26 Reply by Karism (edited by Karism 2011-08-05 13:03:42)

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Re: Missiles, shortest range and lowest damage?

Just doing a few calculations of Kain vs Tyrannos, can do one for artermis if needed.

All are done with lvl 10 extension and t4 equpment in mind

Kain

Max Locking (without farlock) = 693.825m (220x1.5x1.45x1.45)

Self amped 463.45m (310x1.3x1.15) [2 Amps 1 range extender] falloff = about 100m (though i personally try never to shoot within falloff if i can help it.

Remote boosted 612.912625m (310x1.3x1.15x1.15x1.15) falloff about 100m

Pros

- High Damage for medium/long range weapons.
- Kain is Fast, letting it somewhat dictate distance in long range fights against other races.

Cons

- Some Ap Drain, about 144ap per alpha.
- Los problems

Tyrannos

Max Locking (without farlock) = 725.3625m (230x1.5x1.45x1.45)

Self Amped 649.8765m [Heat-iX)(315x1.2x1.3x1.15x1.15)
              557.037m [Ballistic Chemo] (270x1.2x1.15x1.15)

Remote boosted (needs farlock) 859.46167125m (Heat-ix) (315x1.2x1.3x1.15x1.15)
                     736.6814325m (Ballistic Chemo) (270x1.2x1.3x1.15x1.15x1.15x1.15)

Pros

- Less Los issues (can use hills, some plants etc for cover while still hitting the enemy.)
- Insignificant AP usage.
- Has access to an agent ammo for increased range.
- Can change to short/long range without requiring to re-equip, as it is based off ammo, and not weapon.

Cons

- Less DPS than Turret Races.
- Slower Speed, which makes catching enemies hard if they run or try to dictate range.
- Tyrranos has only 3 leg slots, meaning that if it wants to fit for speed and be able to rep itself, it can only resist one type of weak resist, usually this is kinetic, meaning that it is somewhat weak to other missile bots. (this is ignoring the usage of sheilds for now.)

Do say if one of my calculations are wrong, or where i could add a pro or con.

27 Reply by Mammoth (edited by Mammoth 2011-07-28 17:34:24)

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Re: Missiles, shortest range and lowest damage?

Purgatory wrote:

Why else? How about because one guy does balancing and people are prone to make mistakes?

They need to nerf blue mechs being faster than all the others, speed and range are the two important factors in this game. Blue mechs had the best speed to make up for less range. They no longer need to be faster.

So say 'I think shortening the range was a mistake and has led to an imbalance' rather than 'b-b-b-but you said missiles would be medium range'. It's hard to get a productive discussion going if you base it on information that is months out of date.

If you feel green mechs are not strong enough, and can provide some reasoning for that, say so. If you feel green mechs are not strong enough because a few months ago someone may have said they would be stronger, there's not really much to talk about is there? Obviously as they've watched the game, the LOS advantage of missiles has stood out to them as being stronger than they originally expected, and they're working to counteract it.

Personally I think the 'things devs actually said' to 'things players infer devs were trying to say' ratio tends to be very poor in most games anyway, so the least you could do is provide a quote if you really want to argue your case that way.

28 Reply by Dan

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Re: Missiles, shortest range and lowest damage?

Alexadar wrote:
Dan wrote:
Alexadar wrote:

Ap bonus and 6 weapon slots makes tyranos good machine for defence and support operations.
But gropho with his useless shield bonus is apparently broken.

I think Im playing different game than you Alexadar, yesterday I check Tyrannos had 4 missile slots.
If you dont know how to use a shield on a gropho it doesnt mean that gropho is broken smile

anyway from what I remember missiles supposed to be high alpha but low rof => medium dps

6 weapon slots: 4 missile, and 2 turret slots nub.

Give me here effective pvp shield build, if you so smart

I thought this topic was about missiles, isnt it? All shield fits are corporate secrecy.
My spidy senses detected useless topic

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29 Reply by Purgatory (edited by Purgatory 2011-07-28 18:45:55)

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Re: Missiles, shortest range and lowest damage?

Karism wrote:

Just doing a few calculations of Kain vs Tyrannos, can do one for artermis if needed.

All are done with lvl 10 extension and t4 equpment in mind

Kain

Max Locking (without farlock) = 693.825m (220x1.5x1.45x1.45)

Self amped 523.9m (310x1.3x1.15) falloff = about 100m (though i personally try never to shoot within falloff if i can help it.

Remote boosted 612.912625m (310x1.3x1.15x1.15x1.15) falloff about 100m

Pros

- High Damage for medium/long range weapons.
- Kain is Fast, letting it somewhat dictate distance in long range fights against other races.

Cons

- Some Ap Drain, about 144ap per alpha.
- Los problems

Tyrannos

Max Locking (without farlock) = 725.3625m (230x1.5x1.45x1.45)

Self Amped 649.8765m [Heat-iX)(315x1.2x1.3x1.15x1.15)
              557.037m [Ballistic Chemo] (270x1.2x1.15x1.15)

Remote boosted (needs farlock) 859.46167125m (Heat-ix) (315x1.2x1.3x1.15x1.15)
                     736.6814325m (Ballistic Chemo) (270x1.2x1.3x1.15x1.15x1.15x1.15)

Pros

- Less Los issues (can use hills, some plants etc for cover while still hitting the enemy.)
- Insignificant AP usage.
- Has access to an agent ammo for increased range.

Cons

- Less DPS than Turret Races.
- Slower Speed, which makes catching enemies hard if they run or try to dictate range.
- Tyrranos has only 3 leg slots, meaning that if it wants to fit for speed and be able to rep itself, it can only resist one type of weak resist, usually this is kinetic, meaning that it is somewhat weak to other missile bots. (this is ignoring the usage of sheilds for now.)

Do say if one of my calculations are wrong, or where i could add a pro or con.

Pros  - Has access to an agent ammo for increased range.

This isn't a pro, all weapon types have access to agent ammo for increased range.

You've calculated the tyrannos using +20% range agent ammo so you could write big numbers vs the kain which you calculated with only normal ammo. Seems highly biased in favour of trying to make the tyrannos look better than the kain by leaving out major factors.

30 Reply by Karism (edited by Karism 2011-07-28 19:06:24)

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Re: Missiles, shortest range and lowest damage?

Purgatory wrote:

This isn't a pro, all weapon types have access to agent ammo for increased range.

Wrong, Lasers have crypto (+20%), missiles have heat-ix (315m).

Only Agent ammo magnetics get is udc (same range) and magnadart (-75% range)

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Re: Missiles, shortest range and lowest damage?

Karism wrote:
Purgatory wrote:

This isn't a pro, all weapon types have access to agent ammo for increased range.

Wrong, Lasers have crypto, missiles have heat-ix], which both give +20% extra range.

Only Agent ammo magnetics get is udc (same range) and magnadart (-75% ranage)

If that's the case then this is yet another game flaw that's only going to cause balance issues when people like you try to use agent ammo as an excuse to balance the game.

32 Reply by Purgatory (edited by Purgatory 2011-07-28 18:53:00)

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Re: Missiles, shortest range and lowest damage?

I want to make one thing clear - Blue mech needs to lose their extra speed. All 3 factions now have a long range setup, and a short range setup. Yet apparently only blue should be given the extra speed needed to be able to actually put the short range setup to use.

No sane missile or laser user will be using their short range weapons in PvP. A missile user *might*, if the circumstances call for it, but only because they can switch through ammo type, and that won't be often. Any laser mech using LCL lasers will be a walking dead man.

33 Reply by Karism (edited by Karism 2011-07-28 19:09:15)

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Re: Missiles, shortest range and lowest damage?

As for being bias, i'm not, i put in normal ammo along side it, but agent ammo is an important factor in Pvp range, and i haven't left anything out in regards to kain range.

The only thing i will say is that when it gets into falloff it gets tricky, as it is something that can't really be compared well, how about optimal + 1/2 falloff as a comparable value?

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Re: Missiles, shortest range and lowest damage?

Half falloff is in range in which damage still matters enough to be worth shooting.

35 Reply by Karism (edited by Karism 2011-07-28 20:12:04)

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Re: Missiles, shortest range and lowest damage?

As i said, it's tricky.

Unless you count anything up to 99% into falloff or something as "worth shooting".

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Re: Missiles, shortest range and lowest damage?

Karism wrote:

Just doing a few calculations of Kain vs Tyrannos, can do one for artermis if needed.

All are done with lvl 10 extension and t4 equpment in mind

Kain

Max Locking (without farlock) = 693.825m (220x1.5x1.45x1.45)

Self amped 523.9m (310x1.3x1.15) falloff = about 100m (though i personally try never to shoot within falloff if i can help it.

Remote boosted 612.912625m (310x1.3x1.15x1.15x1.15) falloff about 100m

Pros

- High Damage for medium/long range weapons.
- Kain is Fast, letting it somewhat dictate distance in long range fights against other races.

Cons

- Some Ap Drain, about 144ap per alpha.
- Los problems

Tyrannos

Max Locking (without farlock) = 725.3625m (230x1.5x1.45x1.45)

Self Amped 649.8765m [Heat-iX)(315x1.2x1.3x1.15x1.15)
              557.037m [Ballistic Chemo] (270x1.2x1.15x1.15)

Remote boosted (needs farlock) 859.46167125m (Heat-ix) (315x1.2x1.3x1.15x1.15)
                     736.6814325m (Ballistic Chemo) (270x1.2x1.3x1.15x1.15x1.15x1.15)

Pros

- Less Los issues (can use hills, some plants etc for cover while still hitting the enemy.)
- Insignificant AP usage.
- Has access to an agent ammo for increased range.
- Can change to short/long range without requiring to re-equip, as it is based off ammo, and not weapon.

Cons

- Less DPS than Turret Races.
- Slower Speed, which makes catching enemies hard if they run or try to dictate range.
- Tyrranos has only 3 leg slots, meaning that if it wants to fit for speed and be able to rep itself, it can only resist one type of weak resist, usually this is kinetic, meaning that it is somewhat weak to other missile bots. (this is ignoring the usage of sheilds for now.)

Do say if one of my calculations are wrong, or where i could add a pro or con.

isn't their a significant hp bonus too for greens. kains have little more hp than assaults.

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Re: Missiles, shortest range and lowest damage?

My gropho finds this thread amusing.

How many can counter a full missile fleet with anything turrets have to offer? roll

38 Reply by Purgatory (edited by Purgatory 2011-08-05 16:10:51)

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Re: Missiles, shortest range and lowest damage?

Anything he may have done with regards to fleets of T4 grophos doesn't exactly count as valid considering past events, in which losing means very little.

It should hold true though, because that past is what Siddy is no doubt refering to.

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Re: Missiles, shortest range and lowest damage?

What has changed to missiles since that "past" that will make all missile fleet do worse now?

All missile fleet in current terrain settings is superior to mixed or all turret fleets by miles.
Something i predicted since beta.

And something that will change only with terrains that allow turrets to actually use the longer range they have.

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Re: Missiles, shortest range and lowest damage?

I something disagree with Siddy: missile fleet not superior over turret bot types. Pelistian just well balanced.
Sometimes i want more damage for rockets, but in global picture pelistians not best, not bad. They are fine now.
Even gropho swarm have counterfleet. (no, not another gropho swarm btw big_smile))

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Re: Missiles, shortest range and lowest damage?

Alexadar wrote:

I something disagree with Siddy: missile fleet not superior over turret bot types. Pelistian just well balanced.
Sometimes i want more damage for rockets, but in global picture pelistians not best, not bad. They are fine now.
Even gropho swarm have counterfleet. (no, not another gropho swarm btw big_smile))

In current terrain settings, nothing of equal number can come even close to the pawnage the grophos can cause.

Proven oh so many times.

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Re: Missiles, shortest range and lowest damage?

Alexadar wrote:

I something disagree with Siddy: missile fleet not superior over turret bot types. Pelistian just well balanced.
Sometimes i want more damage for rockets, but in global picture pelistians not best, not bad. They are fine now.
Even gropho swarm have counterfleet. (no, not another gropho swarm btw big_smile))


Please share your wisdom with the unwashed masses. I'm a noob myself with a limited mindest ... and i can't imagine what a decent counter could be. Don't forget: a legitimise counter shouldn't consist of twice the numbers of robots ...

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Re: Missiles, shortest range and lowest damage?

Error wrote:
Alexadar wrote:

I something disagree with Siddy: missile fleet not superior over turret bot types. Pelistian just well balanced.
Sometimes i want more damage for rockets, but in global picture pelistians not best, not bad. They are fine now.
Even gropho swarm have counterfleet. (no, not another gropho swarm btw big_smile))


Please share your wisdom with the unwashed masses. I'm a noob myself with a limited mindest ... and i can't imagine what a decent counter could be. Don't forget: a legitimise counter shouldn't consist of twice the numbers of robots ...

It is 3 times the number of grophos!

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Re: Missiles, shortest range and lowest damage?

the counter is :

[# of opposing grophos] + [1 gropho]

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Re: Missiles, shortest range and lowest damage?

Exact amount of very fast kamikaze ewars may help big_smile

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Re: Missiles, shortest range and lowest damage?

counter is Mesmer + Zenith

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Re: Missiles, shortest range and lowest damage?

If there isonly grophos in enemy group, then everything heavy shielded wll work.

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48 Reply by Norrdec (edited by Norrdec 2011-08-09 12:17:06)

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Re: Missiles, shortest range and lowest damage?

If there are only grophos, the counter is 1/3 of the numbers in vagabonds with ecms, ictus for the shields and one arkhe with mg for damage big_smile

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Re: Missiles, shortest range and lowest damage?

Norrdec wrote:

If there are only grophos, the counter is 1/3 of the numbers in vagabonds with ecms, ictus for the shields and one arkhe with mg for damage big_smile

hmm, wouldn't that work against nearly everything?
Probably because its a mixed group of all possible ewars... you wouldn't even need the arkhe (1 AC on each vaga)

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Re: Missiles, shortest range and lowest damage?

well you dont need the ictus either. Still you wanted a group that is not x+1 grophos and is not twice the numbers... so you got it ^_^

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