Topic: [The Gamma proposal] New tier modules and bots (and research)

Modules
i think breaking up the production line from T1 to T4 is a good one.

to group only 2 tiers together sounds good to me.

but the think with lowering fitting costs for the plus variant sounds to me like you want to nerf down the existing t3 with less requirements so that the new t5/t6 will be around the stants of the t4 we have right now. that i think is no good idea.

the other question is how costly and how good the new colixum based equipent should be. will this be a replacement for the current T4 or should this be some faction stuff that is relay a bit over the top. mostly ment for pve on alpha players as a long term goal?


Bots
same problem goes here. where should they be placed in costs and power...

in general i see the dilema that most ppl (devs included) would like to see new bots and new models. but is also see that doing that new will require a lot of time. time in that could be made a lot of other important changes. so i agree that this is not the perfect solution. but the best solution we can get that this point.

the other thing is where to put these bots in the production.
making a mk3 variant out of it with mk3 cts found form artifacts is one way. needing a mk2 as component might be a bad idea. on the otherhand mk2s will lose in worth when the mk3 dont also need cpu cortexes and such...
one other way will be to give them some part in the research, but im not sure if this is a good idea cause this also will not work very well with the limitations of the mk2s.


Research
this sould be in a seperate topic but im packing it in here because it is a problem with the current item and bot changes.

the current research system is not good when you want to add new modules and stuff. with the random research gain from kernels its a pain when you implement new stuff. just like you did with the reactor sealings a.s.o.
ppl that have been done with the research before that have now go through the hole thing again for a very small gain. this is basicly a very bad mechanic. thats why i propose this:

scrap the current system.

kernels give research points. there are a large number of different research points. of cource the standart tiers 1-5 in all races and some special like heavy glider.

when useing kenerls you just bank these points in your reasearch pannel. when you want to research something you can put these points into a projekt of your choice.

  • the good thing is this is easy expandable. if you bring new equipment that also should require the old kenerls then its the same effort for a old vet to get that as someone who starts fresh.

  • you can always add new types of research points with new kernels or just add new kernels with a different number of reserach points.

  • you can add kernels with different types of research points.

  • you can give research multible types research points as requirement (what might make sense if you look at the components of a few items).

  • players can choose what they want to research instead of all random

  • and most important: you can easily switch from the old system to this one. without any problems in convetring the research ppl have atm.

i could keeping explaining why this would be way better, but i hope you see where i am going. this wouldbe a big plus and make the reasearch system itself ready for more expansions in the future.

Re: [The Gamma proposal] New tier modules and bots (and research)

since the topic already exists (twice)

i bump one with the questions to the devs:

Mid-term changes (~1 month)
Issue: Not enough rewards on gamma / Give more meaning to colixum.

  • Completely new tier of modules using colixum.

  • New robot variants using current chassis, with colixum-based components. (Manufacturing still possible anywhere for both.)

i guess we can forget about the timeframe, since that was written 6 weeks ago, BUT

could you please care to share your detailed concept about those two ideas?

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: [The Gamma proposal] New tier modules and bots (and research)

The issue I see with the points system, (this one and ones previously mentioned) is that currently there are to many items that are cross faction. Many items in the game for example armor plates can be researched through many different paths of research. What will you do for these?

I Use armor plates as an example **

If I have only 4 point pools Green, Red, Blue and Brown where do armor plates go?
If armor plants can get gained through any point pool then how will it balance when killing T4 indy mech is much easier than killing T4 (color) Mech?

In the system you describe will, I think throw the current balance way off. Why?
•    Because those who are not finished with their tech will only focus on the items they choose over learning everything at what could be describe an even pace. Why is this not good? Because like we saw with the current release of the EW tuners, people who had finished all of the old tech were able to get the new tech pretty quick but those who were still not close did not get t4 right away. The new tech just mixed in with the old tech.
•    When the next wave of new modules comes out if there was a point system in place it would encourage everyone to hoard point to just be the first to produce the new T4/5/6 modules. When new modules come into the game I personally feel it should be some time before they are on every PVP Mech in the t4 or higher variant. With the point system you can have the newest t4 the same day as the patch rolls out.   
I agree there needs to be a better way to do research but the point systems provided thus far are still falling short.

I think a more balanced system looks like this:
As you research Kernels you can choose the area of tech to gain, Example : I research 100 Green (any size) kernels I can choose from:
Mechs
Ammo
Weapons
Ewar
Electronics
Engineering
Nexus
etc . . .
The research from that 100 kernels goes into the “area of research” that I want it to. So people can tailor their researchers into specific areas of research.

If I have completed the EWar area of research then when the new modules comes out I would be able to continue in that area towards the new items.

What this prevents compared to a pure point system is, someone who is specializing in let’s say green weapon tech to complete a new ECM tuner right away by  buying X~number of blue kernels.  . Instead he will have to do the required research in the Blue EWar research area before being able to prototype the new modules.

Whatever the new system is it needs to be balanced in a way that acknowledges all the work that has been done thus far and requires substantial work going forward. I would have a huge problem with new players in the research profession being able to with pin point accuracy research one module to T4 without having to learn other items that are in the same tech area as the one he desires.

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

4 (edited by Celebro 2012-08-23 23:42:11)

Re: [The Gamma proposal] New tier modules and bots (and research)

Specializing research, removes the grind to an extent where it would require to nerf kernals again, then we are all back to square one on the grinding terms.

I would suggest 2 different kernel trees or systems.

1. Same old system remains untouched

2. Specialized kernal research using research points considerably faster, but instead of producing good old prototypes, it creates a limited prototype item, thus when reverse engineered  producers a very limited run or low point CT, with extra material cost requirement.

RIP PERPETUUM

5 (edited by Gremrod 2012-08-24 00:03:01)

Re: [The Gamma proposal] New tier modules and bots (and research)

Celebro wrote:

Specializing research, removes the grind to an extent where it would require to nerf kernals again, then we are all back to square one on the grinding terms.

I see no reason why kernels would need to be nerfed *again* because of a research point system.

The player still needs to have the kernels just like you do now. The only change would be the player can now choose an area to focus what the kernel unlocks. You would still need to unlock the t1 item before the t2 and so on.

This is one of the areas of the game I feel that is missing player choice.

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

Re: [The Gamma proposal] New tier modules and bots (and research)

i dont need much research

med hcl laser
laser tuning
sensor amp
range extender
uni-hardener
seismic hardener
recharger
laser heavy mech

perhaps med repair and all ERP... then im finished with research.

the whole small stuff, industrial and useless modules (aka cargo scanner!) can be skipped.

and dont forget the fail-dice rolls or those for items you already got finished, with focused research you wont have those...

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: [The Gamma proposal] New tier modules and bots (and research)

Well i thought about this whole thing as well and i came up with an idea that could work, however i than scrapped it since i thought it would be too difficult to balance properly and also too complicated. Despite that i will share it with you...who knows maybe something good will come of it.

The basic Idea is also that you get points for kernels, however not just one big pool, but 9 (1 Structure, 4 Small[indu,blue,yellow;green] and 4 medium).

You would then have a research tree with tiers. The higher the tier, the more points you have to invest to unlock the technology. This way, unlocking essential items like mining modules would take far less work than unlocking items that benefit groups like nexus modules or remote equipment. Furthermore any item could have various prerequisites to be unlocked.

Every technology is also tied to one of 4 groups (small, medium, structure or independent) and 6 subgroups (mentioned before blue yellow green indu structure and universal).

To unlock a technology you have to use your points. The group of the technology and the group of the points have to match(except for independent, they will have different prices for every group) so you can only unlock structure technologies with structure points etc. The subgroups work a bit different: If you want to unlock a "blue" technology but you have only "green" points, you can do so, but you will have to invest twice(or any other value) the number of points. Universal technologies can be unlocked with any subgroup(except for structure, they are separate).

Examples:

1.) LWF: Independant, Universal: Can be unlocked with any points except structure, has different prices for small and medium groups.

2.) Medium EM-Gun: Medium, Blue: Can be unlocked with medium blue points or medium yellow/green/indu points for a higher price.

3.) Medium armor plate: medium, universal: can be unlocked with any medium points.

If such a system is introduced existing knowledge bases could be "refunded" with the new prices in mind. This way also partly unlocked items would be converted into points. You would be able to instantly unlock everything you had unlocked before and possibly a bit more.

The system could also be extended with diminishing returns so that unlocking a technology from a tier makes all other technologies of this tier more expensive. The total costs to unlock everything would always be the same but the way getting there would be dictated by the current needs.

Another good point of such a system would be that it does still encourage trade of kernels while it also allows "single-players" to work towards unlocking just stuff that it is important for them.

So far my brainfart on that matter...

8 (edited by Celebro 2012-08-24 14:35:07)

Re: [The Gamma proposal] New tier modules and bots (and research)

Gremrod wrote:
Celebro wrote:

Specializing research, removes the grind to an extent where it would require to nerf kernals again, then we are all back to square one on the grinding terms.

I see no reason why kernels would need to be nerfed *again* because of a research point system.

The player still needs to have the kernels just like you do now. The only change would be the player can now choose an area to focus what the kernel unlocks. You would still need to unlock the t1 item before the t2 and so on.

This is one of the areas of the game I feel that is missing player choice.

Then what's the point of a specializing request?

If you could cherry pick your t4 module research you are just avoiding the chassis and cargo scanners etc. You just get what you want at a faster research rate which means less kernels needed. Lets say I  just want t4 lwf and medium launchers, if I specialize I would get it much sooner than with the present mechanics don't you agree?

RIP PERPETUUM

9 (edited by Gremrod 2012-08-24 15:17:40)

Re: [The Gamma proposal] New tier modules and bots (and research)

Celebro wrote:
Gremrod wrote:
Celebro wrote:

Specializing research, removes the grind to an extent where it would require to nerf kernals again, then we are all back to square one on the grinding terms.

I see no reason why kernels would need to be nerfed *again* because of a research point system.

The player still needs to have the kernels just like you do now. The only change would be the player can now choose an area to focus what the kernel unlocks. You would still need to unlock the t1 item before the t2 and so on.

This is one of the areas of the game I feel that is missing player choice.

Then what's the point of a specializing request?

If you could cherry pick your t4 module research you are just avoiding the chassis and cargo scanners etc. You just get what you want at a faster research rate which means less kernels needed. Lets say I  just want t4 lwf and medium launchers, if I specialize I would get it much sooner than with the present mechanics don't you agree?

Yes, I agree you will get that specific item (t1,2,3,4) much sooner.

Cherry picking is the very reason for a research point system. It is player choice that lets you specialize.

Both prototypers had to get the same amount of kernels to unlock t4 lwf. (Well not entirely true if one prototyper has the research extension and the other doesn't)

You have to agree you can't compete with those prototypers' that spend more time getting more research. In this case the only market you can compete in is the lwf market.

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23