1 Topic by Purgatory (edited by Purgatory 2011-07-16 10:42:48)

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Topic: Reducing gropho accumulator maximum would be a mistake.

Tyrannos base accumulator: 2000
Base recharge time: 420

= 4.76 ap/sec base recharge

Gropho base accumulator: 3250
Base recharge time: 720

= 4.5 ap/sec base recharge

Note that this does not factor in accumulator bonuses of any kind. This tyrannos has a better base recharge rate than the gropho, it's the same for all heavy mechs vs mechs.

A dev mentioned giving the gropho an AP recharge rate bonus, instead of shield bonus, so it goes in line with the other pelistal bots. He also said to compensate for this he would nerf the max accumulator of the gropho. That would be really bad, the gropho already has a poorer base ap/sec than the tyrannos, and it will be even worse again if they nerf gropho max accumulator.

Grophos max accumulator is at about where it needs to be, it's directly in line with the other heavy mechs vs their mech counterparts, lowering the max accumulator will only create an imbalance.

Switch gropho shield bonus for the accumulator recharge rate bonus yes, but do not nerf the max accumulator - You're just removing one bonus, to replace it with another, then partially negating that bonus by lowering the recharge rate anyway.

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Re: Reducing gropho accumulator maximum would be a mistake.

Purgatory wrote:

Switch gropho shield bonus for the accumulator recharge rate bonus yes, but do not nerf the max accumulator - You're just removing one bonus, to replace it with another, then partially negating that bonus by lowering the recharge rate anyway.

Dev Calvin wrote:

Well, we give a nice round bonus of 5%, so you get 40-50% bonus for an average awesome pilot. This would pretty much render the Gropho indestructible, so to balance it properly, we would have to add 2.334265324523452134% per level. To make it look better, we add the nice round 5% and change the accumulator to whatever, it will always be a nice looking number. We are by no means nullifying it.

That's pretty elementary, Watson.

I think this has already been addressed. Good point about the tyrannos already having better accum than the gropho though.

3 Reply by Purgatory (edited by Purgatory 2011-07-16 11:05:39)

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Re: Reducing gropho accumulator maximum would be a mistake.

Mammoth wrote:
Purgatory wrote:

Switch gropho shield bonus for the accumulator recharge rate bonus yes, but do not nerf the max accumulator - You're just removing one bonus, to replace it with another, then partially negating that bonus by lowering the recharge rate anyway.

Dev Calvin wrote:

Well, we give a nice round bonus of 5%, so you get 40-50% bonus for an average awesome pilot. This would pretty much render the Gropho indestructible, so to balance it properly, we would have to add 2.334265324523452134% per level. To make it look better, we add the nice round 5% and change the accumulator to whatever, it will always be a nice looking number. We are by no means nullifying it.

That's pretty elementary, Watson.

I think this has already been addressed. Good point about the tyrannos already having better accum than the gropho though.

So what we're going to end up with is a tyrannos who can perma run a medium T4 repairer, but a gropho that can't. (unless he has level 10 in all extensions)

Even if they leave the grophos accumulator alone, the tyrannos will still have a better recharge rate than the gropho, if they nerf the gropho accumulator, the problem just gets even worse.

As for the almost perma running 2 repairers on the test server, i'm sure they've made some kind of mistake, or they're running it with level 10 advanced robotics, level 10 energy management, level 10 accumulator expansion, and maybe even an ap recharge module.

The bottom line is we're going to end up with a tyrannos with a much better recharge rate than the gropho, creating a huge imbalance.

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Re: Reducing gropho accumulator maximum would be a mistake.

Good point Purgatory. I told this earlier on teh forums too.
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5 Reply by Annihilator (edited by Annihilator 2011-07-16 15:05:38)

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Re: Reducing gropho accumulator maximum would be a mistake.

a gropho with recharge bonus on maxed extension could permarun three medium repair modules...

like a Tyrannos atm too - with the difference that the Gropho has:
30% more hitpoints to buffer,
1 more headslot for additional repair tuning
1 more legslot for ERP / injector /accumulator / Resist
50% more offensive potential
60% more Buffer Accumulator

and unlike other heavy mechs - it doesnt really need more AP for its two more weapons.
if you compare it to other heavy mechs, the difference in average consumed AP increase vs. average recharged AP is way better when you look at Tyrannos<>Gropho then Artemis<>Seth

also, smaller accumulator can have advantages too, especially with a recharge bonus on it.

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6 Reply by Shaedys (edited by Shaedys 2011-07-16 16:27:22)

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Re: Reducing gropho accumulator maximum would be a mistake.

Purgatory wrote:

Switch gropho shield bonus for the accumulator recharge rate bonus yes, but do not nerf the max accumulator - You're just removing one bonus, to replace it with another, then partially negating that bonus by lowering the recharge rate anyway.

The idea was not to give it a bonus of 3.357234-ish % per level, but instead make a nice rounded number.
Because they thought that giving it a 5% bonus would be overpowered.

I would also contest that with an extra accumulator recharger you could make up for that difference in recharge that currently exists completely, making the Gropho have a better recharge then the Tyrannos with rechargers.

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Re: Reducing gropho accumulator maximum would be a mistake.

Annihilator wrote:

a gropho with recharge bonus on maxed extension could permarun three medium repair modules...

like a Tyrannos atm too - with the difference that the Gropho has:
30% more hitpoints to buffer,
1 more headslot for additional repair tuning
1 more legslot for ERP / injector /accumulator / Resist
50% more offensive potential
60% more Buffer Accumulator

and unlike other heavy mechs - it doesnt really need more AP for its two more weapons.
if you compare it to other heavy mechs, the difference in average consumed AP increase vs. average recharged AP is way better when you look at Tyrannos<>Gropho then Artemis<>Seth

also, smaller accumulator can have advantages too, especially with a recharge bonus on it.

So a dev tested the new recharge bonus gropho on the test server with all level 10 extensions and it could NOT run even 2 medium repairers, and now you're here saying it can run 3? Don't post incorrect information.

Small accumulator is somehow better with a recharge bonus? Your logic is failing hard once again.

8 Reply by Purgatory (edited by Purgatory 2011-07-16 17:03:59)

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Re: Reducing gropho accumulator maximum would be a mistake.

Shaedys wrote:
Purgatory wrote:

Switch gropho shield bonus for the accumulator recharge rate bonus yes, but do not nerf the max accumulator - You're just removing one bonus, to replace it with another, then partially negating that bonus by lowering the recharge rate anyway.

The idea was not to give it a bonus of 3.357234-ish % per level, but instead make a nice rounded number.
Because they thought that giving it a 5% bonus would be overpowered.

I would also contest that with an extra accumulator recharger you could make up for that difference in recharge that currently exists completely, making the Gropho have a better recharge then the Tyrannos with rechargers.

If the accumulator is left the size it is now, then yes, a T4 recharger would give it a slightly better ap/sec recharge rate than an equally skilled tyrannos with no T4 recharger. But depending on how much the lower the max accumulator by, it's likely to still have a worse recharge rate than the tyrannos even if the gropho does have a T4 recharger. That's pretty screwed up.

Why do cheapy normal mechs have a faster recharge rate than heavy mechs? Heavy mechs are slower, more likely to be in the thick of battle than a mech, and in the case of turret mechs, they require more AP to fire the extra 2 guns.

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Re: Reducing gropho accumulator maximum would be a mistake.

with average extensions it can run 1,5 vautrell, no point in repair cycle extension

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10 Reply by Purgatory (edited by Purgatory 2011-07-16 18:00:06)

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Re: Reducing gropho accumulator maximum would be a mistake.

Annihilator wrote:

with average extensions it can run 1,5 vautrell, no point in repair cycle extension

Accelerated armor repair level 10 effectively turns 1 armor repairer into two, you get twice the repairs per cycle and only need to use 1 slot.

Even the "new" ap recharge bonus gropho wouldn't able to perma run 1 T4 medium armor repairer at level 7 accelerated armor repair. I could not do this on the new gropho without using extra AP recharge modules or investing over 150k ep into training the last of the AP skills to level 10, and then at that point it would roughly break even on the recharge rate of my current lower skilled tyrannos.

I have little doubt that they were careful with their nerfing of the grophos max accumulator, it's probably going to suck now, and there will be a lot of complaints. Anyone else think that removing one of the grophos bonuses, to replace it with ap recharge, but then nerf the max ap and thus the recharge of the gropho is really just a big nerf?

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Re: Reducing gropho accumulator maximum would be a mistake.

now it gets confusing-

you tyrannos can permarun a T4 Medium armor repair with lower extensions atm?

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12 Reply by Purgatory (edited by Purgatory 2011-07-16 19:40:53)

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Re: Reducing gropho accumulator maximum would be a mistake.

Annihilator wrote:

now it gets confusing-

you tyrannos can permarun a T4 Medium armor repair with lower extensions atm?

Tyrannos mk2 with the 8% or so higher accumulator and level 9/8/8 advanced robotics, energy management and accumulator expansion. I wouldn't exactly call 9/8/8 low level extensions. Just lower than 10/10/10.

The tyrannos has a much better AP recharge rate than the gropho. Even if you give the gropho the ap recharge bonus instead of shield, the tyrannos still has a better AP recharge rate.

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Re: Reducing gropho accumulator maximum would be a mistake.

No, if the gropho gets the AP recharge bonus and then you fit an extra recharger instead of the Tyranos then the gropho will have a much higher recharge because of the way the bonuses stack.

14 Reply by Lupus Aurelius (edited by Lupus Aurelius 2011-07-16 19:52:28)

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Re: Reducing gropho accumulator maximum would be a mistake.

Purgatory wrote:
Annihilator wrote:

a gropho with recharge bonus on maxed extension could permarun three medium repair modules...

like a Tyrannos atm too - with the difference that the Gropho has:
30% more hitpoints to buffer,
1 more headslot for additional repair tuning
1 more legslot for ERP / injector /accumulator / Resist
50% more offensive potential
60% more Buffer Accumulator

and unlike other heavy mechs - it doesnt really need more AP for its two more weapons.
if you compare it to other heavy mechs, the difference in average consumed AP increase vs. average recharged AP is way better when you look at Tyrannos<>Gropho then Artemis<>Seth

also, smaller accumulator can have advantages too, especially with a recharge bonus on it.

So a dev tested the new recharge bonus gropho on the test server with all level 10 extensions and it could NOT run even 2 medium repairers, and now you're here saying it can run 3? Don't post incorrect information.

Small accumulator is somehow better with a recharge bonus? Your logic is failing hard once again.


Could not even run 2 medium repairers!?!?!?!?!?! No bot or mech can do this currently, without either energy injectors or remote energy transfer, nor should they be able to.

Let's look at this again.  Total weapon usage of 6x T4 medium launchers running continuously, as the Gropho currently is,  is 1.43 AP per sec, with an AP recharge of 4.5 AP per sec.

That is a net gain of approx. 3 AP per sec. (unique to heavy mechs, the only one with a base recharge net gain during continuous weapon fire.)

6x T4 lasers consume 51.5 AP per sec
6x T4 EM Guns consume 35.3 AP per sec.
6x T4 Autocannons consume 1.43 AP per sec.

The higher accumulator size on the other mechs is due to their native weapon systems ( firearms are a terran introduction, not used by the natives, per the backstory).  So the Gropho has a longer recharge time, but starts off with an AP gain vs weapon fire, Seth and Mesmer have a higher AP recharge, but burn AP 25.5x to 35.5 times faster than the Gropho's missle launches.

No one has stated wht the accum or recharge on the test server was, so there is no data to run calculations.  Also, it might just work out to have the same recharge it currently has. 

Also, considering the native bonus of the Gropho, shield absorption, why would one even attempt an active armor setup with 1 repper, never mind 2?  Logically, a shield tank, with rechargers or energy injector would be the normal configuration.  Jacking up the recharge rate would serve no purpose other than making that tank even stronger, with a weapon AP burn of only 1.43 AP per sec.

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Re: Reducing gropho accumulator maximum would be a mistake.

Lupus Aurelius wrote:
Purgatory wrote:
Annihilator wrote:

a gropho with recharge bonus on maxed extension could permarun three medium repair modules...

like a Tyrannos atm too - with the difference that the Gropho has:
30% more hitpoints to buffer,
1 more headslot for additional repair tuning
1 more legslot for ERP / injector /accumulator / Resist
50% more offensive potential
60% more Buffer Accumulator

and unlike other heavy mechs - it doesnt really need more AP for its two more weapons.
if you compare it to other heavy mechs, the difference in average consumed AP increase vs. average recharged AP is way better when you look at Tyrannos<>Gropho then Artemis<>Seth

also, smaller accumulator can have advantages too, especially with a recharge bonus on it.

So a dev tested the new recharge bonus gropho on the test server with all level 10 extensions and it could NOT run even 2 medium repairers, and now you're here saying it can run 3? Don't post incorrect information.

Small accumulator is somehow better with a recharge bonus? Your logic is failing hard once again.


Could not even run 2 medium repairers!?!?!?!?!?! No bot or mech can do this currently, without either energy injectors or remote energy transfer, nor should they be able to.

Let's look at this again.  Total weapon usage of 6x T4 medium launchers running continuously, as the Gropho currently is,  is 1.43 AP per sec, with an AP recharge of 4.5 AP per sec.

That is a net gain of approx. 3 AP per sec. (unique to heavy mechs, the only one with a base recharge net gain during continuous weapon fire.)

6x T4 lasers consume 51.5 AP per sec
6x T4 EM Guns consume 35.3 AP per sec.
6x T4 Autocannons consume 1.43 AP per sec.

The higher accumulator size on the other mechs is due to their native weapon systems ( firearms are a terran introduction, not used by the natives, per the backstory).  So the Gropho has a longer recharge time, but starts off with an AP gain vs weapon fire, Seth and Mesmer have a higher AP recharge, but burn AP 25.5x to 35.5 times faster than the Gropho's missle launches.

No one has stated wht the accum or recharge on the test server was, so there is no data to run calculations.  Also, it might just work out to have the same recharge it currently has. 

Also, considering the native bonus of the Gropho, shield absorption, why would one even attempt an active armor setup with 1 repper, never mind 2?  Logically, a shield tank, with rechargers or energy injector would be the normal configuration.  Jacking up the recharge rate would serve no purpose other than making that tank even stronger, with a weapon AP burn of only 1.43 AP per sec.

Because they're taking away the shield bonus on Gropho? Btw, with highest accumulator size, highest recharge, extra leg/head slot, highest hp, and new found resist bonus, Seth is the new fotm. Lemon will be happy. Triple repped AC Seth coming near you, prepare to be bulldozed. lol

Or did you think it can be broken by pathetic missile dps? Or blue mechs, being naturally weak against yellow, stand a chance, especially against the resist bonus on largest hp pool?

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Re: Reducing gropho accumulator maximum would be a mistake.

Shaedys wrote:

No, if the gropho gets the AP recharge bonus and then you fit an extra recharger instead of the Tyranos then the gropho will have a much higher recharge because of the way the bonuses stack.

The recharge bonus from equippable items do not stack directly with bonuses gained from skills, instead it just flat out multiplies the current recharge rate by the new reduction in time. If you have a 100 ap recharge rate (just an example) and stick on a 17.5% T4 recharger, your 100 second recharge rate is reduced to 82.5 seconds.

17 Reply by Purgatory (edited by Purgatory 2011-07-16 21:16:20)

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Re: Reducing gropho accumulator maximum would be a mistake.

Lupus Aurelius wrote:
Purgatory wrote:
Annihilator wrote:

a gropho with recharge bonus on maxed extension could permarun three medium repair modules...

like a Tyrannos atm too - with the difference that the Gropho has:
30% more hitpoints to buffer,
1 more headslot for additional repair tuning
1 more legslot for ERP / injector /accumulator / Resist
50% more offensive potential
60% more Buffer Accumulator

and unlike other heavy mechs - it doesnt really need more AP for its two more weapons.
if you compare it to other heavy mechs, the difference in average consumed AP increase vs. average recharged AP is way better when you look at Tyrannos<>Gropho then Artemis<>Seth

also, smaller accumulator can have advantages too, especially with a recharge bonus on it.

So a dev tested the new recharge bonus gropho on the test server with all level 10 extensions and it could NOT run even 2 medium repairers, and now you're here saying it can run 3? Don't post incorrect information.

Small accumulator is somehow better with a recharge bonus? Your logic is failing hard once again.


Could not even run 2 medium repairers!?!?!?!?!?! No bot or mech can do this currently, without either energy injectors or remote energy transfer, nor should they be able to.

Let's look at this again.  Total weapon usage of 6x T4 medium launchers running continuously, as the Gropho currently is,  is 1.43 AP per sec, with an AP recharge of 4.5 AP per sec.

That is a net gain of approx. 3 AP per sec. (unique to heavy mechs, the only one with a base recharge net gain during continuous weapon fire.)

6x T4 lasers consume 51.5 AP per sec
6x T4 EM Guns consume 35.3 AP per sec.
6x T4 Autocannons consume 1.43 AP per sec.

The higher accumulator size on the other mechs is due to their native weapon systems ( firearms are a terran introduction, not used by the natives, per the backstory).  So the Gropho has a longer recharge time, but starts off with an AP gain vs weapon fire, Seth and Mesmer have a higher AP recharge, but burn AP 25.5x to 35.5 times faster than the Gropho's missle launches.

No one has stated wht the accum or recharge on the test server was, so there is no data to run calculations.  Also, it might just work out to have the same recharge it currently has. 

Also, considering the native bonus of the Gropho, shield absorption, why would one even attempt an active armor setup with 1 repper, never mind 2?  Logically, a shield tank, with rechargers or energy injector would be the normal configuration.  Jacking up the recharge rate would serve no purpose other than making that tank even stronger, with a weapon AP burn of only 1.43 AP per sec.

Oh boy, if they've removed the shield bonus and replaced it with an AP recharge bonus and then nerfed the max accumulator so much that it equates to being exactly the same as it is now, then wow, people are going to be pissed. If that is the case they should have just said "we're removing grophos shield bonus, gropho only gets 2 bonuses now".

You're complaining missiles use little ap compared to turrets? Ok then, let's increase missile ap usage to be the same as turrets, but also increase missile dps 50%.

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Re: Reducing gropho accumulator maximum would be a mistake.

Purgatory wrote:

Oh boy, if they've removed the shield bonus and replaced it with an AP recharge bonus and then nerfed the max accumulator so much that it equates to being exactly the same as it is now, then wow, people are going to be pissed. If that is the case they should have just said "we're removing grophos shield bonus, gropho only gets 2 bonuses now".

You're complaining missiles use little ap compared to turrets? Ok then, let's increase missile ap usage to be the same as turrets, but also increase missile dps 50%.

Here's me posting on this a bit ago:

Shaedys wrote:
Purgatory wrote:

Switch gropho shield bonus for the accumulator recharge rate bonus yes, but do not nerf the max accumulator - You're just removing one bonus, to replace it with another, then partially negating that bonus by lowering the recharge rate anyway.

The idea was not to give it a bonus of 3.357234-ish % per level, but instead make a nice rounded number.
Because they thought that giving it a 5% bonus would be overpowered.

I would also contest that with an extra accumulator recharger you could make up for that difference in recharge that currently exists completely, making the Gropho have a better recharge then the Tyrannos with rechargers.

Here's dev calvins post on this:

DEV Calvin wrote:
Crispy Bacon wrote:

Wait, so for the Seth and the Gropho you're changing its 3rd bonus, then nullifying that bonus by compensating for the new bonus?  Why not just remove the 3rd bonus then?

Well, we give a nice round bonus of 5%, so you get 40-50% bonus for an average awesome pilot. This would pretty much render the Gropho indestructible, so to balance it properly, we would have to add 2.334265324523452134% per level. To make it look better, we add the nice round 5% and change the accumulator to whatever, it will always be a nice looking number. We are by no means nullifying it.

That's pretty elementary, Watson.

This concern has already been answered.

19 Reply by Purgatory (edited by Purgatory 2011-07-16 21:48:39)

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Re: Reducing gropho accumulator maximum would be a mistake.

Let's put it this way, tyrannos already has a better recharge rate than the new gropho with its % per level ap recharge bonus. If they nerf gropho max accumulator by 20% (example), then the tyrannos now has a 25%+ better recharge rate than gropho. Even if you try to make up for it on the gropho with a T4 recharger, the unequipped tyrannos still has a better recharge rate, that's totally ***.

Seth at level 10 extensions is going to have +10% crit chance, 50% increase on armor resists, and 50% damage.

Gropho at level 10 extensions is going to have 50% decrease in lock time, 50% damage, and a 50% ap recharge reduction, that recharge buff sounds ok on paper, but when you factor in that gropho accumulator was nerfed, all this patch becomes is a huge nerf to gropho and boost to seth.

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Re: Reducing gropho accumulator maximum would be a mistake.

you know what? resist on the seth would be a very bad thing too.

and the whole topic here is based on something that probably wont ever happen....

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21 Reply by Purgatory (edited by Purgatory 2011-07-16 23:01:58)

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Re: Reducing gropho accumulator maximum would be a mistake.

Annihilator wrote:

you know what? resist on the seth would be a very bad thing too.

and the whole topic here is based on something that probably wont ever happen....

The change to bonuses? It's dead certain they are happening in the next patch.

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Re: Reducing gropho accumulator maximum would be a mistake.

I look forward to it. Seths will be practically indestructible with the right fit, obliterating everything inside 1km range on flat terrain. Nom nom. lol

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Re: Reducing gropho accumulator maximum would be a mistake.

I'd be careful with the histrionics. If you don't keep it sensible and logical, they may just decide the appropriate solution is to nerf tyrannos recharge.

24 Reply by Purgatory (edited by Purgatory 2011-07-18 09:11:15)

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Re: Reducing gropho accumulator maximum would be a mistake.

Mammoth wrote:

I'd be careful with the histrionics. If you don't keep it sensible and logical, they may just decide the appropriate solution is to nerf tyrannos recharge.

Actually, the appropiate solution, the one that will deal with a lot of this whining, is to BOOST, not nerf, but boost the accumulator recharge time of all heavy mechs. It's really *** the fact that all mechs have a faster AP recharge rate than their heavy mech counterparts. If you use turrets you're even more screwed because we all know turrets use a lot of AP and a heavy mech has 50% more weapons to fit than a mech but recharges less ap/second?

420 sec recharge rate on mechs, 720 on heavies, they should reduce the 720 second recharge to something like 600 seconds.

I'm going to repeat what I just said incase it didn't sink it. Heavy mechs have 50% more weapons to fit than their cheap mech cousins and yet their AP recharge/sec is actually lower than the mechs.

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Re: Reducing gropho accumulator maximum would be a mistake.

yeah, purgatory... the game resolves around unfit robots....

here is a whining topic about how bad it would be to reduce the grophos accumulator size
another topic is whining about how bad it is that grophos can fire their weapon without any reasonable AP costs.

Tyrannos is one of the most flexible Mechs ingame - it can fit turrets, no matter how much AP they use, it can fit Neuts, it can fit longrange missile, it can work with shields, but could also fit increadible Repair-tank.

The gropho was once called "making ictus useless because it can fit more neuts and has a better shield bonus"... wait, wasn't that you?

now to the nitpicking:
420s is no "rate", its a time...

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