Topic: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Hello everyone!

Last time i saw alot of messages regarding manufacturing and prototyping.
There is some obvious disadvantages in manufacturing system:

1) Money movement.

This server have two main sources of money income: plasma and missions. Where this money spends?
Hunters spending this money for modules and missiles (and for prototypes, in theory).
Manufacturers spending his money to miners for ore, to prototypers for prototypes.
Prototypers spending his money for kernels and ores.
Miners are on top of his money chain. They will rapidly get t4 equipment, they will safely mine on alpha. As result, miners got money for raw ores and materials.

As result, we have constant flow of money from hunters to miners. How it could be regulated, i dont know yet.

2) Mass production

Mass production is well balanced: devs just need to know what type of equipment should be accessible to the players, and he need just to make it from alpha materials. Theoretically, we have balance here, but this balance is not acceptable for a lot of players.

3) Prototyping

At the moment prototyping is a great obstacle. If you want to research knowledge base, you need to work hard. Knowledge base researching so long so corporations prototyper could drop his account. Obviously, this is not a best thing what could happen. This is not good when corporations forced to make one account with knowledge base.
Summary: there is a lot of risks in research system: trust, huge amount of work etc.
The problem is that finishing KB is a goal now, not a process.

I would like to propose a solution:

1) Speedup research in 20-50 times:
You taking kernel to the research lab. In this lab analysers will analyse the technology in this kernel, and they will tell you how many kernels you need to research all tech what related to this kernel.

2) Use kernels in prototyping
Assuming, you know about existing of certain tech, you gathering data what is inside of kernels. You need to extract this info from gathered kernels, to use it. How? Decoders will make a roll:
For example:
t1 - is level 0 of tech
t2 light - is level 1
t3 light - is level 2
t4 light - is level 3
t2 medium - is level 4
t3 medium - is level 5
t4 medium - is level 6

As result, you will need to extract a data from kernels for each desired tech level with certain decoder. this will make usefull all levels of decoders. This process could be called "targeted decoding".
After data was extracted from kernels, you will be able to create a prototype or CT. You can do it in two ways:
a) You can create a prototype from certain number of kernels and materials
b) you can create a CT of prototype from huge numbers of kernels.

Also, game will need to have three extensions: basic, advanced and expert research. This skill will reduce numbers of kernels what needs for prototypes/CT of prototypes. Also it will be good to tie research to factory level.

What we will have in result?

1) All players will rapidly research desirable tech.
2) Prototypes will be collective achievement, and solo achievement as well.
3) If prototyper will left a corp, this would be not tragic.
4) All kernels (all levels and types) will be required for research and for manufacturing.

This is raw idea. You can add whatever you want to this system: for example to make EW equipment you should combine some colors of kernels etc.

This is not sandbox. This is a Box of Chocolates...

2 (edited by Gremrod 2011-10-15 18:11:44)

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Hunter wrote:

1) Speedup research in 20-50 times:
You taking kernel to the research lab. In this lab analysers will analyse the technology in this kernel, and they will tell you how many kernels you need to research all tech what related to this kernel.

2) Use kernels in prototyping
Assuming, you know about existing of certain tech, you gathering data what is inside of kernels. You need to extract this info from gathered kernels, to use it. How? Decoders will make a roll:
For example:
t1 - is level 0 of tech
t2 light - is level 1
t3 light - is level 2
t4 light - is level 3
t2 medium - is level 4
t3 medium - is level 5
t4 medium - is level 6

As result, you will need to extract a data from kernels for each desired tech level with certain decoder. this will make usefull all levels of decoders. This process could be called "targeted decoding".
After data was extracted from kernels, you will be able to create a prototype or CT. You can do it in two ways:
a) You can create a prototype from certain number of kernels and materials
b) you can create a CT of prototype from huge numbers of kernels.

Also, game will need to have three extensions: basic, advanced and expert research. This skill will reduce numbers of kernels what needs for prototypes/CT of prototypes. Also it will be good to tie research to factory level.

Why not just change the system so when you consume the kernels it add points to a new pool (like EP) called RP (Research Points) Then you can open the KB that displays all tech and use the points to unlock what you want.

Along with this I agree on adjuesting the amount of kernels it takes to research tech.

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

3 (edited by Lucius Marcellus 2011-10-15 18:17:54)

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

So will you refund the kernels spent to obtain current research?

Edit:
Too clarify, though I might have some minors concerns about what you said, I've had similar thoughts previously, and I think this type of system would be fundamentally better. Having that said, the current research system isn't optimal, but changing it still requires a lot of care. Corps and individuals have been working for a long time to attain high research, and what you are proposing is essentially wiping that out. Hence, it's important to discuss the practical problems.

4 (edited by Gremrod 2011-10-15 18:23:37)

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Lucius Marcellus wrote:

So will you refund the kernels spent to obtain current research?

Good question. Giving back raw kernels could be bad for the economy.

If they did a RP pool. They could look at what you have researched already and if they did adjust the research level they could just push points into your RP pool accordly.

Of course if you are someone that has all tech complete. Well I guess you have Rp for when new tech is introduced to the game then. And you can still add points to your pool by consuming more kernels.

*Edit

I think my idea, would also solve the problem around those that have worked hard on their tech. That hard work is not lost with the refund in the form of Research Points. Of course this depends on if they really did an adjustment to research of tech.

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

5 (edited by Hunter 2011-10-15 18:22:31)

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Our corporation has several prototypers (t4). Everyone agrees with that system.Return of spent kernels is not required.

This is not sandbox. This is a Box of Chocolates...

6 (edited by Lucius Marcellus 2011-10-15 18:25:09)

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Hunter wrote:

Our corporation has several prototipers. Everyone agrees with that system. Spent kernel return is not required.

If kernels are not refunded, it's a huge problem. You're essentially wiping out a lot just because you like the system. Even if I like the thought behind the system, I would never agree to it without a refund. Further, if the Devs did that it would show that they have no respect for what people have been working towards in-game, and I would lose all respect and trust for them.

I think introducing a Research Pool as Gremrod suggested is a good idea, and that used kernels would just be imported to it. This way, the economy is not really in danger as kernels cant be 'dumped' on market after launch.

7 (edited by Hunter 2011-10-15 18:27:44)

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Absolutely all types of kernel available on alpha islands. There is no problems.
If developers are warned in advance of such change, the crisis will not be exact.

This is not sandbox. This is a Box of Chocolates...

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Hunter wrote:

Absolutely all types of kernel available on alpha islands. There is no problems.

I do understand you idea, or maybe I don't.

Do you want to bypass the prototyping part and create CTs from Kernels + decoders?

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

9 (edited by Hunter 2011-10-15 18:32:22)

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Gremrod wrote:
Hunter wrote:

Absolutely all types of kernel available on alpha islands. There is no problems.

I do understand you idea, or maybe I don't.

Do you want to bypass the prototyping part and create CTs from Kernels + decoders?

almost right.
CT of prototypes, or prototypes. There is no bypassing. Base will need to learn anyway.

This is not sandbox. This is a Box of Chocolates...

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Hunter wrote:
Gremrod wrote:
Hunter wrote:

Absolutely all types of kernel available on alpha islands. There is no problems.

I do understand you idea, or maybe I don't.

Do you want to bypass the prototyping part and create CTs from Kernels + decoders?

almost right.
CT of prototypes, or prototypes. There is no bypassing. Base will need to learn anyway.

Ah okay I see.... Hmmm.

But if they adjust the level of kernels research values. How would you suggest the compinsate those that have already finished the tech tree with the current system?

Or do they need to be compisated?

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Gremrod wrote:
Hunter wrote:
Gremrod wrote:

I do understand you idea, or maybe I don't.

Do you want to bypass the prototyping part and create CTs from Kernels + decoders?

almost right.
CT of prototypes, or prototypes. There is no bypassing. Base will need to learn anyway.

Ah okay I see.... Hmmm.

But if they adjust the level of kernels research values. How would you suggest the compinsate those that have already finished the tech tree with the current system?

Or do they need to be compisated?

Any compinsation not required. Prototyping should be a process, not a goal.

This is not sandbox. This is a Box of Chocolates...

12 (edited by Lucius Marcellus 2011-10-15 18:42:31)

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Just a question Hunter, if you really like the system, why are you so opposed to kernel refund into a Research Pool? It doesn't change your idea.

No compensation for the ones who have the research currently is insane, it's like arbitrarily wiping out wealth in the economy for no reason. The day such an ill-thought proposal gets implemented I won't be here.

13 (edited by Gremrod 2011-10-15 19:06:51)

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Hunter wrote:
Gremrod wrote:
Hunter wrote:

almost right.
CT of prototypes, or prototypes. There is no bypassing. Base will need to learn anyway.

Ah okay I see.... Hmmm.

But if they adjust the level of kernels research values. How would you suggest the compinsate those that have already finished the tech tree with the current system?

Or do they need to be compisated?

Any compinsation not required. Prototyping should be a process, not a goal.

Okay so if it is a process I think they should make it a bit more interesting then.

if they did something like this it would make prototyping so much better I think.

Watch this vid of the game SpaceChem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjYOYtd298o

I would like to see an OPTIONAL process for prototyping that is player active. If the player chooses to use this process they can make their prototype or CTs more efficient. As long as they can eficiently complete the process or expand on it themselves.

I have gone a little of topic with this part. But I thought I would throw this in since you are talking about a change to the prototype process.

I have been thinking about this for a long time.

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Theoretically, we are satisfied with the current system. And will arrange any compensation. We will be a huge win. But I doubt it is necessary.

This is not sandbox. This is a Box of Chocolates...

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Maybe you misunderstood me.

Current knowledge bases should not be erased.

This is not sandbox. This is a Box of Chocolates...

16 (edited by Lucius Marcellus 2011-10-15 18:55:41)

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Hunter wrote:

Maybe you misunderstood me.

Current knowledge bases should not be erased.

I think we got that, but if you then make it 20-50x easier to obtain that initial research, it's the same as deleting invested kernels (as new prototypers just need to invest 2-5% of the kernels). Hence, current researchers should get 95-98% of the kernels invested back.

17 (edited by Gremrod 2011-10-15 18:56:37)

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Hunter wrote:

Maybe you misunderstood me.

Current knowledge bases should not be erased.

Even if you don't erase, those that have completed their tech tree with the current system would be left out in the cold with an increase in the amount of reserach you get from each kernel.

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Anyhow, assuming there is compensation, which there really should be, can we focus on the system instead?

19 (edited by Gremrod 2011-10-15 19:03:14)

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Lucius Marcellus wrote:

Anyhow, assuming there is compensation, which there really should be, can we focus on the system instead?

You're system is one that has been talked about in the past. Well not exactly but close to it. Of course it was just talk and needs to be fleshed out more.

But I like the basics you have.

I just keep wanting more out of it. I want tiny processes in place that allow people to actively make their prototypes more efficient. The first time I played SpaceChem I loved it and saw that is had an element of what I wanted to see in the industry here in Perpetuum.

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Lucius Marcellus wrote:
Hunter wrote:

Maybe you misunderstood me.

Current knowledge bases should not be erased.

I think we got that, but if you then make it 20-50x easier to obtain that initial research, it's the same as deleting invested kernels (as new prototypers just need to invest 2-5% of the kernels). Hence, current researchers should get 95-98% of the kernels invested back.

Lucius, idea meant that research should be speed up to compensate complicated CT/proto creation. As result, manufacturers will need less kernels to research + N kernels to create all required prototypes. As result: ammount of kernels what prototyper will consume will be nearly on level that prototypers used allready (at least this should be ballanced in this way). Thats why compensation should not be required.

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

You are worried for nothing. Nothing is going to change, and you already want compensation. smile

This is not sandbox. This is a Box of Chocolates...

22 (edited by Gremrod 2011-10-15 19:04:45)

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Hunter wrote:

You are worried for nothing. Nothing is going to change, and you already want compensation. smile

No I think it was more of not fully understanding your idea. I assumed you wanted the amount of research increased staticly for each kernel.

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Creating a knowledge base will be very fast and the intermediate stage. Most of kernels will be necessary for the creation of prototypes or CT of prototypes.

This is not sandbox. This is a Box of Chocolates...

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

Hunter wrote:

1) Speedup research in 20-50 times:

Alexadar wrote:

As result: ammount of kernels what prototyper will consume will be nearly on level that prototypers used allready (at least this should be ballanced in this way).

No Alexadar, the amount is not the same.

But once again, why do you have a problem with the compensation? If you don't care, why do you oppose it. As long as you're against this it will be very difficult to get any change. Changing the rule-sets after 1 year is a massive change, and needs to be done is a smart practical manner.

Re: Mining, Manufacture and Research

I like the idea that you need kernels for prototyping as component, similar to the fragments we already have to collect to build prototypes. This would keep up the demand for kernels, even if someone has already finished the research.

Dunno about beeing able to prototype something without the knowledge but only with a certain number of kernels + correct decoder.

About Gremrods idea: that one also has its merits.

i would expand that one:

1. you research kernels, the still give you dice roll based a certain amount of RP (blue, green, yellow, orange) that you can spend to unlock items.
2. to avoid exploitation:
Revamp of the component list of items. Build items from other pre-build items, and not only refined materials
i give some expamples:

  • Light bot:
    T1 CPU
    T1 Reactor
    T1 sensor amp
    T1 hardener (factional highest resist)
    T1 weapon tuning (faction weapon)
    field container
    + duct tape (=plasteosine)

  • T4 med HCL Laser:
    T1 medium LCL Laser (weapon frame)
    T4 Range extender (turning it to long range)
    T4 Laser Tuning (for better damage)
    T3 CPU (i think a laser needs one)
    T1 small accumulator (i think a laser needs one as buffer)
    + duct tape (=plasteosine)

i was told "like in eve" but HELL I DONT CARE, its more like "in real life?"
revamping all those would create a demand for items that are not built or desired atm (about 50% of the KB i guess) and would avoid that someone who wants to build a certain T4 item could build it unlimited without researching anything else.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear