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Re: Territory warfare brianstorms (Something to fight for.....)

You older players are unintentionally missing the point...

We don't need end-game massive money sinks for 50+ member corps.  We need to encourage small 1-5 man groups to move out to beta.  If the current trial and/or new members wanted to join a large corporation and move to the betas, they would have done so already.  We need to provide a conduit for small groups of buddies to be effective - not just targets - in the betas.  If the betas look good to people trying out the game, then they will stay.  NPCs and POSes aside, there needs to be massive mechanics changes to increase the retention rate for new players.

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Re: Territory warfare brianstorms (Something to fight for.....)

Gut Punch wrote:

You older players are unintentionally missing the point...

We don't need end-game massive money sinks for 50+ member corps.  We need to encourage small 1-5 man groups to move out to beta.  If the current trial and/or new members wanted to join a large corporation and move to the betas, they would have done so already.  We need to provide a conduit for small groups of buddies to be effective - not just targets - in the betas.  If the betas look good to people trying out the game, then they will stay.  NPCs and POSes aside, there needs to be massive mechanics changes to increase the retention rate for new players.


You have hit it right there.

Encouraging smaller groups to get to beta would be great, and fun. I would like smaller sized outposts to own, and control points to be added.

Good stuff gut.

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Re: Territory warfare brianstorms (Something to fight for.....)

Gut Punch wrote:

You older players are unintentionally missing the point...

We don't need end-game massive money sinks for 50+ member corps.  We need to encourage small 1-5 man groups to move out to beta.  If the current trial and/or new members wanted to join a large corporation and move to the betas, they would have done so already.  We need to provide a conduit for small groups of buddies to be effective - not just targets - in the betas.  If the betas look good to people trying out the game, then they will stay.  NPCs and POSes aside, there needs to be massive mechanics changes to increase the retention rate for new players.

just not enough people really for that atm, thats the problem. ....im gonna say it too, same thing in eve, there were a few select corps that roamed 0.0 and that was it, the rest of the population was empire space .5+, i know I was there at the begginning, it took time, needless to say there was about 4k people at that time. I agree though, but you look at current situation not many small 1-5 gangs will roam, blob warfare has really taken its toll on anything worth a damn, the more you bring the higher your odds at winning are, that is the motto of the game right now. Its impossible to solo roam, as my earlier thread states, you either find nothing, find the unlucky or get blobed. I can think maybe changing mechanics might help but I have no idea what to do atm. Perhaps make one big island and make it corp warfare, where you can declare war on another corp and only go to that island to kill each other...not sure, that would only turn into a band wagon of declaring war on such corp and gang banging the, something larger corps could take advantage of from the smaller corps.
I really think we need something a corporation has to bust their *** for to achieve, station building, outpost building, repairing, etc. Or perhaps supplying such outpost with energy crystals to keep the op running. That would surely get corps involved to work together, specially if such corp owned an outpost they would be the only ones to provide the energy for, make energy non tradable. Owning an op right now is not exaclty OMFG WE HAVE AN OP...

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Re: Territory warfare brianstorms (Something to fight for.....)

GLiMPSE wrote:
Syndic wrote:

Disagree completely.

The game needs more PVE features, more fluff features that will give players something to do on their own and in their own time. At the moment the choice is grind plazma, grind ore, or look for artifacts. Thats a very poor choice - and its already showing that its not keeping people in-game. What numbers came back after the expansion, have mostly left again.

POS only caters to the existing players who are involved in the game. Lets face it, to a new player Perpetuum is just plain BORING.

Whats the point of doing all that stuff if there's nothing for them to build towards? Theirs got to be a light at the end of a tunnel... no matter what 'fluff' you add it's going to be considered a 'grind' but we need to answer is the 'what am i grinding for' question.

Heavies are relatively easily attainable and after that there's nothing new and shiney to build or own.

I have to disagree, there is a semblance of the end-game there, that is enough to present a "carrot" to the new players. Also, none of these new players will come into the game knowing everything and every short-cut, some of them will take months if not years to go through the kernel grind & tech build up.

The key thing is adding something that doesn't make perpetuum boring. Artifact scanning is just 1 feature, but overall to the new player the game is still a boring game. The PVE is lackluster at best, and everything revolves around grinding this/that. Some fun-content is needed ASAP, otherwise it'll be the same 100-200 of us chasing tails in Beta/Gamma whatever for the next few months/years until something fun comes out to play.

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Re: Territory warfare brianstorms (Something to fight for.....)

Gut Punch wrote:

You older players are unintentionally missing the point...

We don't need end-game massive money sinks for 50+ member corps.  We need to encourage small 1-5 man groups to move out to beta.  If the current trial and/or new members wanted to join a large corporation and move to the betas, they would have done so already.  We need to provide a conduit for small groups of buddies to be effective - not just targets - in the betas.  If the betas look good to people trying out the game, then they will stay.  NPCs and POSes aside, there needs to be massive mechanics changes to increase the retention rate for new players.

thats actually a good post: there must be something, that a small group can get, to have a big enough advantage to survive against an already established opponent. While at the same time, this advantage must not be granted to said overwhelming faction that already has other advantages.

more or less a "handicap" system which is logical, not artifical, and hopefully not exploitable by splitting up in sub-groups.

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Re: Territory warfare brianstorms (Something to fight for.....)

Annihilator wrote:
Gut Punch wrote:

You older players are unintentionally missing the point...

We don't need end-game massive money sinks for 50+ member corps.  We need to encourage small 1-5 man groups to move out to beta.  If the current trial and/or new members wanted to join a large corporation and move to the betas, they would have done so already.  We need to provide a conduit for small groups of buddies to be effective - not just targets - in the betas.  If the betas look good to people trying out the game, then they will stay.  NPCs and POSes aside, there needs to be massive mechanics changes to increase the retention rate for new players.

thats actually a good post: there must be something, that a small group can get, to have a big enough advantage to survive against an already established opponent. While at the same time, this advantage must not be granted to said overwhelming faction that already has other advantages.

more or less a "handicap" system which is logical, not artifical, and hopefully not exploitable by splitting up in sub-groups.

Stuff like:

  • Increasing the difference between light bots, assaults, and mechs so that smaller bots actually have a place in PvP.  It shouldn't be a guarenteed kill if you are bigger.  More speed, smaller hit size, etc.

  • This game needs a "escape" mechanism.  EVE had the Warp To/Warp Scrambler feature(s) which allowed for people to disengage from a fight.  This does put the burden on the attacker to be quick but allows for the person being chased to screw up.

  • Reducing travel time between point A and B.  Highways are nice.  But they don't do the trick because they are fixed travel routes.  There are plenty of reasons not to use the beaten path.

  • Anything related to reducing/increasing visbility cost too much in the way of fitting and accumulator to be effective on anything smaller than a mech.

These would be mechanics changes in the game.  Other things related to money making and structures in the betas are topics to be covered as well.

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Re: Territory warfare brianstorms (Something to fight for.....)

Gut Punch wrote:
Annihilator wrote:
Gut Punch wrote:

You older players are unintentionally missing the point...

We don't need end-game massive money sinks for 50+ member corps.  We need to encourage small 1-5 man groups to move out to beta.  If the current trial and/or new members wanted to join a large corporation and move to the betas, they would have done so already.  We need to provide a conduit for small groups of buddies to be effective - not just targets - in the betas.  If the betas look good to people trying out the game, then they will stay.  NPCs and POSes aside, there needs to be massive mechanics changes to increase the retention rate for new players.

thats actually a good post: there must be something, that a small group can get, to have a big enough advantage to survive against an already established opponent. While at the same time, this advantage must not be granted to said overwhelming faction that already has other advantages.

more or less a "handicap" system which is logical, not artifical, and hopefully not exploitable by splitting up in sub-groups.

Stuff like:

  • Increasing the difference between light bots, assaults, and mechs so that smaller bots actually have a place in PvP.  It shouldn't be a guarenteed kill if you are bigger.  More speed, smaller hit size, etc.

  • This game needs a "escape" mechanism.  EVE had the Warp To/Warp Scrambler feature(s) which allowed for people to disengage from a fight.  This does put the burden on the attacker to be quick but allows for the person being chased to screw up.

  • Reducing travel time between point A and B.  Highways are nice.  But they don't do the trick because they are fixed travel routes.  There are plenty of reasons not to use the beaten path.

  • Anything related to reducing/increasing visbility cost too much in the way of fitting and accumulator to be effective on anything smaller than a mech.

These would be mechanics changes in the game.  Other things related to money making and structures in the betas are topics to be covered as well.

the light bots are fine, in large numbers they can do damage, light ew can make a huge difference with alot of things, maybe not so much intrusions but be surprised what they can do in small gangs. They already fast enough the size is fine, without good precision most cant hit light to save their lives.

Again this is not eve online, there should not be warp out tactics. Thats one reason I like this game cause ocne your in the *** you either day or run. Its battlefield war, not space war, you can say omg Im outnumbered im gonna magically use my super hero powers and warp away.....stop quoting eve, this game does not need to turn more into eve.

Travel times are fine, its not like it takes a long time to get to point a and b, perhaps for those doing pve i can be a pain but its no different than any other game, quest so go here and come back. Travel times are fine, Im fine with taking 1 hour-2 hours the most to roam every island with a frame on a mech...that is not exactly a long time to travel lol.

Agree on last post, the modules should be light/assualt friendly when it comes to reactor, cpu cost etc.

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Re: Territory warfare brianstorms (Something to fight for.....)

TeamBETAalpha wrote:

....

Travel times are fine, its not like it takes a long time to get to point a and b, perhaps for those doing pve i can be a pain but its no different than any other game, quest so go here and come back. Travel times are fine, Im fine with taking 1 hour-2 hours the most to roam every island with a frame on a mech...that is not exactly a long time to travel lol.

Agree on last post, the modules should be light/assualt friendly when it comes to reactor, cpu cost etc.

Red:
Travel times are not ok if you DONT have a LWF equipped. It took me almost an hour to explore one new alpha island with an assault without lwf, starting at old alpha terminal.

Green:
The AP costs of masking modules should be based on size of the robot.

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34 Reply by Gut Punch (edited by Gut Punch 2011-06-03 18:47:00)

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Re: Territory warfare brianstorms (Something to fight for.....)

TeamBETAalpha wrote:
Gut Punch wrote:
Annihilator wrote:

thats actually a good post: there must be something, that a small group can get, to have a big enough advantage to survive against an already established opponent. While at the same time, this advantage must not be granted to said overwhelming faction that already has other advantages.

more or less a "handicap" system which is logical, not artifical, and hopefully not exploitable by splitting up in sub-groups.

Stuff like:

  • Increasing the difference between light bots, assaults, and mechs so that smaller bots actually have a place in PvP.  It shouldn't be a guarenteed kill if you are bigger.  More speed, smaller hit size, etc.

  • This game needs a "escape" mechanism.  EVE had the Warp To/Warp Scrambler feature(s) which allowed for people to disengage from a fight.  This does put the burden on the attacker to be quick but allows for the person being chased to screw up.

  • Reducing travel time between point A and B.  Highways are nice.  But they don't do the trick because they are fixed travel routes.  There are plenty of reasons not to use the beaten path.

  • Anything related to reducing/increasing visbility cost too much in the way of fitting and accumulator to be effective on anything smaller than a mech.

These would be mechanics changes in the game.  Other things related to money making and structures in the betas are topics to be covered as well.

the light bots are fine, in large numbers they can do damage, light ew can make a huge difference with alot of things, maybe not so much intrusions but be surprised what they can do in small gangs. They already fast enough the size is fine, without good precision most cant hit light to save their lives.

Again this is not eve online, there should not be warp out tactics. Thats one reason I like this game cause ocne your in the *** you either day or run. Its battlefield war, not space war, you can say omg Im outnumbered im gonna magically use my super hero powers and warp away.....stop quoting eve, this game does not need to turn more into eve.

Travel times are fine, its not like it takes a long time to get to point a and b, perhaps for those doing pve i can be a pain but its no different than any other game, quest so go here and come back. Travel times are fine, Im fine with taking 1 hour-2 hours the most to roam every island with a frame on a mech...that is not exactly a long time to travel lol.

Agree on last post, the modules should be light/assualt friendly when it comes to reactor, cpu cost etc.

The lack of an escape mechanism is the impetus for why everyone pushes towards the heaviest mech and stays there.  Take away the EVE references and talk about the possibility of disengagement and what it takes to make sure that doesn't happen.  The tactics change dramatically when you force people to guarentee the kill by either closing to the target, decreasing your side, or slowing down instead of just kite around at 500m with the biggest guns.  Call it a smoke screen, radar scrambing, jump jets, whatever.  Something else needs to occur to make the kill happen other than I have the biggest mech with the longest reach weapons that will still hit small HP targets.

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Re: Territory warfare brianstorms (Something to fight for.....)

always wanted ecm to have secondary effect: scramble enemies lock on myself, not all locks he has up.

and that without raising aggro flag.

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Re: Territory warfare brianstorms (Something to fight for.....)

ER PPCs anyone?  Oh wait, lets not bring the mechwarrior lawyers down on us. tongue

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Re: Territory warfare brianstorms (Something to fight for.....)

Everyone seems to be in actual agreement here; that the game needs BOTH PVE and PVP improvements.

PVE will help raise the population and PVP will help retain the current and new population.

What it seems like we can't fully agree on is which needs to come first.

It truely is the chicken and the egg, because the game needs and will benefit from both.

I'm just of the opinion that the devs have added more PVE with the new islands, but haven't done anything with PVP Motivation, not combat itself; and that having a strong active Vetern base is going to be needed to support new players (Some don't need support of course).

As for motivating small groups to go to beta, really there isn't any reason other then for the sheer combat pleasure of it, which is enough for many players but as Anni has said here and I agree'd with many times, the Fun to Grind ratio for solo players is too extreme, and even for small corps as FOOM don't want to just 'throw' bots away.

There is also the PVP learning curve for new players, you have to blow up a lot of bots to get good, regardless of your equipment. Many new players don't realize or don't have the patience to just go out and lose bots, this is where being part of a med to large corporation actually HELPS new players, by providing light bots and mods and encouraging them to use them out there in beta, and be targets for FOOM type players. This is what I've been trying to say about needing to encourage and motivate corportations; not to eliminate small beta groups, but to provide more reasonable expectations for there to be small groups out there willing to lose bots.

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Re: Territory warfare brianstorms (Something to fight for.....)

Grim Faust wrote:

I think some sort of POS' would get people on Beta's if they had a function. If they did something for you that you can't do on alpha. Maybe they mine for you? Maybe they offer you better refine rates? Quicker factories? Who knows. Something though, that you can't get elsewhere.

How will that open up PvP? Simple, allow them to be put offline by enemies. If your enemies dont like you, they can go suppress your structures by attacking them ANYTIME they want. No silly intrustions or schedules, ANYTIME. This will open up PvP in my mind because the element of surprise will be there. You can cause trouble when it's convenient for your corp. You'll have to watch your own structures as well. It will make holding Beta grounds more interactive. You could even add some sort of bonus' for offlining someones structures. What that could be is debatable.

Either way, it would give everyone something to do. You'd have incentive to be on beta. You'd have incentive to roam and fight other POS' and defenders. You'd have incentive to guard and you'd have incentive of successfully offlining other players structures.

fully agree with you there

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Re: Territory warfare brianstorms (Something to fight for.....)

prob not right place for this but tossing it out there anyway.

keep reading people talking about encourageing smaller groups to go to beta. way i see it most small corps have no reason or incentive to go to beta.

other then high end kernals eription and better growth rates on norg whats realy out there thats worth the risk?

maybe if they had a chance at the pvp they would go. perhaps something like corp bonus you have 2 guys on a beta  you get 100% bonuse 4 guys 50% bonuse and 6 guys 25% anything over 6 it starts going neg to discourage people from blobing

just an idea prob would't work but would def give a small corp an advantage on beta if there getting a nice bonuse and the corp who shows up with 20 people is takeing neg bonus thos 6 guys would have a chance against that blob.

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Re: Territory warfare brianstorms (Something to fight for.....)

interference already exists, and artillery is going to be implemented soon. No reason to give smaller groups yet another built in bonus against blobs. Beta is incredibly inhospitable as it is... and as it's supposed to be.

What we need is player owned structures.

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Re: Territory warfare brianstorms (Something to fight for.....)

Guns nButter wrote:

interference already exists, and artillery is going to be implemented soon. No reason to give smaller groups yet another built in bonus against blobs. Beta is incredibly inhospitable as it is... and as it's supposed to be.

What we need is player owned structures.


every time i see soembody say that its always the people already on beta and what that tells me it has nothing to do with makeing game grow it has everything to do with makeing your epeens grow.

you guys don't want pos's to make game and pvp grow you want them to make your epeens grow so can come on fourms and say we own x amount of pos you only own y amount our epeens are bigger then your epeens yada yada yada

pos does nothing to promote the game to new players solves nothing in the game except the egos of thos already on beta.

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Re: Territory warfare brianstorms (Something to fight for.....)

Dadar wrote:
Guns nButter wrote:

interference already exists, and artillery is going to be implemented soon. No reason to give smaller groups yet another built in bonus against blobs. Beta is incredibly inhospitable as it is... and as it's supposed to be.

What we need is player owned structures.


every time i see soembody say that its always the people already on beta and what that tells me it has nothing to do with makeing game grow it has everything to do with makeing your epeens grow.

you guys don't want pos's to make game and pvp grow you want them to make your epeens grow so can come on fourms and say we own x amount of pos you only own y amount our epeens are bigger then your epeens yada yada yada

pos does nothing to promote the game to new players solves nothing in the game except the egos of thos already on beta.

I haven't even set foot on a beta island yet. Try again.

POS gives the largest end-game corps (of which I am most certainly not a member) something to do. The only way small corps could fit in is if they hide. It's just a numbers game. The spartans had the luxury of unit collision, whereas we do not. Thus superior numbers and gear will typically win, just as it's supposed to be. Artillery will help curb the effectiveness of the mindless zerg when it gets introduced, but anyone with superior tactics will win anyways.

The game does NOT need a combat mechanic that turns individuals or small squads into superman. Lemon has already proven he can do that well enough on his own.

tl,dr: Small corps cannot contend with large ORGANIZED corps in open combat.

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Re: Territory warfare brianstorms (Something to fight for.....)

Guns nButter wrote:

tl,dr: Small corps cannot contend with large ORGANIZED corps in open combat.

POS won't change this, in fact it will probably make it worse, as large corps now have something valuable to lose and can't afford to allow any non-allies loose on the beta island. And any invading PVP coming for a POS will also be too large for a small roam to tackle. It only makes sense if the POS is on a gamma island, where the large corp can deploy small combat groups to the beta-II islands as scouts and buffers, while keeping a main force on gamma for pos defense.

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Re: Territory warfare brianstorms (Something to fight for.....)

True. Frankly small corps just don't really have anywhere to hide, the landmasses are too small. In EVE it was possible to hide in a wormhole or deeeeep 0.0, but here... not possible, yet. If there was significantly more landmass that the largest corps just couldn't effectively control all of, I think it might work.

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Re: Territory warfare brianstorms (Something to fight for.....)

I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing. If you mean small corps owning POS, that's a conundrum, because making it possible for a small group to defend a POS would make it impossible to destroy if it was guarded by a large force. This is just universally true for small corps trying to 'live' on beta. I was talking about the other thing here, which was encourging more small combat groups to engage on beta, corps like 62nd and FOOM making a game out of 'roaming'. More land mass would not be good for that, as hiding is the last thing PVP corps want. It may encourage more solo or ninja mining, reducing the likihood of getting ganked, but that's all more mass is going to encourage, gank squads and not small group combats.

Until of course the population density increases, then more land will be required. We don't need the sq. acres of a gamma island, just the defensability of a corp limiting access, the island doesn't even need resources, just an all-in-one lvl 3 POS that only the owener can dock at.

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Re: Territory warfare brianstorms (Something to fight for.....)

Mmm.... you do make a point. The roaming game was definitely fun in eve, can't wait till I have time to try here. Yeah, I guess small corps will take up the "roaming" aspect while large corps will take the POS approach.