51 Reply by Atticus (edited by Atticus 2011-12-21 16:16:19)

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Re: To the DEV's: What is Perpetuum future?

@ Obi ....
If I see a chance to get the odd sarcastic or funny jab at an ingame enemy on the forums I will take it. Other than that, I don't troll, I can't be bothered, nor do I enjoy it.

That said, I don't think I misunderstand anything. I offered my opinion. But the math is sound and simple. A $10 PLEX (or the much more enjoyable sounding SSEX) means one less $10 subscription renewed. The direct net effect on AC's financial bottom line is $0 extra revenue.

Now since my post others have pointed out reasons why the SSEX is actually a good idea. The redistribution of NiC to the newbs from the vets, people who cannot for some reason renew but can afford the NiC cost of a SSEX are a couple of good examples.

I am trying to look at SSEX in the long term, and the effect it would have given the current game conditions. As pointed out the low server population and the lack of new players would in the immediate not do anything to bring in additional revenue for AC. Which is what they need (my assumption)

Please if you wish show me with math where I am wrong as far as increasing revenue.

For the record, here's my math, using fictional characters;

Current scenario:

Agro, Wealthy Industrial Nerd and CEO of CAKE buys 12 t4 Visionary Cargo Scanners for a total cost of 120 mil NiC because they are clearly the most uber mod in the game. So satisfied with this he then renews his sub for a year at a cost of $120.

AC makes $120


SSEX scenario:

Vile, newb player just starting in WARTE corp, buys 12 $10 SSEX which he then sells to Argo at 10 mill NiC apiece. He then buys the 12 t4 Visionary Cargo Scanners because they, like Vile, are the most uber in game. But he lacks the nessecary extensions for the next month to fit them on his Arkhe Mk2. Argo uses the 12 SSEX to renew his subscription for the next 12 months because he's so satsified and can't believe some noob just bought his crappy 12 t4 Visionary Cargo Scanners.

AC makes $120

Net Difference: $0

Please show me where I am not understanding the math.

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Re: To the DEV's: What is Perpetuum future?

Just to write my 2 cents as a newly ( about a week) subscribed player:

I NEVER even heard about Perpetuum. I didn't even know it existed.

Just by chance some EVE-blogger mentioned it in one of his posts, which made me curious and i started googling it. Found this HP, read about how EVE-ish this game is, sand-box and all. With decent graphics.  And it has robots. Laser-shooting, rocket-spitting walking freakin' robots! How can you NOT like this?

My first thought? "Why the hell does noone know about this game?"

It occured to me instantly: I never saw even one tiny ad about it. And I usually pay attention to game ads, because I'm always curious about new games.

I logged in first time and was welcomed by a community, which couldn't be weirder... the vets were actually nice and helpful to new players, while talking smack to each other and creating drama. I like.
I quickly found people who were willing to tutor me, guide me through this game and eventually let me join them ( some of you may know them, a corp called MORTE...).

This community, plus a time-based skill system, that doesn't force me to actually plan log-ins (thats the one thing about EVE i hated: having to log-in just to keep my training queue running...) and a high-sec system, which is actually safe were the reasons for me to stay for a while now.

53 Reply by Scyylla (edited by Scyylla 2011-12-21 16:52:13)

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Re: To the DEV's: What is Perpetuum future?

Atticus

IMHO this is where some of the others are coming from on Plex:

These can be used to keep players in the game that:

Do not have a credit card to pay
Cannot afford to pay $10 a month
Allow those rampant 12 year old WOW kiddies to play without having to use Mommy's visa.

Ultimately these types of players represent a tiny minority of the sandbox gaming community. Also, 99.9% of the people in the above categories won't look at a game they have to pay a subscription for to begin with. They stick to a F2P model game.

Introducing a Plex system in and of itself doesn't grow your player base (unless you factor in the RMT'ers). All it does is shift the money on an accounting line from recurring revenue to one time revenue.

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Re: To the DEV's: What is Perpetuum future?

yarr

Scyylla wrote:

Atticus

IMHO this is where some of the others are coming from on Plex:

These can be used to keep players in the game that:

Do not have a credit card to pay
Cannot afford to pay $10 a month
Allow those rampant 12 year old WOW kiddies to play without having to use Mommy's visa.

Ultimately these types of players represent a tiny minority of the sandbox gaming community. Also, 99.9% of the people in the above categories won't look at a game they have to pay a subscription for to begin with. They stick to a F2P model game.

Introducing a Plex system in and of itself doesn't grow your player base (unless you factor in the RMT'ers). All it does is shift the money on an accounting line from recurring revenue to one time revenue.


Well if I somehow hadn't expressed this view I totally agree with you 100%.  Now if you can excuse me I somehow have to find and kill your masked E-War corpys who ambushed and killed my innocent industrial nerd corp bro who was out for an artifacting  stroll last night ...:yarr:

Awesome job on that kill btw RG, love those tactics.

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Re: To the DEV's: What is Perpetuum future?

Atticus wrote:

yarr

Scyylla wrote:

Atticus

IMHO this is where some of the others are coming from on Plex:

These can be used to keep players in the game that:

Do not have a credit card to pay
Cannot afford to pay $10 a month
Allow those rampant 12 year old WOW kiddies to play without having to use Mommy's visa.

Ultimately these types of players represent a tiny minority of the sandbox gaming community. Also, 99.9% of the people in the above categories won't look at a game they have to pay a subscription for to begin with. They stick to a F2P model game.

Introducing a Plex system in and of itself doesn't grow your player base (unless you factor in the RMT'ers). All it does is shift the money on an accounting line from recurring revenue to one time revenue.


Well if I somehow hadn't expressed this view I totally agree with you 100%.  Now if you can excuse me I somehow have to find and kill your masked E-War corpys who ambushed and killed my innocent industrial nerd corp bro who was out for an artifacting  stroll last night ...:yarr:

Awesome job on that kill btw RG, love those tactics.

I look forward to the attempt! May good fights be had by all!

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Re: To the DEV's: What is Perpetuum future?

CLIVE SINCLAIR wrote:
Kleus wrote:

It's nigh impossible to recover from the hand that AC is looking at right now, imo.  Doesn't matter if the accusations are true; players are talking about the cheaters that supposedly got away scot-free with breaking the EULA.  Pile that on top of AC's small team putting out content very slowly and we have the results you see today.  60-85 in general chat and maybe 150 logged in at most.

For crying out loud, I play UO servers that cost me nothing and have more content/sandbox tools than perp does.  Not to mention less (alleged) cheater favoritism.  The future?  Either a hail mary patch or a plug pulling.

All the player talk in general chat and these forums, about cheating, and the game failing.
Is very off putting for new players.  Why bother subbing if the games going down hill?.
A lot of the games problems are player created.
The devs are trying to give you what you want, not what you need.

Another reason why all lumped into a single chat channel is bad. But that is another topic.....

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Re: To the DEV's: What is Perpetuum future?

Mongolia Jones wrote:
Scyylla wrote:

The main solution would be to advertise the game more to drive subscriptions up.

Advertise, advertise, advertise...

I run a business.  You can have the best product in the world, but if you don't advertise you wont sell any product.

+1 This has to happen

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Re: To the DEV's: What is Perpetuum future?

@Att

Nothing wrong with your maths; but it does mean that Worst Case, AC breaks even if they implement it.

For all the players in All-4-One corps, NIC doesn't mean much to them. They work for the good of the corp, and they recieve bots and modules in exchange. Nothing wrong with that model.

However, players in smaller corps or playing solo, NIC means everything for them. NIC per hour dictates how many robots they can lose and how well equipped they can be. The average solo player has to put in 10 or more hours for everybot they blow up, as they gain EP, that time doesn't change, it just means they can get bigger and better gear for thier time.

Some players can and will grind 4 hours a day, and blow up a bot every 3 days (give or take). Many others can only play a few hours a night, taking all week to earn enough NIC or raw mats to refit. Meaning they get to PVP 4-7 times a month for thier $9. Even just 1 SSEX would give them an many more refits.

The advantage is even better for Indy players, where getting a one-time capital infusion can allow a manufactoring player to build a run of Rivlers that they would otherwise be unable to afford the mats for. Or the marketeer, getting a starting bank roll. SSEX will most certainly improve the market by giving players more NIC to spend and manf. more NIC to build with.

Vetern players won't have to worry, because getting research is still required to build high tiered items, and at this time there isn't enough SSEX buyers for someone to get enough NIC to buy T4 research (Ask Purgatory how much he spent for those last few % points...).

There are pitfalls, yes. But SSEX is a positive feature, and by all means HOW it's implemented should be carefully studied.

tl;dr - Commie corps don't gain much with SSEX, solo and new players would benefit, as well as the game in general by moving NIC out of wallets.

59 Reply by Obi Wan Kenobi (edited by Obi Wan Kenobi 2011-12-21 22:54:42)

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Re: To the DEV's: What is Perpetuum future?

Atticus wrote:

@ Obi ....
Current scenario:

Agro, Wealthy Industrial Nerd and CEO of CAKE buys 12 t4 Visionary Cargo Scanners for a total cost of 120 mil NiC because they are clearly the most uber mod in the game. So satisfied with this he then renews his sub for a year at a cost of $120.

AC makes $120


SSEX scenario:

Vile, newb player just starting in WARTE corp, buys 12 $10 SSEX which he then sells to Argo at 10 mill NiC apiece. He then buys the 12 t4 Visionary Cargo Scanners because they, like Vile, are the most uber in game. But he lacks the nessecary extensions for the next month to fit them on his Arkhe Mk2. Argo uses the 12 SSEX to renew his subscription for the next 12 months because he's so satsified and can't believe some noob just bought his crappy 12 t4 Visionary Cargo Scanners.

AC makes $120

Net Difference: $0

Please show me where I am not understanding the math.

well actualy you are assuming people only pay for the game on a month by month basis atm. & if we all do that then yes a SSEX system would net AC $0 additional profits. But this is worst case. since im sure alot would pay for longer periods of time. thus an SSEX is being bought at a higher cost so 12 SSEX = $120 a 1 year sub is $94.95.

example 1:
player A pays for a year sub. 94.95
players B pays for a year sub 94.95
total: $ 189.90

example 2:
Player A subs for a yea 94.95 But want more cash for uber new Hmech. buys 12 SSEX @ say $120.
Player B is fat & lazy & possible spends to much time playing games tongue but also is very nic rich & buys 12 SSEX (worth $120) to pay for his account.
total income for AC = 214.95 a profit of $25.05 over both players SUBing

ofcrs the example i use is bast case but i think thats clear enough smile

this is the POV im coming from. SSEX trading makes more money for the company. it doesnt matter if it take the buyer of a SSE 500 years to sell his SSEX either since from ACs stand point they have made their cash.

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue
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Re: To the DEV's: What is Perpetuum future?

Arga wrote:

@Att

Nothing wrong with your maths; but it does mean that Worst Case, AC breaks even if they implement it.

For all the players in All-4-One corps, NIC doesn't mean much to them. They work for the good of the corp, and they recieve bots and modules in exchange. Nothing wrong with that model.

However, players in smaller corps or playing solo, NIC means everything for them. NIC per hour dictates how many robots they can lose and how well equipped they can be. The average solo player has to put in 10 or more hours for everybot they blow up, as they gain EP, that time doesn't change, it just means they can get bigger and better gear for thier time.

Some players can and will grind 4 hours a day, and blow up a bot every 3 days (give or take). Many others can only play a few hours a night, taking all week to earn enough NIC or raw mats to refit. Meaning they get to PVP 4-7 times a month for thier $9. Even just 1 SSEX would give them an many more refits.

The advantage is even better for Indy players, where getting a one-time capital infusion can allow a manufactoring player to build a run of Rivlers that they would otherwise be unable to afford the mats for. Or the marketeer, getting a starting bank roll. SSEX will most certainly improve the market by giving players more NIC to spend and manf. more NIC to build with.

Vetern players won't have to worry, because getting research is still required to build high tiered items, and at this time there isn't enough SSEX buyers for someone to get enough NIC to buy T4 research (Ask Purgatory how much he spent for those last few % points...).

There are pitfalls, yes. But SSEX is a positive feature, and by all means HOW it's implemented should be carefully studied.

tl;dr - Commie corps don't gain much with SSEX, solo and new players would benefit, as well as the game in general by moving NIC out of wallets.

Special thanks to Arga for pointing out how Plex is P2W:

Visa buys time code. Time code buys NIC.

Take the laundering of $$$ by buying a time code out of the equation and you get:
Visa buys NIC.......

The whole Plex system was brought about to stop the RMT sites in Eve by creating a company sanctioned RMT program.... Open your eyes Arga.....

Plex systems are a form of P2W. A month old player could make a billion NIC by selling time codes. Use that NIC to buy nice shiney bots and gear to push the 3 month old player off the spawns he wants to farm......
By purchasing NIC the month old toon is gaining an advantage because he has a higher limit on his Visa....

Before you say that people with multiple accounts have an advantage let me shoot you down. A player with multiple accounts still has to log in keyboard time to farm,grind missions or mine.

This is not meant as a personal attack Arga but you are truley blinded to the reality of what a Plex type program is actually for and what it has the potential to create. I was like that too, until all the pieces of the puzzle slid into place one day. I feel you have the best interest of the game in mind but a Plex system isn't it.....

Now perhaps we should get back to the topic this thread was about:

What is the future of perpetuum?

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61 Reply by Gremrod (edited by Gremrod 2011-12-22 01:20:51)

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Re: To the DEV's: What is Perpetuum future?

Scyylla wrote:

Now perhaps we should get back to the topic this thread was about:

What is the future of perpetuum?

No SSEX in the future of Perpetuum.

But no really... I hope to see the artillery, destroyer mechs, player constructed outposts, terra-forming.

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Re: To the DEV's: What is Perpetuum future?

Personally i would like to see the developers add more dimensions to the pve &pvp combat/mining&production and possibly economics/diplomacy aspects of the game.

Adding various theme-park-y additions and calling it content is a never ending void that must be filled since those activites lose their luster quickly. 

Adding more dimensions to what we are already doing is how you add to sandboxes.  I would like to see more reasons to do what we do in game, other than aquiring NIC and padding e-peen.  I think that is the biggest drawback in the game, im either feeding my NIC desires or im aiming to wreak havoc in pvp.  It seems those are the two ends to the means in the game.  Develop this aspect, providing more "sand" for the existing sandbox is what people typically ask for in sandboxes as far as development.  Only problem is, doing so requires unique thinking and its why the route of adding themepark type activites and polishing existing systems is the only route taken when developing sandboxes.

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Re: To the DEV's: What is Perpetuum future?

Arga wrote:

Special thanks to Arga for pointing out how Plex is P2W:

Visa buys time code. Time code buys NIC.

Take the laundering of $$$ by buying a time code out of the equation and you get:
Visa buys NIC.......

The whole Plex system was brought about to stop the RMT sites in Eve by creating a company sanctioned RMT program.... Open your eyes Arga.....

Plex systems are a form of P2W. A month old player could make a billion NIC by selling time codes. Use that NIC to buy nice shiney bots and gear to push the 3 month old player off the spawns he wants to farm......
By purchasing NIC the month old toon is gaining an advantage because he has a higher limit on his Visa....

Before you say that people with multiple accounts have an advantage let me shoot you down. A player with multiple accounts still has to log in keyboard time to farm,grind missions or mine.

This is not meant as a personal attack Arga but you are truley blinded to the reality of what a Plex type program is actually for and what it has the potential to create. I was like that too, until all the pieces of the puzzle slid into place one day. I feel you have the best interest of the game in mind but a Plex system isn't it.....

Sorry, but I still don't see your p2w point. Only thing that a plex-system gets a player is money.

It doesn't get him skill, it doesn't get him experience. So a 3-month old toon with billions of NIC in his wallet is as likely to be blown to hell and back as a 3-month old toon with nothing but his tutorial bot. It may not hurt him much, sure, but he didn't win because he paid more.  Also with so much capital, he probably won't even care to get better at pvp, if he will even leave alpha at all.

I played EVE for around one and a half years now and I can tell you, the people who are really good at pvp are seldom people who buy PLEX to get money. They "work" for their ISK like most other players and therefore have an incentive to try and NOT lose their ships. Rich players usually don't care.

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Re: To the DEV's: What is Perpetuum future?

Gremrod wrote:
Mongolia Jones wrote:
Scyylla wrote:

The main solution would be to advertise the game more to drive subscriptions up.

Advertise, advertise, advertise...

I run a business.  You can have the best product in the world, but if you don't advertise you wont sell any product.

+1 This has to happen

+1 from me also

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Re: To the DEV's: What is Perpetuum future?

Once the game gets POS/SM 3.0 would nice to see a sort of advertising "relaunch"

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.
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Re: To the DEV's: What is Perpetuum future?

a relaunch, with a bit of lore background, like the total destruction of the current island by niani forces... and all players moved with their assets to a single continent big_smile

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Re: To the DEV's: What is Perpetuum future?

Stranger Danger wrote:

Personally i would like to see the developers add more dimensions to the pve &pvp combat/mining&production and possibly economics/diplomacy aspects of the game.

Adding various theme-park-y additions and calling it content is a never ending void that must be filled since those activites lose their luster quickly. 

Adding more dimensions to what we are already doing is how you add to sandboxes.  I would like to see more reasons to do what we do in game, other than aquiring NIC and padding e-peen.  I think that is the biggest drawback in the game, im either feeding my NIC desires or im aiming to wreak havoc in pvp.  It seems those are the two ends to the means in the game.  Develop this aspect, providing more "sand" for the existing sandbox is what people typically ask for in sandboxes as far as development.  Only problem is, doing so requires unique thinking and its why the route of adding themepark type activites and polishing existing systems is the only route taken when developing sandboxes.

What he/she said; a game needs to be engaging.  When you make a sandbox game you are essentially writing a story with no control over its characters actions.  That being the case their environment MUST direct their actions in a manner that is conducive to the continuation of the story.  When you add the concept of absolute freedom from ethical accountability you end up needing possible environmental engagement that will suit every personality from Genghis Khan to Gandhi.

In the case of Perpetuum the content is already there; it just needs to be moulded a little to produce the required desires.

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Re: To the DEV's: What is Perpetuum future?

Why don't they just advertise they are selling SSEX?

Would make me basically throw money at the ***** or I mean game.

I'm kinda ok with this idea...not toooo sure about it tho.

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Re: To the DEV's: What is Perpetuum future?

0110011100001111001010001 wrote:

Why don't they just advertise they are selling SSEX?

Would make me basically throw money at the ***** or I mean game.

I'm kinda ok with this idea...not toooo sure about it tho.

+1 for buying Sexx

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Re: To the DEV's: What is Perpetuum future?

+1 for MMORPG's oldest profession

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Re: To the DEV's: What is Perpetuum future?

Gremrod wrote:
Scyylla wrote:

Now perhaps we should get back to the topic this thread was about:

What is the future of perpetuum?

No SSEX in the future of Perpetuum.

But no really... I hope to see the artillery, destroyer mechs, player constructed outposts, terra-forming.

^^ is my dreams! smile

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

72 Reply by Coltaine (edited by Coltaine 2011-12-25 14:57:41)

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Re: To the DEV's: What is Perpetuum future?

Annihilator wrote:

a relaunch, with a bit of lore background, like the total destruction of the current island by niani forces... and all players moved with their assets to a single continent big_smile

Thats a tad extreme ! and of course it would have to be one big care bear island smile


@kim - More advertising is very important, agree

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Re: To the DEV's: What is Perpetuum future?

For the first time playing Perpetuum.

I'm actually shaky on how long this game will be around unless,
A. More players come into the game.
B. Better support for the game.
C. Better over all advertising for the game.
D. It all comes down to more people playing the game. Period.

I love this game, and I'm willing to throw my money at the screen for Perpetuum.  But
I can only hold out so long until I must move on, and get off a sinking ship.

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Re: To the DEV's: What is Perpetuum future?

0110011100001111001010001 wrote:

For the first time playing Perpetuum.

I'm actually shaky on how long this game will be around unless,
A. More players come into the game.
B. Better support for the game.
C. Better over all advertising for the game.
D. It all comes down to more people playing the game. Period.

I love this game, and I'm willing to throw my money at the screen for Perpetuum.  But
I can only hold out so long until I must move on, and get off a sinking ship.

Sadly I am feeling the same way. Something needs to change or there wont be anyone left in game soon.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.
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Re: To the DEV's: What is Perpetuum future?

I agree with binary. It's all a matter of how long they can keep developing with low player base. The lower the numbers though the less attractive it becomes, due to the nature of a sandbox.

There is a lot we dont know, specially how many accounts are farming EP, which funds development.

RIP PERPETUUM