26 Reply by Finibhire (edited by Finibhire 2014-02-18 13:22:34)

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Re: Appealing to More New Players

Blocker:

Perp has always had a time progression. Not sure if your argument that it will be a turn off to new players is valid.. EvE has a time progression system, doesn't seem to put off new players in that game. I think there are other things that would deter a new player from sticking with the game rather than time based progression.

Just because EvE does it and is successful doesn't mean that it's the EP system that made EvE successful.  I personally believe it has more to do with there famous economy which EvE is known for.  It would take an in-depth analysis anyways to make any conclusions there.  I would also like to add that Eve's skill system does definitely put off new players.  There's a very active buy&sell for accounts on EvE.  Also there have been many discussions on Eve forums about it also.

Another way of looking at it though is that Eve is the only major MMO that uses a system like the EP system and is strongly successful.  So the normal experience system is a viable option also considering how many successful MMOs actually use it.  There is no 'rule' that Perpetuum must use the current EP system to be successful.  I tried to come to a middle ground with GEPS though so that the veterans would be less upset about the change.

You might be right, there might be something out there that people are rejecting this game over more than the EP gap.  However I believe the EP gap is a serious issue because it is a topic of constant debate here.  I'm pretty sure if you did a small case study lining up games and find out why people didn't play this one you would find that one of the most recurring fixable/changeable issue would be the gap.  Some of the data might be available already if they have a "why did you quit the game" survey.  I'd be very interested in seeing what the results were on that.

Again though, most issues require a massive modification to the game (adding new features or content).  It takes time and is hard to do well.  What I suggest could be completed by a single programmer in less than a day.  When you look at the amount of effort vs the amount of potential new players it seems like a no-brainer to me.

I want to thank you for staying on topic and being constructive though.  This topic is already degenerating into the tangent of "it's not fair that a new player might have an easier time than I did leveling up."

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Re: Appealing to More New Players

Finibhire wrote:

Besides skill gap has no bearing on my argument.  Most prospective players will reject Perpetuum without further consideration upon learning of the tremendous numerical EP gap that will never lessen between them and a veteran player.

Another thing that you're completely missing out:

Each extension have it's cap at 10. That means, that no matter when, but everyone will have THE SAME extensions.

You might now tell that hey but vets will keep accumulating EP anyway! Well, yes, if talking about total EP amount - newbies will never catch the vets. But should they?

Total EP amount gives nothing more than an e-peen. Spent EP amount - that's what does really matter. But spent EP amount in a given role or even class of roles is limited, so go-go newbies, you will be there sooner or later!

tl;dr: There is no GAP

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
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Re: Appealing to More New Players

Line:

newbies will never catch the vets. But should they?

If it's the only way to entice a significant amount of new players to play Perpetuum.  The answer is "yes".  I haven't seen any other viable alternative with the exception of going full out "pay to win" and account transfers/purchase EP system.

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Re: Appealing to More New Players

Finibhire wrote:

Line:

newbies will never catch the vets. But should they?

If it's the only way to entice a significant amount of new players to play Perpetuum.  The answer is "yes".  I haven't seen any other viable alternative with the exception of going full out "pay to win" and account transfers/purchase EP system.

Again - why would a newbie need the same amount of TOTAL EP, while he need the same amount of SPENT EP to be competitive? Spent EP are reachable. Total EP are not. Newbie needs Spent EP. That's not the gap, that's lvl 1 vs lvl 80.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086
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Re: Appealing to More New Players

Total EP does not equal Effective EP. Vets have a lot of EP spilled on different bots that only benefit some specific fits while missing completely on others. Being competitive is well within reach with good specialization.

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Re: Appealing to More New Players

Finibhire wrote:

GEPS does not "only benifit new players".  In fact I showed that Veterans will maintain their EP advantage regardless.  This is not the case for most games.  Most games there is a "max level" where only skill separates players.  GEPS still gives the EP advantage to Veterans.

You should think about what is the different between a fighter with 6 month ep, 12 month, 18 month and 3 years EP.

All of them can field a HM MK2, all of them can have maxed weapon extension. After 3 year you have just the EP to fill side roles as well with full extensions, while a 6month should concentrate on 1 role.
But is this really a loss? You cannot field a a bot that is reasonalble fitted to fill all roles at once.
I as a long time vet can just select more roles to fill with same agent, this allows me to fill better a gap inside a larger group. But the more Player join a fleet, the less influence has my possibility.

The most advantage has a veteran indu char who can in one char prototype and produce and repair and recycle and refine with best skills, as this requieres at least 3 agents of 6 month to catch up. But is this really that bad that beginners are forced to cooperate with others? Do you really think it is wrong, that a player who want to have the same results as a 3 years old agent needs to buy 3 accounts for 6 month to catch up with someone who spend twice the $$?

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Re: Appealing to More New Players

Finibhire .... I think you are missing the point a bit.

I completely understand why you or new players taking a look at this game would instantly zero in on the EP differences between players and lament about never catching up, its a very easy and obvious target. And honestly, no amount of discussion will dissuade those who believe this.

Its just not reality or how the game actually works. You have pointed out some contradictory things, sense of accomplishment by earning things, no handouts, but you want basically an accelerated start. Higher value EP for noobs is both essentially a handout and easier for them ... This game in its current format, without a solid method to transfer characters and with a constant EP/$ ratio ... is not "pay2win". Every minute you invest into the game, you get better. You don't win the game, but tasks get a little easier, both with available skills and practice/experience. You cannot buy extra minutes or get them faster than anyone else can. Thats what makes this system fair, and its the CORE BASIC PRINCIPLE behind the business model, you pay for each minute you play. Its up to the Devs to give us the basics that make us want to pay and play.

When I cited the examples of soloing a Observer stash on alpha and even killing a rank 4 ewar in a trial light, I meant those as an example of challenging content for my current skill level and abilities. I think what most new players fail to grasp is although you cannot do everything in game in the first day, you should have enough content thruout the life and ability of your character to keep you busy (this is a principle, not saying Perp is perfect in this regard). Me and my EP do not prevent you from playing the game at your level, and this is the reason why EP gap is not an issue, or sholudn't be.

Can a new player build a gamma base? Sure he has the technical ability, but chances are he would die horribly by someone bigger.

Can a new player take and hold a beta sap? Again yes, technically, but the same as above would happen.

Can a new player mine Epri on beta? Yup, and same risks and results to be expected.

Now ask yourself this, can a high EP vet do the same activities? the answer is yes, but he would die just as horribly, just with more expensive loot.

Why? because the activities I mentioned are meant as corp activites, not solo player activities. EP has nothing to do with it. If this game was all vets, and one noob, then absolutely the noob is at a disadvantage and will never catch up. But everything in this game is dynamic and fluid, that includes alliances, outpost ownership, beta ownership, and playerbase.  Historically, there will always be more new players in game than vets, at any time, and probably I would guess a 3:1 ratio.  This is a sandbox, the game has parameters, and content, but the primary content is player interaction, whether its market or indy or pvp or corp. If you look at the fact that a new player has 3x the amount of similarly skilled players in his gameworld, he has content.

I see the biggest problem for new players is poor tutorial on how to play, not EP ... I have high hopes for the NPE as a means to retain players ... I agree the amount of EP to start with is tough to swallow, or appears daunting ... but it shouldnt be game breaking, you have to start somewhere. If it is gamebreaking for you its probably not the right game for you. This definitley is not the style of game for everyone. But I really like the idea of allowing a EP bonus for players who have shown they like and understand the basics of the game, ie have subbed for more than a few months ...its a fair retention bonus and a decent carrot for those who choose to stick it out.

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Re: Appealing to More New Players

I rarely see such high quality conversation here, so hats off.

I only want to react to one false premise/conclusion here, which is "the EP gap is why we don't have new players". It's really not, by far. It might contribute to it minimally, but the number one reason we don't have new players is because we don't have a marketing budget. At all.

And you could argue that we don't need marketing to keep existing players, and you would be somewhat right. However, there is no such thing as 100% player retention. Everyone will leave sooner or later, and healthy MMOs work because they can combat this by constantly bringing in enough new players.

Content, features, mechanics, perception, etc only comes after this in line of ways to get a nice playerbase. We can be as appealing as we want if people simply don't know about us.

Anyway that's just my 2c on the topic of "correlation does not imply causation", carry on smile

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Re: Appealing to More New Players

Finibhire wrote:

If you had two players of equal skill playing the person with more EP wins.  Thus EP does matter enough to decide the outcome of equal skill players.

Wrong. Completely wrong, actually... I don't know any other way to tell you it. I can be a dedicated awesome assault bot pilot with all my ep spent in assbot skills and wipe the floor with someone with 5 times the ep, but has spent their ep more in mechs or ewar, but are piloting an assbot at the time.

More EP DOES NOT mean better.

Finibhire wrote:

Besides skill gap has no bearing on my argument.  Most prospective players will reject Perpetuum without further consideration upon learning of the tremendous numerical EP gap that will never lessen between them and a veteran player.

A little exaggeration to try and prove your point maybe? I would love to know what evidence you have to back up your conclusion that nearly everyone who will try perpetuum will leave due to a "tremendous numerical ep gap". TBH, I have heard a lot of reasons why people stopped playing perpetuum. The "EP Gap" has not been one of them. If this change was made I suspect it would have zero influence on the amount of new people trying the game or the amount of people that would stay around because of it. It is only a nice little boost for new players who are already here and are staying around.

And that doesn't seem like a good enough reason to cheapen the entire EP system, IMO.

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

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Re: Appealing to More New Players

we had these kind of discussions multibel times before. but what i want to add here:

there are not many mmos out there wehere a new player can jump in and batte with the vets.
in other mmos you have to level up first, then you have to get high level gear to compete with them.

here you have to level up your ep and get the high level gear as well.

so is this so much different or are you just looking at it from the wrong perspective?

yes its a bit different, and you cant speed it up by playing 24/7. but should you?

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Re: Appealing to More New Players

ive said it once ill say it a 1000 times. a smart new player will always win against a stupid Vet  smile

& i 2nd what the above few posters have said on this subject

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue
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Re: Appealing to More New Players

DEV Zoom:

Thanks for taking the time to read my arguments and respond.  I appreciate being heard by the DEV team.

I only want to react to one false premise/conclusion here, which is "the EP gap is why we don't have new players". It's really not, by far. It might contribute to it minimally, but the number one reason we don't have new players is because we don't have a marketing budget. At all.

That's a very strong point.  Something that I forgot to consider is that you have a very limited marketing budget and that likely contributes more to the lack of new players than the EP gap.  Although I don't think it invalidates my premise that it is a leading issue for new players that can be fixed by the DEV team in a reasonable period of time. 

Right now you are developing new content for the game or fixing old content.  I don't believe that making those changes to the game will prove to bring in more new players or retain more old players than fixing the EP gap issue.  I might be wrong, I don't have access to the game exit poles of people quitting the game in under a few months of play.  Do you have them?  I'm also unable to do a case study on the topic. 

There is some evidence that I have access to that lead me to believe my premise is true.  Of the new players I've talked with the EP gap is at least a major concern and I've never seen it approached in a positive light from the perspective of a new player.  It also seems to be a topic of constant debate here on the forums by a number of people that play this game for other redeeming aspects despite heavily disliking the constant disadvantage they feel they are forced to endure.

So, with the limited resources I have access to this is why I've made my premise what it is.  I'd be happy to look at any evidence that shows that new players consider the EP gap a positive attribute of the game.  Also I'd welcome any evidence that shows EP gap is not one of the leading causes why new players will reject this game. 

On the other hand, I concede my entire argument if the premise is false. 

I think at the very least a case study done on the concerns of new/potential players should be done before the steam release.  Address the concerns of these new players before the STEAM release to get the maximum draw possible from the release.  That's ultimately what I want and what I think the game needs.  More new players.  Also it would be a way of closing the books on the issue of the EP gap if it shows that it's not a major concern of new players (well, at least for a while).

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Re: Appealing to More New Players

Line wrote:
Finibhire wrote:

Line:

newbies will never catch the vets. But should they?

If it's the only way to entice a significant amount of new players to play Perpetuum.  The answer is "yes".  I haven't seen any other viable alternative with the exception of going full out "pay to win" and account transfers/purchase EP system.

Again - why would a newbie need the same amount of TOTAL EP, while he need the same amount of SPENT EP to be competitive? Spent EP are reachable. Total EP are not. Newbie needs Spent EP. That's not the gap, that's lvl 1 vs lvl 80.

I'm aware that you think that a Vet is entitled to the EP gap and any advantages (or not) that it brings.  I'm saying it might be something a vet will have to give up part of to bring in new blood.  (not even give it up entirely just some of it, the vet will still have an EP advantage over any newer player using GEPS)

I've said this in my original post, in responses to others and directly to you already in slightly different ways.  I'd prefer not to have to repeat myself again but it seems inevitable.  If you would like to be constructive, show me why my premise is wrong or show me why letting new players close the EP gap a bit would not be more enticing to new players than the current system.

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Re: Appealing to More New Players

Cassius:

I agree the amount of EP to start with is tough to swallow, or appears daunting ... but it shouldnt be game breaking, you have to start somewhere.

That is the core of the issue I'm trying to get at.  My argument is that it's gamebreaking for enough people that if we change this aspect of the game, the game would become considerably more successful and entice considerably more new players. 

If it is gamebreaking for you its probably not the right game for you.

Another thing I'm tired of hearing.  A todler understands this concept.  When I hear this, it just sounds like you feel threatened that you might lose what you have.  It sounds like you would like me to leave because I might incite change if I stay around.

As for the whole pay2win.  I define pay2win as paying for an in-game benefit with real money.

So if you are upset because the value of EP per dollar spent on the game would be reduced that means you weren't buying only play time with your subscription, you were buying EP.  Which means you were buying an in-game benifit and you're upset because you're going to get less for your money than someone else.  Thus the game is defined as pay2win.

However if you were only buying play time with your subscription changes to the EP system might be upsetting but not because you felt that you had bought EP and it was being devalued.

Higher value EP for noobs is both essentially a handout and easier for them

I don't deny that it would could make the game easier for noobs.  If you want to define that as a "handout" so be it.  I was just trying to distinguish the difference between a lump sum handout and a gradual gain.  You originally said something to the effect that if we just gave a noob everything at the start of the game it wouldn't be fun.  I agree, however GEPS doesn't do that.  In fact it's still considerably slower to get to end game content than most competing MMOs.

40 Reply by Finibhire (edited by Finibhire 2014-02-19 09:47:21)

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Re: Appealing to More New Players

Shadowmine wrote:
Finibhire wrote:

If you had two players of equal skill playing the person with more EP wins.  Thus EP does matter enough to decide the outcome of equal skill players.

Wrong. Completely wrong, actually... I don't know any other way to tell you it. I can be a dedicated awesome assault bot pilot with all my ep spent in assbot skills and wipe the floor with someone with 5 times the ep, but has spent their ep more in mechs or ewar, but are piloting an assbot at the time.

Your statement is true but you don't consider effective EP allocation a skill.  If one player does not have the intelligence to use his EP effectively then he obviously has very little skill in using his EP.  Thus there is a huge skill difference (in the terms of what is effective to win a battle in the game) between the players.

So yes, if you completely dominate in your skills for being an effective Perpetuum player you can win battles despite having less EP.  But if you are fighting someone with equivalent skills at being an effective Perpetuum player, EP is the deciding factor.  So in your own, and oh, so eloquent words "Wrong.  Completely wrong". 

Shadowmine wrote:

More EP DOES NOT mean better.

I never once said or implied that having more EP means you will be a higher skill player or that you would win every battle you go into even if you're an idiot that can't allocate EP.  I don't know how you got this impression or why you felt like you needed to go off-topic to correct presumed view I have.  I take some of the blame myself for responding to an off-topic comment in the first place but please stay on topic in the future. 

Shadowmine wrote:
Finibhire wrote:

Besides skill gap has no bearing on my argument.  Most prospective players will reject Perpetuum without further consideration upon learning of the tremendous numerical EP gap that will never lessen between them and a veteran player.

A little exaggeration to try and prove your point maybe? I would love to know what evidence you have to back up your conclusion that nearly everyone who will try perpetuum will leave due to a "tremendous numerical ep gap". TBH, I have heard a lot of reasons why people stopped playing perpetuum. The "EP Gap" has not been one of them. If this change was made I suspect it would have zero influence on the amount of new people trying the game or the amount of people that would stay around because of it. It is only a nice little boost for new players who are already here and are staying around.

I've provided what evidence I have in my response to DEV Zoom.  If you still reject that premise there's no need to argue any further.  It's a disagreement that could only be solved by a case study & research.


Here's an analogy that I like to make.  (it's an analogy so it's not perfect but I hope it will help illuminate my perspective)

I have a chess club that I'm trying to sell memberships for.  I've been running for a while now too and I have 200 members currently.  However unlike most mainstream chess clubs we play so that all new players don't get to play with any of their pawns.  For every 3 months they pay membership fees they can play with one more pawn up to a maximum of 7.  Only the veterans that joined on day 1 will get that 8th pawn.

It's a *** hard sell when all the other competing chess clubs let you play on an even playing field after a nominal probationary period.  Sure, I'll get some people to join my game anyways and pronounce it's the best thing since sliced bread but it's very hard to have enough redeeming qualities to actually pull in more new players than my competitors.  With enough advertising I could likely do it but imagine how much more successful I could be if I didn't have the messed up system that caters to the veterans.

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Re: Appealing to More New Players

Let's look at EVE. Worse in terms of how SP is implemented (you cannot just subscribe and allocate at any time, you need to queue specific skills), yet their subscription count growth has been constant (and oddly linear).

Catering to new players is what kills games.

Perpetuum Killboard

42 Reply by Finibhire (edited by Finibhire 2014-02-19 09:56:49)

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Re: Appealing to More New Players

Doek wrote:

Catering to new players is what kills games.

Just more unsubstantiated rhetoric.  I refer you to WoW, well known for catering to the casual/new player and also the highest grossing MMO ever.  DEV Zoom said it himself, no MMO has 100% retention rate.  There has to be incentive for a new player to join the game or the game will die.

So the inverse of your statement is far more likely to be true:  catering to the veterans at the expense of the new player is what kills games.

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Re: Appealing to More New Players

Finibhire wrote:

I'm aware that you think that a Vet is entitled to the EP gap and any advantages (or not) that it brings.  I'm saying it might be something a vet will have to give up part of to bring in new blood.  (not even give it up entirely just some of it, the vet will still have an EP advantage over any newer player using GEPS)

I've said this in my original post, in responses to others and directly to you already in slightly different ways.  I'd prefer not to have to repeat myself again but it seems inevitable.  If you would like to be constructive, show me why my premise is wrong or show me why letting new players close the EP gap a bit would not be more enticing to new players than the current system.

To obtain max possible damage (taking into account extensions only), you need to level up just 3 extensions, each is lvl 10 cap. How the hell a vet will have more advantage in terms of EP if a newbie will train the same 3 extensions to the same lvl 10?

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086
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Re: Appealing to More New Players

Finibhire wrote:
Doek wrote:

Catering to new players is what kills games.

Just more unsubstantiated rhetoric.  I refer you to WoW, well known for catering to the casual/new player and also the highest grossing MMO ever.  DEV Zoom said it himself, no MMO has 100% retention rate.  There has to be incentive for a new player to join the game or the game will die.

You cannot be serious about making a point on Perpetuum while referring to WoW. These games couldn't be more different.  Besides, joining a game and deciding to stay are two different things.

Anyway you want a case study:

- http://themittani.com/features/why-newbies-quit-eve
- http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/04/03 … retention/
- grab Google and search for 'quitting eve' or 'can i has your stuff'

EVE's the closest thing you can get to Perpetuum as far as a case.

Finibhire wrote:

So yes, if you completely dominate in your skills for being an effective Perpetuum player you can win battles despite having less EP.  But if you are fighting someone with equivalent skills at being an effective Perpetuum player, EP is the deciding factor.  So in your own, and oh, so eloquent words "Wrong.  Completely wrong".

Hardly. Deciding when to commit to a fight might be the most essential skill of any effective Perpetuum player. Knowledge and experience (and having a brain) wins fights (or prevent losses).

My personal belief; EP works in absolute favor of the game, especially for new players. It adds that layer of meaningfulness to the game, while crushing bittervets with all their superior equipment and numerical advantages.

Perpetuum Killboard

45 Reply by Celebro (edited by Celebro 2014-02-19 16:52:01)

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Re: Appealing to More New Players

Good well thought out O.P; but I really see a problem of wrong perception, of how little the EP gap really affects new players, rather than the one based on reality.

The reality is higher level extension (lvl8,9,10) require much more EP spent for just a few percent in advantage, this gives new player a chance to skill up the lower levels much quicker whilst vet players are still waiting months to get that lvl 10 extension. Once that lvl 10 extension is done there is not way to widen the gap the new player will narrow it.
The only difference is vet players will have much more different extensions to do a wide range of abilities,but on just one ability new player gaps closes pretty fast as there is nothing to go for after you complete to lvl 10.

RIP PERPETUUM
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Re: Appealing to More New Players

I have been playing eve since 2004 and like DEV Zoom point out EP gap or SP for eve turn off only a small % of player’s base. Thing like to much travel time be twin mission or mining spot on starter area “ Hi sec for eve or Alpha for Perpetuum “ do far more damage to retention then EP gap.

The average age of MMORPG players is around 26. In fact, only 25% of MMORPG players are teenagers. About 50% of MMORPG players work full-time. About 36% of players are married, and 22% have children
This is a quote took from this link: http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/gateway … phics.html

Myself I do fall whiting the work full-time, married and about to have children. If I spend 4H average in game every day and 50% of that time is spend traveling no matter the amount of EP it will turn me off
Far more then any EP gap be twin me and vet and my limited time and $ will go somewhere hels.

Ho and the best fix eve dev got in  a few year back was warp to 0 to cut time travel for active player auto pilot still at 15km ask most old eve player about the fix and how it was befor.

well my 2nic out of this.

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Re: Appealing to More New Players

Athough you are inviting discussion with your post, please try to be a little less dismissive of the response you are getting. You are getting familiar replies because this topic always comes up, and the arguments for it and against it have been well gone over many times.

Before you suggest I am trying to protect an advantage I may have over new new players please understand my point of view going forward.

I have 3 accounts that I have invested roughly $900 total, today, and another 2 that I have spent roughly $250 on.
That is $1150, give or take a nic or 2.

If this game dies, for whatever reason, that money and time I have invested is down the drain, gone, wasted. Thanks Devs for the entertainment, but its done.  My precious EP advantage is then worth ***, and will not look good on a resume.

So my interests are this game moving forward, first, before my personal character, my corporation, my alliance, and whatever assets I/we have in game. This game needs new players, it needs to grow, and soon, or it's done. I spend much of my time helping new players navigate the many aspects to this game, in the hopes they stay ... It doesnt matter to me whether they are friend or enemy.

So that is my perspective when I respond to you here. Am I clear?
The reason I disagree with your premise is because its wrong. I know many many players who have quit. Very few if any cited an EP gap as the main or even important reason.

Regardless, as a small fix for a small problem to ease the transition I have already suggested a different way to allot the initial EP that is hopefully more effective on retaining new players.

When a new player can level 1-8 in the exact same time a vet can level 9-10, there is in effect already an accelerated catch up mechanism. Assuming a 3% increase per level in a skill, at Day one of a noobs life he is 27% less effective in a particular skill than a vet .. If it takes 2 months to level 8 ... At day 60 the noob is only 6% less effective than a vet. seems like a accelerated learning curve to me.

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Re: Appealing to More New Players

DEV Zoom wrote:

because we don't have a marketing budget. At all.

And you could argue that we don't need marketing to keep existing players, and you would be somewhat right. However, there is no such thing as 100% player retention. Everyone will leave sooner or later, and healthy MMOs work because they can combat this by constantly bringing in enough new players.

Hi Devs, it's been mentioned before but you can minimize marketing cost simply by establishing a referral program, get 1 to join, get a month for free or something along that line. That is the cheapest marketing with minimal effort on your part

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Re: Appealing to More New Players

I agree with everything Cassius just said...

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

Scarab Kill Count:2

50 Reply by Tux (edited by Tux 2014-02-20 04:24:25)

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Re: Appealing to More New Players

Finibhire, I applaud you for taking the time to PM me & reply to just about every one that has commented on your post with all of the reasons that they are wrong and you are correct. I think you may need to take a step back and really talk to other players. Seems that you have focused on a problem that doesn't exist. wink

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.