26 (edited by Obi Wan Kenobi 2013-02-05 06:33:44)

Re: A better Picture

Mouse Slayer wrote:

Stuff.


I dont know who you are but i dont really care, Its seems you lack proper understanding of the history of this game & the many DEV <> player interactions this game has had in the past which were not so good...

I know this is hard but ignore my PHM tag. im not aiming my comments at Merkle, STC, NEBS, CIR, PHM, M2S etc....

I like the idea of account gifting, why waste a good alt & you get to support the game.

But doing it / handling it in a "you can do it but its still not legal & we can change our mind at any time with no warning" kind of manner is bad bad bad baaad.

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

Re: A better Picture

Hey Obi ... I think you are handling this the right way ... in how you're asking.  Keep it up.

But Mouse actually posted a pretty accurate picture of what has probably occured. Ville's constant bullshit whining isnt gonna get him anywhere. What Syndic and CIR did is not the same as this "gifted" stuff.

The EULA could and maybe should be changed somewhat to be slightly more clear.  But the bottom line is intent.
A single player multiboxing 9 mining accounts is not an exploit. A corp or group of players sharing the same number of accounts mining the same amount of time is exploiting.

Lets be honest .. the offense Syndic actually got banned for wasnt important, it was his conduct that earned him the ban. Arrogance and Stupidity.  Its the Devs game.  They alone will enforce the EULA when they see the inent of it is not being followed. If PHM spent a quarter of the time they spend crying on the forums actually playing the game they might not be getting their *** kicked all the time. And Ville likes to say STC would be nothing without Merkle. What corp wouldnt be worse off with out an excellent FC or leader?  Heck without Merkle we'd be like ...PHM. Well, maybe not that bad.

But instead of getting Lemon to cry on the forums for you why not get him to actually play and maybe FC one of your fleets?  Would probably be more effective.

Re: A better Picture

I got banned because CIR Perp guys were gifting accounts to CIR guys that never played Perp. That's why only 1 account was banned and not all those supposedly "shared" miner accounts.

None of that is relevant, whats relevant is what Obi Wan posted:

"I like the idea of account gifting, why waste a good alt & you get to support the game.

But doing it / handling it in a "you can do it but its still not legal & we can change our mind at any time with no warning" kind of manner is bad bad bad baaad."

Why is it relevant to me? Because there's obviously still accounts to be gifted and I'd prefer my guys didn't waste money and time on a game only to get banned when Zoom & co. change their minds again.

Black & white. No grey.

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: A better Picture

From the economical point of view, model of "gifting" isn't acceptable for DEVs by obvious reasons - they get less money. So I believe that such "gifting", if any, should be registered and some fee to be paid. Ofc, there is still technical difficulties to track illegal gifting, but at least, that's the way to go.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: A better Picture

The DEVs have no loss through account trading/gifting - since it doesn't matter if someone pays for a fresh new account, or continues to pay an old account.

account sharing at the other hand, is a loss because a shared account replaces alt-account of several players at the same time. each of them would need to pay extra money to the DEVs to do the same thing as they do with the shared one.
to more player share same account - the more loss for the DEVs.

the whole thing is, that account trading makes your agent name meaningless. TBH, DEVs should make account trading LEGAL, but only if they drop some anonymity that comes with the current game mechanics, and punish any violations against the trading rules without exception:

1. a traded account will change email permanently. since it was traded through official channels, the previous owner should have no easy option to get back access to the account via support

2. force agent rename upon account trade - but keep a public visible history in agent profile of former names

3. previous names or emails cannot be used ever again on that account

4. auto-revoke all ingame standings and corp access levels of the agents on traded accounts

5. ban every accoun't that was traded without using the official method.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: A better Picture

It DOES matter. Imagine you're player p1. You play for a while then stopped. You've paid amount of money a1. Then there is me as player p2. I've came after you and I have 2 options - to play from the beginning or to use account gifted by you. Noone is effective right from the start, and I want to be effective. For that, I need to play for a while, says, until I'll reach at least your level. So if I will use your account, I will have that level already and don't need to pay a1 but can play further and pay amount b1. However, If you're too greedy to gift me your account, I should pay a1 before I will strat to pay b1. So as the result:

Gifted account - b1
New account - a1+b1

I suggest there is no need to show which total is bigger.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: A better Picture

Changing the research tree to include corp based research eliminates about the only valid 'reason' to share an account. Combat and miner sharing is obviously an unfair advantage, even if the sharing party has a paid 'low-ep' agent.

High-EP accounts have acutal value. Each of those EP was purchased with game time, there's no other way to gain them. If AC doesn't allow accounts to be traded/gifted/sold, then they become worthless.

Perp and Eve use a lot of meta-gaming, forming alliances, breaking alliances, trading ect ect. These are things the game doesn't control directly. Perp is more enticing to play if the accounts have 'value', and face it, this game needs active players too, not accounts sitting around gathering EP.

Sharing is bad. Having more player controlled robots in the game is good. We can't be talking about a large number of accounts, maybe 100 (from all corps), it only seems large when the game's active base is less than 200.

33 (edited by Goffer 2013-02-05 18:36:46)

Re: A better Picture

To me a major issue to account gifting/sharing is not the fact, that you would need only few miner/corp. The major issue is the fact, that a full researched prototyper stoping playing might do a lot damage to a corp, whilel getting a full learned prototyper will bring you far ahead in game.

Those corps who share prototyper have major advantage over those not sharing. So how to handle that fair? I think it is impossible to handle that fair without very strict and clear rules. It is not fair if you loose your major prototyper, but hey that's gameplay, I had to deal with this several times now. In the end it is by far more unfair, if someone gets a full learned prototyper in inofficial ways, while others care about EULA.

Nevertheless I understand the point of DEVs. It's the point of least problems and why should Devs implement a official market that would cost them unnecessary time for the benefit of few players while there is still important work to do for majority of the players in bringing new features.
Hopefully the upcoming change on research will reduce the worth of a full researched prototype in a degree, that limits the benefit of account sharing on prototyper.

Re: A better Picture

Goffer wrote:

Nevertheless I understand the point of DEVs. It's the point of least problems and why should Devs implement a official market that would cost them unnecessary time for the benefit of few players while there is still important work to do for majority of the players in bringing new features.
Hopefully the upcoming change on research will reduce the worth of a full researched prototype in a degree, that limits the benefit of account sharing on prototyper.

Why should they? Because to put it bluntly, if Merkle didn't ICE/sub those accounts they would lose money because the actual owners either don't want to play Perp or are too busy IRL to play. There's nothing wrong with gifting accounts, there's a LOT of things wrong with Zoom's attitude of "its forbidden but we won't punish it unless we decide to".

It's a grey area that typically means - based on player-dev history stuff in Perp - that Merkle will get his buttcheeks banhammered the second it becomes more practical to throw him under a bus to preserve existing subs threatening to ragequit.

Thats why it needs to be black & white and crystal clear, no ambiguous grey areas based on who's on his period on that day.

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: A better Picture

[*][/*]

Annihilator wrote:

The DEVs have no loss through account trading/gifting - since it doesn't matter if someone pays for a fresh new account, or continues to pay an old account.

account sharing at the other hand, is a loss because a shared account replaces alt-account of several players at the same time. each of them would need to pay extra money to the DEVs to do the same thing as they do with the shared one.
to more player share same account - the more loss for the DEVs.

the whole thing is, that account trading makes your agent name meaningless. TBH, DEVs should make account trading LEGAL, but only if they drop some anonymity that comes with the current game mechanics, and punish any violations against the trading rules without exception:

1. a traded account will change email permanently. since it was traded through official channels, the previous owner should have no easy option to get back access to the account via support

2. force agent rename upon account trade - but keep a public visible history in agent profile of former names

3. previous names or emails cannot be used ever again on that account

4. auto-revoke all ingame standings and corp access levels of the agents on traded accounts

5. ban every accoun't that was traded without using the official method.

+1 and charge a fee like $30 to $50.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: A better Picture

EVE does it better. Just saying.

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: A better Picture

Charge $1 per 10,000 EP

38 (edited by Lemon 2013-02-05 22:30:28)

Re: A better Picture

*waits for incoming cash shop

edit-*rant*Cassius i would pay to play if i was playing knowing i was abiding by the same rules everyone else was to the same extent and anyone violating was being punished properly. On top of that i need more population, there is no one to fight even if went all red i wouldnt have a fight be it game design or population.

I wonder if subbed all my accounts (9) and started spamming racial slurs in chat, is 80$ enough to keep me safe.

I wonder if 50 people in a corp spammed racial slurs, is  449.5 enough to keep me safe

I wonder how *** it is for that guy who sees these *** running free and insulting him daily.

^not a game i am going to play.

Dont do what necessary to keep the game alive do what is necessary to create a great game so it may live.

TL:DR If you cant afford to enforce one section of the EULA, how is any section enforced?

*grabs popcorn* i mean if this gifted account thing is made legal i know plenty of cookie cutter accounts waiting to be gifted to create a fun Isboxer fleet to keep me entertained, but i do miss playing my 1 account and going toe-to-toe with anything that came at me with the occasional support tackle follow bot. My 3+ Synched mesmers/seths is more point-click-win and boring.

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

39 (edited by Gremrod 2013-02-05 23:54:42)

Re: A better Picture

Very simple solution.

It is forbidden to share account details with anyone, trade or sell Perpetuum accounts, in-game items, characters, money, etc in any way outside the game. In this case both the seller's and the buyer's characters and accounts may be terminated by AC.

to this:

It is forbidden to sell Perpetuum accounts, in-game items, characters, money, etc in any way outside the game. In this case both the seller's and the buyer's characters and accounts may be terminated by AC.

Simple Black and White change. No reason now to ban anyone for sharing accounts or using an account that was gifted to them.

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

40 (edited by Canthra Monero 2013-02-06 02:14:13)

Re: A better Picture

i missed the part where anyone having access to accounts makes them better at the game or somehow gives them an advantage... it seems like this is an attempt to waste time which it is getting through with flying colors. woopdie doo a new player gets an account with 1 mil ep yay its a new player with 1 mil ep that sucks, beyond that one person can only run so many accounts at one time, and as we all know when you run too many u die. I can fire up 5 accounts as an example and run at 2 guys, if these people are the least bit competent in pvp they will kill every one.

41 (edited by Syndic 2013-02-06 11:12:49)

Re: A better Picture

*edit: Please don't discuss moderation. - DEV Zoom
*edit: It's ok, it's more important you saw it and that we both KNOW why there is a grey area now. - Syndic

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: A better Picture

Canthra Monero wrote:

i missed the part where anyone having access to accounts makes them better at the game or somehow gives them an advantage... it seems like this is an attempt to waste time which it is getting through with flying colors. woopdie doo a new player gets an account with 1 mil ep yay its a new player with 1 mil ep that sucks, beyond that one person can only run so many accounts at one time, and as we all know when you run too many u die. I can fire up 5 accounts as an example and run at 2 guys, if these people are the least bit competent in pvp they will kill every one.

So your saying by your logic someone with a 200K EP account is just as good as a 1.2 Million EP account doing the same thing?

Or how about having access to 1.2 Million EP mining accounts?

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

43 (edited by Burial 2013-02-06 16:47:20)

Re: A better Picture

Arga wrote:

Charge $1 per 10,000 EP

Yes, some sort of "gifting" system would actually be good.. or character selling similar to EVE.

Re: A better Picture

Burial wrote:
Arga wrote:

Charge $1 per 10,000 EP

Yes, some sort of "gifting" system would actually be good.. or character selling similar to EVE.

Just to be clear, I was talking about charging $1 for each 10k that a character resets, not buying EP which is sort of what it looks like standing alone.

This would be a micro-store transaction, you select which skills you want to unlearn, and you get charged $1 for each 10k EP. This is new player friendly, since even resetting complexity 9 skill with 5 points or less would only be $1, but a complexity 9, lvl 10 skill could cost $13 (EP is rounded up).

If you're worried about too much FOTM, put a token on each skill when it's reset. Each token multiples the reset cost by 2x, for every 2 months your account is subscribed you can remove 1 token.

I would also be infavor of this without the cost, but the cost would be a better decentive.

Re: A better Picture

Arga wrote:

I would also be infavor of this without the cost, but the cost would be a better decentive.

Arga, you know only M2S gets their EP reset, not us plebs.

Re: A better Picture

Tund Bungler wrote:
Arga wrote:

I would also be infavor of this without the cost, but the cost would be a better decentive.

Arga, you know only M2S gets their EP reset, not us plebs.



Can confirm it's true.

RIP PERPETUUM