26 (edited by Lucius Marcellus 2011-11-01 17:51:03)

Re: Plasma and NIC supply

Cobalt wrote:

Biggest corps = internal markets, no NIC influx in open economy, no inflation.
Small corps/players = no NIC production power to make inflation incontrolable.

No here's the mistake, corps farm PvE (some more than others) even if they have a an internal market. Hence they get plasma, hence they increase the NIC supply. NO corp has members buying purely internally (yes I know).

Anyhow, you seem you have completely ignored the fact that I said explicitly that this is not a discussion on what NIC/h is reasonable, but purely if a large proportion should come from straight NIC rather than mod/minerals/other drops.

Re: Plasma and NIC supply

Lucius Marcellus wrote:

Anyhow, you seem you have completely ignored the fact that I said explicitly that this is not a discussion on what NIC/h is reasonable, but purely if a large proportion should come from straight NIC rather than mod/minerals/other drops.

There are 2 NIC sources;

NPC buy orders
Missions

The NPC buy orders for mods have always been low, so low infact it was more profitable to recycle them for commodities. And the ore buy orders are much much below market.

Mission income was very good with the golden triangle, and with the level 4/5 transports. However with the triangles removal, the volume of NIC from missions is greatly reduced (even though the level 4/5 are active, there's just not many risking them).

This leaves Plasma as the best NIC faucet, even more so now that its a byproduct of farming beacons.

The only difference is that the income has now moved from the industrials over to the combat players.

Industrial players pushed this NIC back into the market immediately through buying ore and kernels.

Players in corporations are buy MOST of their items from the internal markets, so much of that NIC is not goint directly back into the market.

I doubt many indepenant ratters are earning 10M/hr, a few yes, but the majority are probably 2-3M NIC per hour, which is about what indy earned in the GTriangle. And independant NIC does go into the market.

So, while plasma may be generating more NIC now, the general economy/market is probably not going to see inflation; at least until the population increases dramatically.

Side note: Corps usually have very large wallets, if this NIC were to all flow into the market, that could cause inflation. Which goes back to the issue of not having any large NIC sinks for corporations.

28 (edited by Purgatory 2011-11-01 18:34:21)

Re: Plasma and NIC supply

Today I farmed 300k+ of plasma in less than 6 hours. 100 mill+ nic from npc sales in 6 hours.

And yes it is inflation even if I haven't spent it yet smile

Re: Plasma and NIC supply

But how much inflation?

First, lets make sure we are all taking about the same thing;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation

In economics, inflation is a rise in the general level of prices of goods and services in an economy over a period of time.

The amount of NIC in the system is only indirectly related to inflation. The proposed relation, I assume, is that if players have more NIC demand on the market will increase.

If supply remains the same, but demand increases, then prices will rise. The change in pricing over a period of time is then inflation or deflation as the case may be.

The kicker here though, is we have a fixed number of goods that can be bought and sold.

So, although the NIC supply in the system increases, it will hit a ceiling where demand stops increasing because of market saturation.

A few players with large NIC balances will not cause inflation. Inflation is caused when everyone has excess NIC which they are willing to spend on items at ever increasing values.

Re: Plasma and NIC supply

Purgatory wrote:

And yes it is inflation even if I haven't spent it yet smile

Hum no its not. Inflation as Arga said is based on market pricing, not quantity of currency in the system.

Arga wrote:

A few players with large NIC balances will not cause inflation. Inflation is caused when everyone has excess NIC which they are willing to spend on items at ever increasing values.

Exactly its not the high difference of income power between most income(vets)/worst income(newb) that creates inflation. Its the general and proportional increase of buying power (demand), wich is obviously related to the total amount of nic in the system, but also related to the even or uneven distribution of those nic.

I insist there could be gazillions of nic in the system and no inflation happens, its linked but not in the way "+1 nic in system = +x% inflation".

Oh and Purgatory, are we really talking the same thing? You make 50k plasmas PER hour, alone, with no alt support etc? Cause it change the whole maths too. When we consider all those things, the unit is character, not player. If you got an alt support, you can cut that in half.

Re: Plasma and NIC supply

Cobalt wrote:
Purgatory wrote:

And yes it is inflation even if I haven't spent it yet smile

Hum no its not. Inflation as Arga said is based on market pricing, not quantity of currency in the system.

Arga wrote:

A few players with large NIC balances will not cause inflation. Inflation is caused when everyone has excess NIC which they are willing to spend on items at ever increasing values.

Exactly its not the high difference of income power between most income(vets)/worst income(newb) that creates inflation. Its the general and proportional increase of buying power (demand), wich is obviously related to the total amount of nic in the system, but also related to the even or uneven distribution of those nic.

I insist there could be gazillions of nic in the system and no inflation happens, its linked but not in the way "+1 nic in system = +x% inflation".

Oh and Purgatory, are we really talking the same thing? You make 50k plasmas PER hour, alone, with no alt support etc? Cause it change the whole maths too. When we consider all those things, the unit is character, not player. If you got an alt support, you can cut that in half.

When too much currency is added to an economy, inflation occurs. Plasma causes inflation.

Re: Plasma and NIC supply

Purgatory wrote:
Cobalt wrote:
Purgatory wrote:

And yes it is inflation even if I haven't spent it yet smile

Hum no its not. Inflation as Arga said is based on market pricing, not quantity of currency in the system.

Arga wrote:

A few players with large NIC balances will not cause inflation. Inflation is caused when everyone has excess NIC which they are willing to spend on items at ever increasing values.

Exactly its not the high difference of income power between most income(vets)/worst income(newb) that creates inflation. Its the general and proportional increase of buying power (demand), wich is obviously related to the total amount of nic in the system, but also related to the even or uneven distribution of those nic.

I insist there could be gazillions of nic in the system and no inflation happens, its linked but not in the way "+1 nic in system = +x% inflation"


Oh and Purgatory, are we really talking the same thing? You make 50k plasmas PER hour, alone, with no alt support etc? Cause it change the whole maths too. When we consider all those things, the unit is character, not player. If you got an alt support, you can cut that in half.

When too much currency is added to an economy, inflation occurs. Plasma causes inflation.



That's right more currency in the system means the value of the currency will decrease, meaning you will need more of it to buy items, hence inflation.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Plasma and NIC supply

All it's going to mean is that the people who know how to farm effectively will be considerably more influential (Even if only behind the scenes) because of the much larger capital.

I know there are people out there that individually have more assets than the entire corp they are in.

What it means in the short term is that the market is a risk. Put thing too cheap and someone just buys them out and re-lists them higher or produces something so cheap that very few can compete.

But that's life. New players get priced out of the market and have to rely on over-supply to keep prices down which doesn't happen because there is more than enough to keep every supplier busy or risk their enemies will buy cheap stuff so they avoid the direct market all together.

All it means is that assets are worth more than NIC but I see the opposite happening. When you do find something that is supplied the price is pretty low compared to about 12 months ago.

Re: Plasma and NIC supply

Purgatory wrote:

When too much currency is added to an economy, inflation occurs. Plasma causes inflation.

This is called Monetary Inflation, which doesn't always mean there will be material inflation.

There are a few players posting to the forums about getting a lot of NIC/hour, but that doesn't give us actual income numbers for the population as a whole. We also don't have any numbers on NIC sinks.

NIC IN >> NIC OUT

Cash in has to be much bigger than cash out, and for an extended period of time, before monetary inflation cascades to material inflation.

I believe you posted you had Billions of NIC in your bank that you've been using to buy kernels. Pushing billions of NIC into the economy didn't raise the cost of T4 light weight frames, even if it had a direct effect on kernels, that was a simple supply/demand issue.

Extrapolating, which is all we can do without real figures, on what Alex is saying; Monetary inflation will only occur if all that new NIC goes into, and stays in, circulation. More likey the NIC will do what it has always done, POOL up in wallets waiting for something to buy (Like POS).

I'll agree that more NIC in the system does devalue NIC, but some inflation is good; and inevitable.

35 (edited by Sundial 2011-11-02 17:37:33)

Re: Plasma and NIC supply

Arga wrote:
Purgatory wrote:

When too much currency is added to an economy, inflation occurs. Plasma causes inflation.

This is called Monetary Inflation, which doesn't always mean there will be material inflation.

There are a few players posting to the forums about getting a lot of NIC/hour, but that doesn't give us actual income numbers for the population as a whole. We also don't have any numbers on NIC sinks.

NIC IN >> NIC OUT

Cash in has to be much bigger than cash out, and for an extended period of time, before monetary inflation cascades to material inflation.

I believe you posted you had Billions of NIC in your bank that you've been using to buy kernels. Pushing billions of NIC into the economy didn't raise the cost of T4 light weight frames, even if it had a direct effect on kernels, that was a simple supply/demand issue.

Extrapolating, which is all we can do without real figures, on what Alex is saying; Monetary inflation will only occur if all that new NIC goes into, and stays in, circulation. More likey the NIC will do what it has always done, POOL up in wallets waiting for something to buy (Like POS).

I'll agree that more NIC in the system does devalue NIC, but some inflation is good; and inevitable.

When we had triangle inflation (many items selling for double the prices they are now), the prices of all ores went down for some reason, but the prices of all goods was way up.

Any theories on this? Shouldn't the price of ore/commodities go up with inflation instead of down? After the triangle was ended, all prices on ore went up slightly and many items deflated price 50%.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: Plasma and NIC supply

The players running the triangle were using the NIC income to buy ore for production.

The purchase of ore wasn't wholly dependant on them selling modules, so they could continue having a demand on the ore sales independant of the marketing of goods.

When they lost that NIC source, they no longer had the funds to purchase ore independantly, so demand for ore dropped; Lower demand, lower prices.

In general, the market is so small that individuals can have a dramatic effect on the prices, especially T4 which has a limited number of suppliers. That is, there are more players mining for income, so individual players can't adjust titan ore prices (they can move them down by flooding the market) upwards. It is possible though for T4 producers to do so, simply by matching current prices, or by putting them up for more then market and waiting.

tl;dr - The population and market are too small to apply any real ecomomic analysis, but in general supply and demand drives the ore market while modules/bots can be more readily manipulated.

Re: Plasma and NIC supply

correct me if I am wrong, but except missions, plasma buy orders are the ONLY other NIC faucets in the game. since we do not have direct NPC bounties, the general PvE crowd has no other income.

all other loot is regulated by player demand.

Re: Plasma and NIC supply

Arga wrote:

The players running the triangle were using the NIC income to buy ore for production.

The purchase of ore wasn't wholly dependant on them selling modules, so they could continue having a demand on the ore sales independant of the marketing of goods.

When they lost that NIC source, they no longer had the funds to purchase ore independantly, so demand for ore dropped; Lower demand, lower prices.

In general, the market is so small that individuals can have a dramatic effect on the prices, especially T4 which has a limited number of suppliers. That is, there are more players mining for income, so individual players can't adjust titan ore prices (they can move them down by flooding the market) upwards. It is possible though for T4 producers to do so, simply by matching current prices, or by putting them up for more then market and waiting.

tl;dr - The population and market are too small to apply any real ecomomic analysis, but in general supply and demand drives the ore market while modules/bots can be more readily manipulated.

Market can be easily influenced by corporations.

During the Great War against M2S CIR & CHAOS did organized market-warfare to raise epriton price through the roof (when we still thought they were playing "legit" and buying everything off the market). If memory serves we skyrocketed it from 11 NIC p/u to 16+ NIC p/u by pouring a few hundred million NIC into setting up buy orders on a rotation schedule.

Re: Plasma and NIC supply

I don't think plasma was a good idea at all.
In my opinion, money should be gained through a missions.
Missions should be as much dynamic as possible.
Missions should be tied to global game state, f.e. current state of war with NIAns.

Profit: reasonable NIC grinding.
Negative part: You will be not able to grind stupid mob spawns for plasma anymore.

Re: Plasma and NIC supply

Naismith wrote:

During the Great War against M2S CIR & CHAOS did organized market-warfare to raise epriton price through the roof (when we still thought they were playing "legit" and buying everything off the market).

Good times big_smile

Re: Plasma and NIC supply

Naismith wrote:

Market can be easily influenced by corporations.

During the Great War against M2S CIR & CHAOS did organized market-warfare to raise epriton price through the roof (when we still thought they were playing "legit" and buying everything off the market). If memory serves we skyrocketed it from 11 NIC p/u to 16+ NIC p/u by pouring a few hundred million NIC into setting up buy orders on a rotation schedule.

I've seen this many times in WOW markets, where someone buys up all the Iron, for instance, then turns around and sells it at a higher price.

This works as long as the buyer can afford to purchase the lower incoming iron sell orders, forcing buyers to pay thier prices, and the demand for iron continues long enough for them to realize a return.

In the case your talking about, the buyer had basically unlimited NIC, so there wasn't ever any risk of running out of capital to purchase Epitron; but that was an exploit and not normal market operation.

In the current market, without exploits, there are still players with very large wallets that could, if they wanted, drive the price of anything up. Epitron is now more freely mined, with the open Islands, T4 modules can be produced by many more players, and ore/plants are plentiful.

About the only thing out there to manipulate woudl be Norgalis, but even then if prices get too high players can plant that on alpha too.

tl;dr- Currently the market is too small for any large scale manipulation to be 'worthwhile'. Even if someone managed to raise the cost of an item, the demand would just fall off as other non-market sources where tapped. The only 'losers' would be new players without access to auxillary resources.

Re: Plasma and NIC supply

Hugh Ruka wrote:

correct me if I am wrong, but except missions, plasma buy orders are the ONLY other NIC faucets in the game. since we do not have direct NPC bounties, the general PvE crowd has no other income.

all other loot is regulated by player demand.

There are NPC buy orders for modules and ore, which are also NIC sources; they are under market value, but create a pricing 'floor'.

Insurance is actually a nic faucet too, just not a very effcient one. But if the market was completely dead, meaning ores had no resale value, you could still make more on Insurance then the NIC sink cost of manufactoring sequars.