Topic: Follow-up to our investigation of the "cargo overload" exploit

If you haven't heard of it yet, we had an exploit where you could put more items in a robot's cargo than the limit would allow. We have conducted an investigation to find out whether this exploit has been used to gain any excessive money using transport assignments.

There is some weird hearsay going on among you that we picked certain corporations and only did the investigation on them. I'd like to stress that this is not true.

Since the cargo overload exploit could be brought in relation with a high number of aborted transport assignments, this is the pattern that we were looking for. We did the queries for individuals; their name, their corporation membership, or who their friends or enemies are had no role in this. Unfortunately we don't have the time to follow ingame politics, so we have no idea even who your friends or enemies are.

And I would like to take this opportunity to inform you that this is how we always conduct our investigation. Sure, we usually get a report that mentions a certain player or corporation, but if we find out the exact nature of the exploit, we immediatelly extend our search to all players, using the available patterns.

As I mentioned, the available pattern in this case was an excessive number of aborted transport missions. Unfortunately this also created a lot of false alarms, since apparently some of you do transport missions with this method. Legally, without using an exploit, but in a different way than how we designed the game mechanic. Our current standpoint on this method is that it only helps you perhaps to do a large number of missions more conveniently and together with friends, but it stays within the allowed game mechanics. The method will become obsolete once we implement the random assignment system mentioned in our latest devblog.

So when I say that this pattern created a lot of false alarms, I actually mean that of all the suspected individuals, each one of them turned out as a false alarm.

Most of the suspected and suspended accounts have been already reactivated after a few hours, the investigation of the last one has been concluded today and it also has been cleared. Naturally we have extended the expiration time of all involved accounts to cover for the lost time.

Moral of the story?

I guess it's the case where a number of you knew about the exploit and none of you used it like this. I think this is something to be proud of.

---

However, this is only a part of the case.

We concluded that the exploit wasn't used in transport assignments, but it could be used in other parts of the game, where you don't necessarily gain excessive wealth from it, but an advantage in combat for example.

And these are the cases where we have hit a wall. We do not keep logs that a robot cargo has been overloaded anytime, anywhere. We do not keep logs when you put an item from your storage to your cargo or the other way, because that would be an unnecessary stress for the server. We only keep logs when an item switches owners.

We can only make some vague deductions based on stacking/unstacking events or when items are actually put back and forth into a corporation storage. Because of this, we cannot conduct a global investigation for "overloaded cargo used for whatever".

Even if we could prove the usage of the exploit, cases like "this guy would have lost his robot if not for the exploit" or "this gamma base couldn't have been evacuated if not for the exploit" is a can of worms that we don't want to open. These events carry so many consequences that we would get hopelessly entangled in trying to straighten them out. Pretty much like when someone wants to correct the future from the past in a time travelling movie.

Yes, we could ban the individual for using the exploit, without trying to set it right what he did, but for this we would need a suspect. The reports we have received so far turned out to be false, which already gives me the feeling that the hysteria surrounding this exploit is larger than the actual usage of it. But I don't blame you, better safe than sorry.


Well, that's pretty much all I can tell you. If you still have questions I'll try to answer it here, but since this already borders on discussing moderation, I won't promise that you'll get an answer. Also please no namecalling or "but but ban xy because I hate his face!!1".

Re: Follow-up to our investigation of the "cargo overload" exploit

Seems reasonable and fair. Just a pity that i'm the only one who will probably say so big_smile

Re: Follow-up to our investigation of the "cargo overload" exploit

thats what i wanted to read in that other topic.

i just unhappy that you dont see that mission exploit as problem.

since this method of gaining fast and easy NIC without limit only accessible to outpost owner on beta islands, there is no way i could do them to benefit from it.

Beta outpot mission should have been removed the day you enabled outpost-lockdown.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Follow-up to our investigation of the "cargo overload" exploit

Anni: we did not want to remove them because they also contribute to what little advantage an owned outpost holds. But as said this won't be a problem anymore soon.

5 (edited by Celebro 2013-02-16 22:23:36)

Re: Follow-up to our investigation of the "cargo overload" exploit

Good to hear some investigation has been done, whoever due the mass hysteria some players make out of a minor exploit I do regret that this was an utter waste of time for Developers.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Follow-up to our investigation of the "cargo overload" exploit

Celebro: I wouldn't say it was an utter waste of time, at the very least it made us rethink some of our logging practices.

Re: Follow-up to our investigation of the "cargo overload" exploit

This woulda made my artemis fit really effective again, oh the fun that could have been had :*(

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

8 (edited by BandwagonX9000 2013-02-16 23:41:18)

Re: Follow-up to our investigation of the "cargo overload" exploit

So next time I see a combat wreck with humongous quantities of boosters I'll just tell myself all is as expected and not worthy of investigation.

Re: Follow-up to our investigation of the "cargo overload" exploit

Zoom you do know that the person(s) that reported this exploit probably found it in the first place and used it, not in the means of your logging....which is sad.

but I think you should not have told these people of your limitations, because now they will exploit that.

2nd Top Killer 2012
02: 061 -- 353 -- 292 : Xadhoom


"Annihilator no fix for crashes when fighting burial/merkle/xadhoom ?"

Re: Follow-up to our investigation of the "cargo overload" exploit

BandwagonX9000 wrote:

So next time I see a combat wreck with humongous quantities of boosters I'll just tell myself all is as expected and not worthy of investigation.

No, see relevant part from my post:

"Yes, we could ban the individual for using the exploit, without trying to set it right what he did, but for this we would need a suspect."

Re: Follow-up to our investigation of the "cargo overload" exploit

DEV Zoom wrote:
BandwagonX9000 wrote:

So next time I see a combat wreck with humongous quantities of boosters I'll just tell myself all is as expected and not worthy of investigation.

No, see relevant part from my post:

"Yes, we could ban the individual for using the exploit, without trying to set it right what he did, but for this we would need a suspect."

Translation.....

Get a screen shoot *** or it didn't happen

*edit: Offensive. - DEV Zoom

2nd Top Killer 2012
02: 061 -- 353 -- 292 : Xadhoom


"Annihilator no fix for crashes when fighting burial/merkle/xadhoom ?"

Re: Follow-up to our investigation of the "cargo overload" exploit

Wish I could log in this weekend and get the whole story!  Such drama! But wait, you banned people on the basis of another player's accusation without proof?   That seems like a slippery slope that can be exploited on its own.  Hopefully you learned a lesson on reacting to hysterical accusations.

Re: Follow-up to our investigation of the "cargo overload" exploit

IndustryMonkey: I'm not sure whether you're trolling or not, but as I wrote all involved accounts are active again.

We didn't ban people based on hysterical accusations. As I have explained in my post, we banned based on the pattern that was related to the exploit. This "shoot first, ask questions later" handling is necessary to prevent any possible further damage to the economy in these cases.

Re: Follow-up to our investigation of the "cargo overload" exploit

IndustryMonkey wrote:

Wish I could log in this weekend and get the whole story!  Such drama! But wait, you banned people on the basis of another player's accusation without proof?   That seems like a slippery slope that can be exploited on its own.  Hopefully you learned a lesson on reacting to hysterical accusations.

Trust me when i say that they have taken this  "Shoot first, Ask questions later" approach before, more so than in just this above mentioned post.

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

Re: Follow-up to our investigation of the "cargo overload" exploit

To be fair, I don't know whether I'm trolling or not either....I think its more just intended to be commentary.   And your point on an observed specific action/log that triggered your action is fair.  In my mod days I had the opportunity to just "watch" a player in game to see if what they are doing is suspect.  It certainly helped when the creative player who figured out the latest equipment combination was accused of modding.

Re: Follow-up to our investigation of the "cargo overload" exploit

To the people that were "temporarily banned" I would say this is unforgivable. What kind of nonsense is a system that says "guilty until proven innocent." This is a system I do not want to be a part of in life or in a game.

Re: Follow-up to our investigation of the "cargo overload" exploit

Canthra Monero wrote:

To the people that were "temporarily banned" I would say this is unforgivable. What kind of nonsense is a system that says "guilty until proven innocent." This is a system I do not want to be a part of in life or in a game.

Oh yeah, instead of putting them in quarantine to prevent any more damage you want them to continue running havoc.

Most of you are pathetic whiners. Whine about every single thing. Lately I only read whines on the forums.

So bad.

Re: Follow-up to our investigation of the "cargo overload" exploit

Canthra Monero wrote:

To the people that were "temporarily banned" I would say this is unforgivable. What kind of nonsense is a system that says "guilty until proven innocent." This is a system I do not want to be a part of in life or in a game.

The devs didn't say guilty. They said suspects with grounds for some action to look into the offense. They were arressted. Sat in jail for a bit until released and found "Not guilty". That is how real life works.

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

Re: Follow-up to our investigation of the "cargo overload" exploit

If history is any criteria for making an informed opinion, I'd bet there's a lot more cans of worms behind the stage.

If trading accounts is suddenly legit due to the low level of subs, how can they ban someone who throws $100 on the game every month? This opens up an entirely different can of worms unfortunately, in the meanwhile the show must go on. smile

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: Follow-up to our investigation of the "cargo overload" exploit

Syndic wrote:

If history is any criteria for making an informed opinion, I'd bet there's a lot more cans of worms behind the stage.

If trading accounts is suddenly legit due to the low level of subs, how can they ban someone who throws $100 on the game every month? This opens up an entirely different can of worms unfortunately, in the meanwhile the show must go on. smile

*** It will always be a question Devs in any game will have to deal with ... conduct of players who insist on pushing grey areas of games.

Let the Devs deal with it.

There are too many forum player Devs as is right now, pushing their own agendas against other players simply because it will give them an advantage in game somehow, rather than truly caring about the game itself.

*edit: Accusations. - DEV Zoom

Re: Follow-up to our investigation of the "cargo overload" exploit

Jasdemi wrote:
Canthra Monero wrote:

To the people that were "temporarily banned" I would say this is unforgivable. What kind of nonsense is a system that says "guilty until proven innocent." This is a system I do not want to be a part of in life or in a game.

Oh yeah, instead of putting them in quarantine to prevent any more damage you want them to continue running havoc.

Most of you are pathetic whiners. Whine about every single thing. Lately I only read whines on the forums.

So bad.

can you be more specific "Most of you are pathetic whiners".

2nd Top Killer 2012
02: 061 -- 353 -- 292 : Xadhoom


"Annihilator no fix for crashes when fighting burial/merkle/xadhoom ?"

Re: Follow-up to our investigation of the "cargo overload" exploit

"The logs show nothing" tongue

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

Re: Follow-up to our investigation of the "cargo overload" exploit

So if can's aren't/weren't logged then how do you know what drops from a bot when you reimburse it?

Also how do you know how much to reimburse when a can on the field is lost?

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

Re: Follow-up to our investigation of the "cargo overload" exploit

Maybe I wasn't clear, but where did I write that we don't log field containers?

25 (edited by Syndic 2013-02-18 01:59:34)

Re: Follow-up to our investigation of the "cargo overload" exploit

*edit: Accusations. - DEV Zoom

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice