Re: Logical conclusions.

hunters point of the topic was that evasive modules are unlogical, and fitting medium stuff on small bots does not increase your hitsize but your visual appearance. actualy THAT is something Alf could deal with, since the hitsize modifier attribute already exists for armorplates - which do not change your visual size at alll (logic?)

as far as i understand that initial post, the effect of evasive module on small bots is huge:
light ewar hitsize 2.75m vs. -1.15m evasive module = 42% reduction of size
heavy mech with 10.0m vs. -1.15m evsasive module = 11% reduction of size

how does this affect your survival chance?

mixed with a t4 shield, you benefit from two things - you get less hits, and youre taking less damage
mixed with a armor tank, you benefit only from the lower chance to get hit - doesnt help you if one hit kills you

but back to the math:

Effect of Evasive module on shield AP/HP absorption
(T4 equip: evasive and small/medium shield)
                without   / with evasvie
small ewar		3,78		6,5	= 72% improvement
small bot		3,46		5,62	= 62% improvement
assault			2,60		3,65	= 40% improvement

mech ewar		3,71		4,44	= 20% improvement
mech combat		3,25		3,80	= 17% improvement
heavy mech		2,60		2,94	= 13% improvement

Effect of Evasive module vs. neut or ballistic missile 
Damage received:
(or chance to be hit with 4°/10° hit dispersion weapons)

evasive		without		/ with		/ without	/ with
extension	lvl 10		/ lvl 0		/ lvl10		/ lvl10
(small weapons)				
small ewar		 69%		 40%		 98%		 57%
small bot		 75%		 46%		100%		 66%
assault			100%		 71%		100%		100%
(medium weapons)
small ewar		 27%		 16%		 40%		 23%
small bot		 30%		 18%		 43%		 26%
assault			 40%		 28%		 57%		 41%
(medium weapons)
mech ewar		 70%		 58%		100%		 84%
mech combat		 80%		 68%		100%		 98%
heavy mech		100%		 88%		100%		100%

now i have to sum up with resists and hitpoints...

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Logical conclusions.

Visual size is mostly graphics improvement that may be hard/long to code atm while deVs have more important things. Parameters will be more easily to rebalance.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: Logical conclusions.

this is what i chuld fit whit what i had at the time
and my skillz are not even that good in fitting


http://imageshack.us/f/6/perpetuum0061.png/

29 (edited by Hunter 2011-12-22 02:41:44)

Re: Logical conclusions.

Perhaps you have not fully understood.
The game does not need to implement a visual reduction of the signature.
Need to change the size-modifiers of the evasion modules and turret/missile equipment.
Evasive modules should reduce the percentage of reduction, not an absolute value.
Turret / missile units should increase the size of the robot like plates (Yes Annihilator i remember about it).

P.S.: And the signature of the robot should not decrease with activated shield. Even with evasive module.

The theory of mutual interests
Why the crybabies wins?
Где Ханя - там победа (с)
DEV Zoom: No need to speculate...

30 (edited by Annihilator 2011-12-22 02:51:05)

Re: Logical conclusions.

while i would agree that the visual (chassis) module should also have a signature size modificator, i dont want it without default-modules filling at least half of those slot even if i dont have anythng equipped. Its already *** that we have to run around with armless robots because of the mass mechanic...

Estamel Tharch0n wrote:

this is what i chuld fit whit what i had at the time
and my skillz are not even that good in fitting


http://imageshack.us/f/6/perpetuum0061.png/

whats your AP/HP ratio on shields ?

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Logical conclusions.

Annihilator wrote:

while i would agree that the visual (chassis) module should also have a signature size modificator, i dont want it without default-modules filling at least half of those slot even if i dont have anythng equipped. Its already *** that we have to run around with armless robots because of the mass mechanic...

Estamel Tharch0n wrote:

this is what i chuld fit whit what i had at the time
and my skillz are not even that good in fitting


http://imageshack.us/f/6/perpetuum0061.png/

whats your AP/HP ratio on shields ?


its 0.203 ap/hp but my shield skillz arent that high and the fit is not specalized i can prolly fit better hardeners if i had t2 neuts eccm and some morre fitting skillz

Re: Logical conclusions.

everything t2 is reducing your performance pretty much. not only the missiles got less range, longer cycletimes and the shield is only half as good as with t4 and the neut has a worse neuted vs. used AP ratio.

most likely the mass bonus of t2 equip is less then using only 2 or 3 t4 launcher.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Logical conclusions.

I was playing around with sheilds on my Termis mk ii last night, with sheild ext 6. With Med sheild and (2) T4 hardeners I was at .2xx

Is it better to fit acc expanders or R4 rechargers?

I dropped a similar setup on my camelon mk i with small sheild, and the ratio was .0xx something, the acc pool is much much smaller, and there was little cpu left for weapons. Granted I'm not maxed on my cpu/cpu reduction skills.

Re: Logical conclusions.

accu expander only extend your buffer by a few points (like adding armor plates).

recharger extend your tanking ability over time. IMHO small accu expander are semi-useless and medium ones are only a choice for bots (smaller then mech). Even on a tyrannos with the worst accumulator size, the recharger has much more impact while having less mass and lower fitting costs.

paired with injector or energy transfer, accu expander is even worse...

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Logical conclusions.

So, expanders actually make it worse by increasing recharge time?

Re: Logical conclusions.

nope, but the key to stability is to have your accumulator above 50%.

hypothetical:
use a 250AP charge on a bot with 500 AP and 30AP/s peak, or use it on one with 1000 AP and 30 AP/s peak when you got neuted down to zero and have to rely on a shield for defense.

the 500AP bot needs one charge to get instantly back to its peak, and is above 50% and any hit on his shield will push his accumulator back into its peak.

the 1000AP bot needs two charges to get back into its peak, and as long as its not there , any hit on his shield will push it down to worse recharge rate.

Tanking is about how much fire you can sustain for a longer period of time.

a med t4 accumulator expander will double your light bots/assaults accumulator, thus also doubling your AP/s rate (100% increase), while sustaining a reasonable small recharge time. (less then 3 minutes base)
on a mech or heavy mech the less then 20% increase of AP pool per accumulator mod will alternate your AP/s rate exactly by that with dimishing returns.

fitting a recharger on your mech with a big AP pool and 8 minute recharge time will have a far greater effect on your AP/s rate: reducing the time by 17,5% mean increasing the AP/s  by 1/0.825 = 21%, escalating returns if you can accumulate those effects (2 rechargers, or bot bonus)

since shields are tied to recharge rate and accumulator pool, you can get more HP/s with shields then you could get from repair since tuning nerf. Repair always needs a good junk of your AP pool to work, cycling at ~6s. Shields work with any amount of AP and accumulator recharge is cycling at 3ms...

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Logical conclusions.

That was not  just t2 fit that was a mix of ***  t4 shield t3 hardeners t2 neuts launchers t4 aux witch acualy i think gives better recharge at high bot/skill lvl then a accumulator recharger  the shield tank is bad caus of my skills in fitings and shield skillz 

i belive u can fit a tyrannos way better than i have

Re: Logical conclusions.

Estamel Tharch0n wrote:

... t4 aux witch acualy i think gives better recharge at high bot/skill lvl then a accumulator recharger  ...

not really - the difference is so small that you need to prefer 459 AP more accumulator over
-lower fitting costs,
-less mass and
-15s faster back to full power (check neut cycletime!)

accu exp 10,
energy management 10,

adv. robotics 10
pelistals robotics 10

tyrannos mk1

plain:
2600 AP / 84.0s = 30.95 AP/s average, 61.90 peak

1 t4 accu:
3159 AP / 84.0s = 37.61 AP/s average, 75.21 peak

1 t4 recharger:
2600 AP / 69.3s = 37.52 AP/s average, 75.04 peak

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Logical conclusions.

The main destination of accumulators - to increase the interval of maximum regeneration of the battery.

The theory of mutual interests
Why the crybabies wins?
Где Ханя - там победа (с)
DEV Zoom: No need to speculate...

40 (edited by Line 2011-12-23 14:38:57)

Re: Logical conclusions.

Aux Extenders increase your max amount of energy leaving recharge time untouched. As a result, you're get more AP per second.

/fixed

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: Logical conclusions.

Line wrote:

Aux Extenders increase your max amount of energy leaving recharge speed untouched. As a result, you're get more AP per second.

please use the right words or your sentence makes no sense... speed is defined as "distance per time", in your case accumulator per time...



that aside, i can write down what happens on a termis or any other mech/HM  when you add either a recharger or an accumulator.

Termis: (maxed extension, no spark)
0x accu 3250 / 210 = 15.5 (31.0)AP/s

1x accu 3809 / 210 = 18.1 (36.3)AP/s
2x accu 4368 / 210 = 20.8 (41.6)AP/s
3x accu 4927 / 210 = 23.5 (46.9)AP/s

1x charge 3250 /   173 = 18.8 (37.5)AP/s
2x charge 3250 /   143 = 22.7 (45.5)AP/s
3x charge 3250 /   118 = 27.6 (55.1)AP/s

remember the effect of drainer, injector or energytransfer i wrote further up in this topic. the smaller the accumulator, the better those modules work.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Logical conclusions.

Whats the stategy behind injector charges?

I understand the point your making about getting above 50% with an injector, but wouldn't that be the case with larger acc pools if you applied the injector sooner, that is don't wait til it's at 0, apply the injection at the point where it will still bring you above 50%?

But, I could be wrong in how the injectors are used, is it more effective to wait until your acc is at or near 0?

Re: Logical conclusions.

check the size of injector charges and the cycletime of the injector.
If you can use them to keep your accu above 50% its good for you. IMHO that the usage for them if your driving an ictus or sniper seth, where no other module combination can provide you with the accumulator you need.

for a shield tank, the injector is your life-infusion. incomming DPS and incomming neuts will bring your accumulator below 50% really fast, especially if your neuting on your own. you really want to get back from nearly dead to fast reacharge. one medium neut kills as much accumulator as your injector can counter, at same cycletime. You would want to have your maximum recharge rate for another 10s until the next salvo comes in.

its a long time since i did pvp. back then injector charges had same size as regular ammo - i could permarun it four hours. now you got 50 injections 10U -> thats 8 Minutes wink

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Logical conclusions.

Annihilator wrote:

now you got 50 injections 10U -> thats 8 Minutes wink

that is still a realy long time in a fight.

Re: Logical conclusions.

A percent to evasive...I do like.

+1

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