zoom wrote:

Well... tried to keep it interesting as much as we could but it doesn't work apparently. We'll change all alpha 2 NPCs to orange.

BOOM!!! Shotgun Balancing

Why do you guys insist on having Red NPCs follow forever? What is wrong with the old Rubber Band Mechanic?

And Roaming Spawns, will they be Orange also? How far do you the unintended consequences have to follow befor you realize the original problem needs a different solution?

What is the Original Problem?

EDIT...found it

DEV Zoom wrote:
Jasmoba wrote:

What in the world were you thinking when you made npcs chase you non stop ?

Two things:
1. People have been asking us for years to remove fixed spawns in favor of free roaming NPCs everywhere. We practically did that.
2. If there is any limit that prevents NPCs going further, they become extremely farmable at the boundary.

Apparently this interferes with missions too much.

1.) Remove Fixed Spawns in favor of Roaming NPCs.

"We practically did that" ...are you kidding me? Do I have to explain how stupid that reasoning is? No not stupid, comedic. I think you must be trolling with that rationale.

2.) Limit that prevents NPCs going further ... farmable ... boundary.

Ummm, what? What does that mean? You don't want people "farming" static NPCs? Farming is part of any MMO. People need NIC and KERNALS and whatever. You want the existing playerbase to forever dominate the Research Tree? You don't want new players to "farm" to catch up with the unGodly assets accumulated by vets? WTF are you talking about with Number 2?

And if you are worried about interfering with missions, your Solution to 'fix' interfering with Missions just broke the *** out of Missions.

You guys are high.

Re: Dissapearing NPC's

I'll ask back: is there any real reason to have red NPCs on Alpha2? They are tougher than on Alpha1 either way if you attack them, so pretty much the only effect they caused was sending you around them if you didn't want to fight.

Yes, Alpha2 is supposed to be a more dangerous place than Alpha1, the problem is that players make it more dangerous than intended.

And no, we won't go back to rubberbanding because that was plain stupid and we wanted to solve that since forever.

edit: reasoning with "every other mmo does it like this" is... why the MMO market is where it is.

Re: Dissapearing NPC's

DEV Zoom wrote:

I'll ask back: is there any real reason to have red NPCs on Alpha2? They are tougher than on Alpha1 either way if you attack them, so pretty much the only effect they caused was sending you around them if you didn't want to fight.

Yes, Alpha2 is supposed to be a more dangerous place than Alpha1, the problem is that players make it more dangerous than intended.

And no, we won't go back to rubberbanding because that was plain stupid and we wanted to solve that since forever.

back when you made that change, many liie myself disagreed with the Orange NPC. I loved the challenge of Red NPC on both Alpha.

Balancing is a delicate art. I barely appreciate the nuts and bolts of the coding task you face, but in general your Dev team appears to approaches balancing with too heavy a stick. I just don;t know what to say anymore.

PUT IT BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rebalance NPCs with a REAL PLAN after you finish UPDATING MISSION SYSTEM and GAMMA and STEAM and ...omg where are your priorities?

Re: Dissapearing NPC's

off: I love it how true you are to your name big_smile

108

Re: Dissapearing NPC's

theres reason to have red npc's on all alphas. It stops easy macroing.

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Re: Dissapearing NPC's

Jita wrote:

theres reason to have red npc's on all alphas. It stops easy macroing.

Yes, I would accept that argument if there would be anything on Alpha2 that's not macroable on 1s.

Re: Dissapearing NPC's

DEV Zoom wrote:

off: I love it how true you are to your name big_smile

I earned it smile

Seriously though, it comes from my passion for your generally awesome game. Don't forget that.

111

Re: Dissapearing NPC's

DEV Zoom wrote:

I'll ask back: is there any real reason to have red NPCs on Alpha2? They are tougher than on Alpha1 either way if you attack them, so pretty much the only effect they caused was sending you around them if you didn't want to fight.

Yes, Alpha2 is supposed to be a more dangerous place than Alpha1, the problem is that players make it more dangerous than intended.

I'll answer this from my perspective, others may have a different perspectives. The NPC's here are part of what we all call "content", they are meant to put forward as a reason and challenge to us players. When we all started all mobs were red. We, through loss and adventure learned the ways of the spawns, learned what we could and could not do, understood our limitations. With the introduction of orange spawns the fear and the understanding of mobs just disappeared. Why, because we could just motor through them without a care in the world.. "hey we need a sequer to the mining op, but make sure you go around that spawn here as they demob" they won't care about us, unless we shoot. Ok, so lets go to the 2 bot NPC spawn, because hey that's easy.. new players learn nothing.. hey lets aggro these orange spawns, that is spread right out.. so then we get a single bot at a time aggroing us.. it doesn't make for anything that can panic or concern you. Achieving something that you didn't think you could do, that is what keeps players here.. not mobs that ignore you.

You talk about retaining people, Alpha 1 is a perfect place for orange mobs everywhere. Its a place to further learn and understand game mechanics and to grind away so that you can "progress" in the game. Alpha two, has harder mobs, yes but where is the risk?

The best fun we had on alpha 2 was when we had moving spawns, observers, some nasty spawns, NPCS that would target a sequer who had lost concentration. Call out in the old TOG corp would build a defense group to go remove these away from the miners.. or a call from a member who pulled a bit to much NPC hate and we would go assist, a rescue party to collect the belongings of a fellow player who took on to much.. this is CONTENT. This is what makes the game fun, you seem to forget what happens in a corp even on a Alpha island, we create our own content from what occurs on the island.

So you ask why we need red on Alpha, its to create more content, by going orange, how is this any more challenging than staying on Alpha 1? I can choose who I shoot, i can sit and mine AFK for 6-8 hours.. where is the rush, the planning, the working together?

I'm not saying turn everything red, but you have completely screwed in my mind the balance of Alph1, Alpha 2 and Beta.. they are meant to be stepping blocks, to teach and educate on game mechanics and risk vs reward.

So again my suggestion -

1. Alpha 1 always orange spawns.
2. Alpha 2, orange spawns for missions, red/orange spawns mixed over the island.

Finally, the "the problem is that players make it more dangerous than intended" comment is confusing. Perhaps your entire player base has different understanding of alpha 1, alpha 2 and beta.. if the jump from alpha 2 to beta is so huge ( as it is ), then please educate us to your understanding on how this all works, because frankly a care bear who enjoys PvE will grow bored of Alpha 2 in a month without any "brown pants" moments. I know we did once you oranged the world.. we lost players because it was boring.

IMHO smile

Duma

Re: Dissapearing NPC's

In all seriousness Zoom, you will need to address ore fields at some point. Instant ore respawns completely nullify any need to conquest and secure for more territory.

Meaning it doesn't matter if someone parks 2 people or 2000 people on 1 island. Ore is instant. Ore is infinite. I've had ~30 Riv mk2's pounding the cr*p out of New Virginia and Daoden for weeks now, their only downtime is finding the new field.

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Re: Dissapearing NPC's

Syndic wrote:

In all seriousness Zoom, you will need to address ore fields at some point. Instant ore respawns completely nullify any need to conquest and secure for more territory.

Meaning it doesn't matter if someone parks 2 people or 2000 people on 1 island. Ore is instant. Ore is infinite. I've had ~30 Riv mk2's pounding the cr*p out of New Virginia and Daoden for weeks now, their only downtime is finding the new field.

Syndic was drunk when he posted it.  Please disregard. 

Forgive him for he knows not what he posts.

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Re: Dissapearing NPC's

Duma: that's a very noble way of thinking, and how it should be, but unfortunately you're the 1% of players.

We'll likely re-introduce red NPCs to Alpha2 in the future once we figured out how to do it properly, but quite honestly right now I would be better off without the daily tickets of "xy pulled NPCs on me and I demand my bot back".

115 (edited by Ville 2014-04-15 03:43:26)

Re: Dissapearing NPC's

btw, we still can pull mobs on people.  Very Easily too.

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Re: Dissapearing NPC's

Ville wrote:

btw, we still can pull mobs on people.  Very Easily too.

I rest my case smile

117

Re: Dissapearing NPC's

I don't think you understand the tactical procedures used to have to kite and triangulate the drop off location.  It's almost as much fun as PVP in this game.

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Re: Dissapearing NPC's

DEV Zoom wrote:
Ville wrote:

btw, we still can pull mobs on people.  Very Easily too.

I rest my case smile

Hmmm, I'm now starting to understand why we can't have nice things..

119

Re: Dissapearing NPC's

DEV Zoom wrote:

Duma: that's a very noble way of thinking, and how it should be, but unfortunately you're the 1% of players.

We'll likely re-introduce red NPCs to Alpha2 in the future once we figured out how to do it properly, but quite honestly right now I would be better off without the daily tickets of "xy pulled NPCs on me and I demand my bot back".

Doubt I'm part of the 1%.. we are all arseholes one way or another.. I mean hell this is the internet and robots is serious business(tm). lol big_smile I remember dropping a beacon on a enemy mining group some time back when they aggrooed anything near them and letting the fun start..

What you are telling me here is, "red is ok, but our players are using it to annoy other players.." sandbox right? So what you are saying is game mechanics is causing this problem.. not the players. The players will take what ever the game provides and they can to do what ever they want. It has to be considered every changed that is made that it will be exploited or used to grief someone.. Walls.. man.. its covered in walls!!

My Granddad god rest his drunken soul, had a saying, "Son, if I give ya a inch, you will take a mile".

I understand you should turn the orange back on alpha 2, but do not forget this discussion. We want a challenge and we want to be challenged.. not easy mode smile

Duma

Re: Dissapearing NPC's

DEV Zoom wrote:

Duma: that's a very noble way of thinking, and how it should be, but unfortunately you're the 1% of players.

We'll likely re-introduce red NPCs to Alpha2 in the future once we figured out how to do it properly, but quite honestly right now I would be better off without the daily tickets of "xy pulled NPCs on me and I demand my bot back".

I'll bet Dumas nice summary is more likely the Majority View on NPCs. But you choose to move forward regardless. On the eve of Steam you are completely changing NPC behavior both in Rubber-Band-Go-Follow-Forever and the sudden Napalming of Nia with Agent Orange.

You guys keep surprising me with your weird changes. You say you wanted to change rubber banding "since forever" and use THAT as your rationale for turning NPCs upside down. No actual tested plan. Just why?

121

Re: Dissapearing NPC's

Blocker wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:
Ville wrote:

btw, we still can pull mobs on people.  Very Easily too.

I rest my case smile

Hmmm, I'm now starting to understand why we can't have nice things..

Some of us are PVPers not PVEers.

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Re: Dissapearing NPC's

Zoom

Please think.

Today, before you make all the Alpha 2 orange while you figure out what to do with them, whats better?

1) No Orange spawns anywhere in game. All NPCs rubberband. They are farmable but will kill you if you get too close as a noob. Like it was in the old days.

2) Teleporting, Red here, Orange there, roaming here, Orange Observer Lvl III stashes that only kill the arkhe popping them while the sequer next to them grabs the 3 heavy mech cortexes unmolested. etc, etc.

What do you think is better?

What I would do ....

Alpha 1) All red, all static, set path roaming spawns
Alpha 2) All red, static mission spawns, set path roaming spawns, roaming Observers

Beta) All red, static mission spawns, all other spawns random roaming like Gamma
Gamma) All random roaming red spawns.

Give them a 1000 m chain.

You'll have dangerous and challenging islands.  Setting the path ensures they cannot be pulled onto terminals, and most teles.

You will have a viable form of farming for income for players.

Its not that hard. You had it before and it was balanced.

Re: Dissapearing NPC's

Ville wrote:
Blocker wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

I rest my case smile

Hmmm, I'm now starting to understand why we can't have nice things..

Some of us are PVPers not PVEers.

And the majority of ppl that come from steam will be pve'ers. This is a discussion about NPC's, least it was last I looked, what's your point about pvp ?

I find it amusing that you consider pulling mobs onto players doing pve as "pvp", I consider that griefing, but meh each to his own I guess..

124

Re: Dissapearing NPC's

Blocker wrote:
Ville wrote:
Blocker wrote:

Hmmm, I'm now starting to understand why we can't have nice things..

Some of us are PVPers not PVEers.

And the majority of ppl that come from steam will be pve'ers. This is a discussion about NPC's, least it was last I looked, what's your point about pvp ?

I find it amusing that you consider pulling mobs onto players doing pve as "pvp", I consider that griefing, but meh each to his own I guess..

My point is Sunshine, some people enjoy watching players robots explode.  Others enjoy 100% safety while watching the game play itself.

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125

Re: Dissapearing NPC's

DEV Zoom wrote:

Well... tried to keep it interesting as much as we could but it doesn't work apparently. We'll change all alpha 2 NPCs to orange.

I do understand what you were trying to do. The 'problem' began back when you made the game.

The volumes of Ore and material needed to build robots is based on static spawns of resources that would be harvested by individuals and maybe a hauler alt. That has never changed. I use the word 'problem' loosely. I very much like the Industrial syetem in this game. More now than before with the open kernal system.

Gather materials, Make prototype
Make CT
Gather materials per unit,
Manufacture

Fittings do this X3 up to Meta 3 for a typical Alpha player.

Add in loot compnents needed for research and prototype.

Your system is deep enough and well thought out enough that you don't need to ask people to play hide and seek on alpha. Eliminating these PvP traps is a good choice.

I don't seem to be getting any Noralgis on Alpha from the 10, 40 and 90 randoms and I don't get enough Epri to keep up production. I will need to buy those things from Beta and Gamma players if I want to stay on Alpha. I will also need to 'fight' for resources on alpha if/ when the population increases.

Alpha1, alpha2 and their content are now accessible and that's what they need to be right now. The choices being made are smart choices.

I am a PvP player. I just know better than to do it on the other guys terms and I think that is the defining aspect. Most pleyers who come to this game will be looking for PvP, just not on someobe elses terms. I will go out of my way to make sure they have a plan available to make sure that stays an option. I'm not going to try and control markets, get rich off of new people. I will simply lead by example.

TL:DR You are doing fine. Keep up the good work.