Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Very funny.
As I understand it you have not read after words "The current system is better balanced than suggested by you."

This is not sandbox. This is a Box of Chocolates...

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Blah-blah-blah, now back to the topic.

Any new system shouldn't make research process harder than the current one - new players already have an disadvantage due to decreasing kernel droprate, implementing and then removing grand observers (and decreasing their kernel droprate too), decreasing droprate of tiered stuff aswell. Current perpetuum life became more harder than that one we have right after release. And btw any changes were already made didn't affected players knowledge base in any way - thats about any rewards you're asking for.

Back to the pool idea - to prevent any not-too-useful-to-spend-research points-to issues, all the technologies may be linked somehow, based on logic or even adding brand new technology lines. Says, to get sensor amps t2, you should learn more about electronics - so you should learn all these cargo and chassis scanners to get an advantage with that.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

53 (edited by Hunter 2011-10-17 08:17:01)

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Line wrote:

Blah-blah-blah, now back to the topic.

Any new system shouldn't make research process harder than the current one - new players already have an disadvantage due to decreasing kernel droprate, implementing and then removing grand observers (and decreasing their kernel droprate too), decreasing droprate of tiered stuff aswell. Current perpetuum life became more harder than that one we have right after release. And btw any changes were already made didn't affected players knowledge base in any way - thats about any rewards you're asking for.

Back to the pool idea - to prevent any not-too-useful-to-spend-research points-to issues, all the technologies may be linked somehow, based on logic or even adding brand new technology lines. Says, to get sensor amps t2, you should learn more about electronics - so you should learn all these cargo and chassis scanners to get an advantage with that.

Hunter wrote:

Imagine a torn book. Pages scattered over a territory. Suppose there are ten different books. You are gathered by 15-20% of the pages from each book. Do you know the theory of probability? Believe me, even if it's the same books, you will have very little chance to collect all the pages for a complete copy.
How RP is combined with the reality?

Everyone knows about Line's hatred of me. For the sake of hatred you are ready to accept any solution other than my.
Can you offer something of your own? Or you fear of criticism?

This is not sandbox. This is a Box of Chocolates...

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Guys...
RP idea was taken from the WoW. There you can learn recipes from trainers and with using of scrolls. Crafting with difficult recipes (marked orange) you can raise skill of craft.
If you take an idea from this game, I suggest to add paladins and elves. (why not?)

This is not sandbox. This is a Box of Chocolates...

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

I've already did that, re-read this thread plox. Also - there is absolutely nothing personal. Your idea isn't bad at all, I just think it will be more harder to understand for new players. And yes, I like research pool more than your idea, but again, there is nothing personal. Now if you finished with your hate to my hate to you, maybe we can get back to a discussion?

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Ok. Then I suggest a separate topic with a discussion of this idea.

This is not sandbox. This is a Box of Chocolates...

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Lucius Marcellus wrote:

Hunter's system
First of all, as you want to speed-up gaining the initial tech by 20-50 times, it's extremely easy to get, and provides no barrier what-so-ever. Then you are proposing that kernels should be required to make the items. This might sound cool, but it is really just an increase in material cost.

Hence, your proposal is to make everyone able to make T4, but increase the production cost. I think it's pretty clear that the developers do not only want T4 to be fairly expensive, but also quite hard to get (given the trend of requiring more kernels). But even so, if you want to increase the cost, why not just increase the materials needed?

As the cost of items can easily be changed with the components required, you are really just suggesting to remove the barrier of research. I'm against that as I believe the higher level tech items are meant to be at least in some sense limited access.

If you want to get back on topic, please respond to this then Hunter. (and no, your response about mining vs hunters income was insanely out of topic from this)

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Lucius Marcellus wrote:
Lucius Marcellus wrote:

Hunter's system
First of all, as you want to speed-up gaining the initial tech by 20-50 times, it's extremely easy to get, and provides no barrier what-so-ever. Then you are proposing that kernels should be required to make the items. This might sound cool, but it is really just an increase in material cost.
...etc....

If you want to get back on topic, please respond to this then Hunter. (and no, your response about mining vs hunters income was insanely out of topic from this)

Honestly I do not understand the essence of your question. In the first post, I described a system of movement of money in the game. Obviously the movement and accumulation of money at the miners. If you increase the amount of materials the flow of money to the miners will increase too. Therefore, I am against the increase in material cost. Why do I need to repeat that has been said already?
About barrier study was an important point. Now the man who overcame the barrier of research can relax and do nothing. This is bad because the person is deprived of purpose. He can just dig materials to make prototypes. Materials that are missing, he can buy (cheap).
Kernel of the first level learn quickly and become useless.
First-level decoders generally not used except for begginers (try).

I propose to make the system of research as a process instead of the ultimate goal.

This is not sandbox. This is a Box of Chocolates...

59 (edited by Lucius Marcellus 2011-10-17 11:37:37)

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

1) I reiterate that if you base your system on balancing mining income (or create a demand for lvl 1 decoders), that's just plain wrong. Why? Because you're suggesting to fix a few minor problems by completely overhauling a fundamental part of the game.

2) Well, if you take away the barrier, I can relax just as much, I'll just buy the kernels and decoders just as I buy the materials. It does not make it much more complicated or interesting, it's just one one more thing you need in storage when clicking the button. Hence, as I already said, it's just a way of increasing cost. It will be just as when I create a standard item, which is quite relaxing!

3) About 'purpose', either you prototype for a corp, in which case it's not a personal achievement, and so it doesn't matter as the corp has done it to supply its members. Otherwise it's an individual producer, and then he has set this as his goal, not up to you to say it's a bad goal.

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

So you want to add kernels and decoders to a construction process? Correct me if I'm wrong.

If so, why don't just add cortexes to a mk-1 robots? They can be farmed instead of arties, or even maybe separate them to Usual (for mk-1) and Uncommon (for mk-2). That will add the necessary of farming in bots production, not just mining.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

61 (edited by Annihilator 2011-10-17 12:02:02)

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

hunters suggestion is working like fragments:

you either use them for prototyping, or your recycle them and use the materials

his suggestion is:
Kernels are used like fragments in prototype construction, and two options:

you either research kernels and get a long term KB that is reducing your kernel-costs when creating a prototype
or
you use many of them to create a single prototype without KB.

result:
even if you have finished your research, you still need to consume kernels
and
if your desperate to build a certain item no matter the costs, you can do it directly.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Annihilator wrote:

hunters suggestion is working like fragments:

you either use them for prototyping, or your recycle them and use the materials

his suggestion is:
Kernels are used like fragments in prototype construction, and two options:

you either research kernels and get a long term KB that is reducing your kernel-costs when creating a prototype
or
you use many of them to create a single prototype without KB.

result:
even if you have finished your research, you still need to consume kernels
and
if your desperate to build a certain item no matter the costs, you can do it directly.

You forgot about CTs of prototypes. They will creates without any materials except kernels and decoders.

This is not sandbox. This is a Box of Chocolates...

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

How that will be balanced in kernels-materials cost? I mean, to create says a prototype of HMech, you need alots of resources. How many kernels should you decode directly to make the cost equal?

Thats very simple example. However, balance between kernels and materials amount can make direct research useful only for things that you really-really want to prototype but still hasn't enough knowledge. In all other case, with current kernels droprate, people will still prototype stuff in usual way, cuz it's, you know, faster.

As I've already said, idea isn't bad at all, but it will work in very special cases I'm afraid. Newbies who don't have a tech but have kernels, they better research them to get any advantage, and vets, well - only if their prototyper guy is very lazy or left the game.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

64 (edited by Lucius Marcellus 2011-10-17 13:24:29)

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Annihilator wrote:

hunters suggestion is working like fragments:

you either use them for prototyping, or your recycle them and use the materials

his suggestion is:
Kernels are used like fragments in prototype construction, and two options:

you either research kernels and get a long term KB that is reducing your kernel-costs when creating a prototype
or
you use many of them to create a single prototype without KB.

result:
even if you have finished your research, you still need to consume kernels
and
if your desperate to build a certain item no matter the costs, you can do it directly.

That is a lot clearer! (I was not able to extract that from the initial post, but kudos!) Hunter, can you confirm this is what you meant?

I'm not sure why the research speed has to be adjusted though. One can add a kernel requirement for making prototype, and simply add the option to make an expensive version if you do not have the research. However, I need to point out that the prototype is a small fraction of the per item cost when producing, so in order to balance this well, the unresearched prototype must be extremely expensive in terms of kernels needed.

To demonstrate what I mean, with one prototype you can probably get close to 100 modules (depends on decoder blah blah, just approx). If the researched prototype costs 10M to make, and the unresearched one costs 15M, the average cost on the actual item is 5M/100=50k higher off unresearched prototype. Clearly 50k is a very small efficiency gain given the investment, so the unresearched prototype would need to be very, very expensive.

NOTE: If this is what Hunter meant I think it could be good if that's not clear, but one has to make sure the unresearched prototype is indeed very, very expensive, as otherwise there's no point in researching.

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Lucius Marcellus wrote:
Hunter wrote:
Annihilator wrote:

hunters suggestion is working like fragments:

you either use them for prototyping, or your recycle them and use the materials

his suggestion is:
Kernels are used like fragments in prototype construction, and two options:

you either research kernels and get a long term KB that is reducing your kernel-costs when creating a prototype
or
you use many of them to create a single prototype without KB.

result:
even if you have finished your research, you still need to consume kernels
and
if your desperate to build a certain item no matter the costs, you can do it directly.

You forgot about CTs of prototypes. They will creates without any materials except kernels and decoders.

That is a lot clearer! (I was not able to extract that from the initial post, but kudos!) Hunter, can you confirm this is what you meant?

I'm not sure why the research speed has to be adjusted though. One can add a kernel requirement for making prototype, and simply add the option to make an expensive version if you do not have the research. However, I need to point out that the prototype is a small fraction of the per item cost when producing, so in order to balance this well, the unresearched prototype must be extremely expensive in terms of kernels needed.

You get the idea.

1) KB will exist in any case. But learning will be simple and faster.
2) Prototypes will creates with mateerials+kernels+decoders (in various combinations)
3) CT of prototypes will creates only with kernels+decoders. It's provides create prototypes in factory. (here expensive kernel cost)

This is not sandbox. This is a Box of Chocolates...

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

So at the end:

1. To create a prototype, you should use kernels and decoders.
2. To create a CT from a prototype, you should use kernels and decoders.

Is that correct?

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

67 (edited by Hunter 2011-10-17 13:41:42)

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Line wrote:

So at the end:

1. To create a prototype, you should use kernels and decoders.
2. To create a CT from a prototype, you should use kernels and decoders.

Is that correct?

1. To create a prototype, you should use materials, kernels and decoders.
2. To create a prototype-CT, you should use many kernels and decoders. (prototype not required)

And before you should learn item.

This is not sandbox. This is a Box of Chocolates...

68 (edited by Lucius Marcellus 2011-10-17 13:45:00)

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Seems we have more of an agreement then. However, I do not think your idea requires research to be done faster (doing that would just create a long balancing act as we've talked about extensively).

Edit:
Can we clarify this whole prototype vs prototype CT thing? I thought it was just Researched VS Unresearched prototypes, where the unresearched one is far more expensive?

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Lucius Marcellus wrote:

Seems we have more of an agreement then. However, I do not think your idea requires research to be done faster (doing that would just create a long balancing act as we've talked about extensively).

Edit:
Can we clarify this whole prototype vs prototype CT thing? I thought it was just Researched VS Unresearched prototypes, where the unresearched one is far more expensive?

We can discuss the variants...

This is not sandbox. This is a Box of Chocolates...

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

IMO creating a prototype CT will be too expensive, cuz you may need a REALLY lots of kernels, to balance the prototyping cost, making the whole idea useless in most cases - still, it will be better to research kernels you have, sell plasma you got from farming and buy a materials or a prototype you need.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Line wrote:

IMO creating a prototype CT will be too expensive, cuz you may need a REALLY lots of kernels, to balance the prototyping cost, making the whole idea useless in most cases - still, it will be better to research kernels you have, sell plasma you got from farming and buy a materials or a prototype you need.

Well, as it should be then! Unresearched prototypes should only be attractive to make if you want to make a run. For large-scale corps, the long-term choice should definitely be to actually obtain the research.

But I agree, ultimately the unresearched system is, and should be, more of an emergency button when you really need something now. If not, it's a virtually impossible balance game to make both options attractive.

72 (edited by Line 2011-10-17 14:26:57)

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

So that doesn't change research system at all, just an useful add-on. Research Pool idea sounds good still, and may be linked somehow with Hunter's system. Says, RP-points can be used to unlock tech, or (with increased price ofc) can be used to create a CT. Or kernels can be used to create a prototype CT or to add RP points to a pool. Or something like that.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

In Hunters idea, I dont like that kernels are using in research and in prototype creation as well. I would like to encapsulate raw kernel only for research. For prototype creation it will be good to use another item, lets say "prototype components": f.e. you can make this components from kernels and components, or kernels or decoders. Just a detail in your system

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

I dont like RP, because it will lead us to buying desired tech for kernels (believe me, players will demand "tech-shop" anyway). Research should have some kind of randomness. Devs, if you will remove it from research system... well... you can bravely begin to implement "tech-shop" then big_smile

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Let me try an example here, just to make sure I understand Hunter's suggestion.

Alpha producer wants to make T4 med miner modules. They have spent 0 NIC on kernels and have 0 EP into prototyping ("prototype not required").

They purchase 100 golden indy kernels on the market (my defintion of "Use MANY kernels") at 800K each, or 80M NIC and creates a T4 Med Miner CT at 75% with lvl 10 decoder.

Mass production player makes 8 runs for 80 units and sells them for 4M each, or 320M NIC.

----

Not getting too hung up on the NIC values, but making rare items 'dual-purpose' is not a good idea.

There is aleady a very strong demand for higher level kernels, by making research easier that is going to make the demand for higher level kernels increase even more for research. This is because now there are only a few players that are willing to make the investment in working toward those last few items, but if it was easier then everyone will. As long as new players join the game there will always be a steady demand for 'research' kernels. By making the kernels part of the production process that places another 'constant' demand on the high-end kernels. With the current scarcity, 50% drop rates, unfarmable spawns, and beta only bots the cost of kernels would increase dramatically.

It works with fragments because they aren't rare.

Currently the cost of tiered module production is controlled by the availbality of epitron and norgalis - both industrially gathered.

Kernels would end up being even rarer than epitron or norgalis and hence would become the most expensive ingredient in tiered modules - gathered by NPC ratter.

So, yes Hunter's idea would most certainly move the NIC gathering capabilty from the industrials to the NPC farmers; most specifically the beta NPC ratters.

tl;dr - Rare items should not be "dual-purpose". This is why the devs added plasma, so that corporations/players wouldn't have to choose between farming for NIC and farming for kernels.