Topic: Medium module cap usage vs small module cap usage

Medium guns/miners/harvesters require 5 times more cap then their small counterparts. I want to ask why there is such a huge gab?

= The damage of medium guns is about 2 times more then of their small counterparts. For miners/harvester it is only 67% better yeld.

= Mech do have like 6 times more cap capacity But the cap recharge is truly important and that is only 2,5 times better.

= When I am NPCing which requires to stay in battle longer it is accually better to use small guns. I do 1/2 damage but I got 5 times more cap to keep my defence running.

= I didn't find any skill that reduces cap consumption on Guns.

= Isn't there an inbalace with Missle launchers using virtually no cap?

Re: Medium module cap usage vs small module cap usage

JohnyGee wrote:

Medium guns/miners/harvesters require 5 times more cap then their small counterparts. I want to ask why there is such a huge gab?

= Isn't there an inbalace with Missle launchers using virtually no cap?

Not much experience yet with medium modules in combat but I'll tend to agree with the large increase in accumulator usage vs the increase in damage output as it appears on paper. Where the experience would come into play is in how things work out actually, and not on paper.

There are some important questions about using Mechs and bigger, though: How are you fitting out the mech? What are your relevant extensions at? The important rule of thumb I can probably bring in here is 'Just because you can use it doesn't mean you should.' There very well could be a general level of competence for piloting a mech over a light or assault bot expected as far as the level of extensions effecting core, processor, accumulator, and weapon systems. I just want to mention this before the 'overpowered/underpowered' issue is argued too much.

I'm not sure what you mean here on the imbalance with missile launchers. I'd say it's another subject that likely needs looking at.

Re: Medium module cap usage vs small module cap usage

I have to say that it does seem to be a bit out of balance with the power consumption of Med modules and as Fumen says quite a bit of balancing to be looked at. I find the Kain almost unusable atm as it needs so many extension boosts in reactor and energy managment just to be able to kill 1 NPC and not need to spend ages recharging.
killing 1 tyrannos on NV with a single armour rep cycle took just over 75% of the core

skills
Reactor expansion 6
Energy managment 5
Acumulator expansion 1

Mech fitting
Standard sensor booster
Standard magnetic tuning
4 x standard EM gun with chemoactive slugs
Vautrell medium armor rep
Azilo-Protec Duoforge Medium armor plate
Standars Accumulator recharger

I have not tried the heavy harvester / miners yet.....

Last edited by Kveldulfson (2009-11-30 15:57:30)

Re: Medium module cap usage vs small module cap usage

Medium miner modules certainly require WAY to much accumulator consumption. A heavy miner mech fitted with 5 med modules simply isn't going to be able to perma run them even with good extensions and accumulator upgrades, which it should be able to do.

Re: Medium module cap usage vs small module cap usage

Styx wrote:

Medium miner modules certainly require WAY to much accumulator consumption. A heavy miner mech fitted with 5 med modules simply isn't going to be able to perma run them even with good extensions and accumulator upgrades, which it should be able to do.

Has anyone bothered putting accumulator rechargers on their mechs yet before attempting to  perma-running anything? Nobody has answered the question about mech load-outs yet. Balance needs to account for everything in the game, not just the performance of one mech and one specific module.

Re: Medium module cap usage vs small module cap usage

Fumen wrote:
Styx wrote:

Medium miner modules certainly require WAY to much accumulator consumption. A heavy miner mech fitted with 5 med modules simply isn't going to be able to perma run them even with good extensions and accumulator upgrades, which it should be able to do.

Has anyone bothered putting accumulator rechargers on their mechs yet before attempting to  perma-running anything? Nobody has answered the question about mech load-outs yet. Balance needs to account for everything in the game, not just the performance of one mech and one specific module.

My test was with an accumulator recharger in I just forgot to list it

And I was only running the gun and sensor booster all the time the armor repper was clicked on and off imediatly so it gave just 1 cycle and that was 75% of the core gone, you can see it dropping with every volly and not recovering and only 14 salvos fired

So in my case I can safely say I was not trying to perma run anything just see how well the core stood up to "normal use"

Last edited by Kveldulfson (2009-11-30 16:11:38)

Re: Medium module cap usage vs small module cap usage

Fumen wrote:
Styx wrote:

Medium miner modules certainly require WAY to much accumulator consumption. A heavy miner mech fitted with 5 med modules simply isn't going to be able to perma run them even with good extensions and accumulator upgrades, which it should be able to do.

Has anyone bothered putting accumulator rechargers on their mechs yet before attempting to  perma-running anything? Nobody has answered the question about mech load-outs yet. Balance needs to account for everything in the game, not just the performance of one mech and one specific module.

Miner attributes(boost of the med miner is the shorter cycle time, both modules mine the same amouth/cycle)
small : 20 ap/18 sec = 1,1 ap/s
med : 100 ap/12sec = 8,33 ap/s

Termis: 2x cap recharger and 2x aux accumulator. Max what I was able to perma run was 2x med miner and 3x small miner. 2x 8,33 + 3x 1,1 ~ 20 ap/s.
I got the capacitor extensions at around lvl 2 both skills are dificulty 5 !!!, miner eff extension at lvl 0 dificulty 4.

5x med miner ~  41,6 ap/s

3x small miner = 2x med miner when it comes to "ore U/time".

Re: Medium module cap usage vs small module cap usage

The huge gap is comes from that you need to feel the difference  if you use medium modules on small runners or small modules on mechs.
There was a pvp beta half year ago, and there were intensive moduletesting, groupbattles, free for all, in any possible combination of runners, mechs and so on. We are happy with the current states of the modules, but as you probably know, there is always something better than other in certain ways. You need to think on global, check out many many ways of usage, situation. It is much more complex than simple stat comparing.

Since mining wasnt part of the pvp beta, the mining core usage extensions got a good boost

Re: Medium module cap usage vs small module cap usage

As it stands med. mining modules are in fact useless (on mechs and smaller, have to test on heavies when added) the reason being that to use just 2 med miners on a termis I have to devote all my lowslots and around 30,000 ep to cpu and accumulator extensions. With that same ep I could be in a destroyer industry mech (when they are added) and have MUCH better yield spending it on mining extentions. I forsee myself being in a mining destroyer mech and STILL using all small mining lasers for quite some time. Untill mining skills are nearly maxed out and then it finnaly becomes practical to train the skills needed to fit bigger mining lasers.

PS: As it stands those leg slots are much better used fitting mass reducers or armor rep/shield.

Last edited by Blackomen (2009-11-30 23:09:12)

Re: Medium module cap usage vs small module cap usage

What my GM friend here meant to say is actually that "mining core usage extensions will get a good boost" next patch smile

Additionally some miner cycle time extensions have been nerfed, since the problem is that the core can't maintain the ridiculously short cycles of medium miners. To somewhat counter this, miner tunings will give yield bonus instead of cycle time.

Of course you will still be able to bring it out of balance by only upgrading cycle time extensions but not core efficiency, but if you do it right there shouldn't be a problem maintaining 4 medium miners on a Termis for example.

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." -- Bill Cosby

Re: Medium module cap usage vs small module cap usage

Well that answers some of the questions around the mining bots and modules. owever I still feel the Medium guns on a Mech take far too much power for the advantage gained.

Re: Medium module cap usage vs small module cap usage

I ll test mining after the patch again and we will see. Still 7,5x cap consumtion to get a 66,7% boost seems a bit off.

About the med weaponst. I am cross training to "Pelistal Empire". Pls pls pls keep the weapons as they are now. Thank you smile

Re: Medium module cap usage vs small module cap usage

DEV Zoom wrote:

What my GM friend here meant to say is actually that "mining core usage extensions will get a good boost" next patch smile

Additionally some miner cycle time extensions have been nerfed, since the problem is that the core can't maintain the ridiculously short cycles of medium miners. To somewhat counter this, miner tunings will give yield bonus instead of cycle time.

Of course you will still be able to bring it out of balance by only upgrading cycle time extensions but not core efficiency, but if you do it right there shouldn't be a problem maintaining 4 medium miners on a Termis for example.

Thats wonderful, thanks for clarifying, sounds like you have fixed the problem, can't wait for the patch. smile

Re: Medium module cap usage vs small module cap usage

I didn't find any skill that reduces cap consumption on Guns

Agree on that !
Laser acumulator usage is out of control . Theres lots on bonuses that reduce ROF , what makes acumulator hungry lasers even worse. And there only 2 or 3 extention to make acumulator better .
Also Acumulator related extentions requared reactor extention an that strange .
There should be some extention like , reduce acu usage of weapon and / or armor repairs.
Could be some bonus for laser speced bots (Hello amarr tongue ), something like "Thelodica robot control" but chage it from tiny 1% rof reduce to 3-5% acu usage reduce.
Or just tune a bit cap usage of lasers.

Re: Medium module cap usage vs small module cap usage

medium miner are no problem - theres an extension that is reducing their AP/Cycle by 5%
- thats enough to perma run them.

med. Laser and med. Armor Repair-modules are pretty energy hungry.

i just noticed that those missile bots are at the advantage - example Tyranos mech:

4 primary Missile slots, and 2 secondary turret slots.

you can fit that mech with all four primary Missiles, and energy-drainer as secondarys, while the Artemis (Laser bot) got four turret and one missile slot (thats already one weapon less) and has to replace primary weapons to fit drainers in.

Re: Medium module cap usage vs small module cap usage

JohnyGee wrote:

Medium guns/miners/harvesters require 5 times more cap then their small counterparts. I want to ask why there is such a huge gab?

= The damage of medium guns is about 2 times more then of their small counterparts. For miners/harvester it is only 67% better yeld.

= Mech do have like 6 times more cap capacity But the cap recharge is truly important and that is only 2,5 times better.

= When I am NPCing which requires to stay in battle longer it is accually better to use small guns. I do 1/2 damage but I got 5 times more cap to keep my defence running.

= I didn't find any skill that reduces cap consumption on Guns.

= Isn't there an inbalace with Missle launchers using virtually no cap?

The Larger bots that have much much bigger CPUs and Reactors can handle the load of meadium mods. This is a limiting factor samller bots. Samller bots get bonuses for Smaller Mods, Lerger bots get Bonuses of larger mods. Just because you can Puch a 286ci engine into a Vega doesn't mean it will work. You want to use larger Mods then get a larger mech that can handle the increases.

As for Cappacitors ,and thier recharge rates currently we have Standard Capacitor rechargers, and Capacitor Restoring Mods. With the release of the medium Cap Boosters ,and Cap rechargers [along with Level 6+ Energy management for Cap recharge rate increase] you can fit all those medium Mods onto your Mech/hvy mech with limited restrictions.

Efficient Weapon Ussage lowers CPU and another skill reduces Reactor usage. For cap rate use Mods to regen Cap or t Refill it. Energy Management is a god send skill.

ACs and Missles use little cap and it seems to work well. Once it fires there is no more draw on tha capacitor, compared to a lazer that pumps out a beam of energy. The fact that Missles have a lower range than lazers it tends to work out well as a balanceing factor. Guess that is why All bots have at least 1 Missle slot.

Re: Medium module cap usage vs small module cap usage

I run my termis with 4 mediums, 2 tuners, 2 caps, 2 extensions.
And i perma run the miners.

Just trying to fit the last 2 tuners and its being a roll
Will post the energy management skills tonight.

On a side note, i have not played with medium guns on a mech.

Last edited by Afro (2010-01-13 01:30:59)