Re: Perpetuum's world is about to change...

Arachnix wrote:
Gordon Gekko wrote:

Btw: ill quit the day this game forces me to get up at 5am just because a enemy signed up for a intrusion that would lock me out of my outpost.
Been there dont that. Im not willing dedicate my life to PO.

Well thats your problem, not mine if your not willing to do that, in my eyes evey one have to make sacrifices at least sometimes. it makes the game more fun and gives Op's a great value. and it makes the corporation see whos just leaching and who is serius to make progress.

I am glad not to be in your corp...
Seriously, you cannot say that anyone you won't get to an intrusion at uncomfortable times (let's say 4 AM) is not willing to support the corp... That's just BS!

If you want to do that, fine. But I would not rely on the majority thinking the same way as you do...

There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who understand binary and those who don't

Re: Perpetuum's world is about to change...

I think theres a difference between choosing to make the sacrifice, like in the current system and making the sacrifice because you have to like it would be if they locked peeps out of stations. The current low numbers wont be able to make that work, part of the reason norhoop was formed was giving the kind of 24 hour cover that would make that possible. The more a station is worth the greater the compelling nature of blobs.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Perpetuum's world is about to change...

The population issue is the exact reason they should go free to play!
Just charge monthly for EP accumulation, let people play for free without EP accumulation.

F2P games have HUGE populations, and while the extra players do cost a very small amount to service they bring value to the game by giving everyone else people to play with/against. Half of this game's balance issues are caused by lack of population, bring in more people with f2p and you solve that in one shot!

F2P are also ideally suited to something that this particular genre suffers badly from: the need for sheeple. PVPers in hardcore games like this like to kill people and make them lose stuff, there's never enough people willing to lose stuff as people wanting to PVP and win.

Froobs would be low-EP toons with poor skills that could provide a consistent player-base for the higher-skill paying players to farm. And since there's an huge enormous F2P base out there, it would be nearly never-ending.

It would be a win win all around.
(Gets dark in her without my torch!)

Re: Perpetuum's world is about to change...

Legedric Warstrike wrote:
Arachnix wrote:
Gordon Gekko wrote:

Btw: ill quit the day this game forces me to get up at 5am just because a enemy signed up for a intrusion that would lock me out of my outpost.
Been there dont that. Im not willing dedicate my life to PO.

Well thats your problem, not mine if your not willing to do that, in my eyes evey one have to make sacrifices at least sometimes. it makes the game more fun and gives Op's a great value. and it makes the corporation see whos just leaching and who is serius to make progress.

I am glad not to be in your corp...
Seriously, you cannot say that anyone you won't get to an intrusion at uncomfortable times (let's say 4 AM) is not willing to support the corp... That's just BS!

If you want to do that, fine. But I would not rely on the majority thinking the same way as you do...

i didnt and i dont think. that how i play, im not in charge of any way but i play my game like i wanna play it and then the turists can sit on the bench.

Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they pissed me off.

Re: Perpetuum's world is about to change...

Lets get back on topic, this is what i mean with "intrusions need to be fixed".

Devs please give me(us) some feedback.

Re: Perpetuum's world is about to change...

Okay make it Easyer for the people then.. only the Owners can use the factory etc, makes it worth alot anyways smile and then the people that wanna sleep and give the stations away.. go back to alpha to produce :>

Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they pissed me off.

32 (edited by Exomorph 2011-04-18 15:56:39)

Re: Perpetuum's world is about to change...

Arachnix wrote:

Okay make it Easyer for the people then.. only the Owners can use the factory etc, makes it worth alot anyways smile and then the people that wanna sleep and give the stations away.. go back to alpha to produce :>

This will work if owner CAN SET rights to other corp to use factory etc in his OP. You just didn't think about many other corps who are in alliance too, who help defend the OP and island too, but don't own OP.

33 (edited by Arachnix 2011-04-18 18:07:59)

Re: Perpetuum's world is about to change...

well if only 3 cops can use an island... there is no use to have more to difend. tadaa if the other corpses dont get anything from it why stay on beta ? .. kinda blob problem solved... Right there. i think it's a good solution to stop everything thay put in other mechanics to stop blobing when there is only someting simple like restrict and Deny others acces. then everyone ether have to produce for them or get the station big_smile 2 ways of doing it, and more fun pvp smile

Edit: Gives more room for Tactics and not zerg pvp smile

Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they pissed me off.

Re: Perpetuum's world is about to change...

.... so many different topics, but then the thread is about changes...

F2P - No thank you. tens of hundreds of players (and accounts with 20+ alts) running around wasting resources while beta corps camp the gates killing what amounts to arkhe swarms until they all quit, and all PVP is blobs of 300 light bots swarming around because the F2P players can't get more EP to get into bigger bots.

Mining - Game balance. Industry players didn't stop mining because of the acutal mining experience, they stopped because the market for the material dried up. PVP players with a mining alt stopped because they couldn't mine and PVP at the same time anymore. Allowing AFK mining doesn't help the industry player, it only supports a solo-vertically-integrated system where a player with 3 alts can be their own corporation.

In fact the specialized industry player gains more from having reduced resources and the current system now rewards players for spending EP in this area. When a corporation can have 20 AFK players in argano's out mining an endless epitron field there is no reason to have dedicated miners. Only when the supply is limited do those skills that increase 'yeild' per cycle become important. Case in point, this weekend I mined a titanium field with a termis and got about 10 million ores. If I was specialized in Extensive Mining and Extensive Titanium mining, I would have gotten 40% more yeild for the same time (10x2), 14 million ores. A significant advantage. And with industrial 8 and in a Riveler (instead of I 5 for a termis) I would have finished faster and gotten another 15% yield (5% bonus per level) for 17+ Million ores vs. about 7.5 Million ore for a combat alt with industry 1 in an Argano. I could have had my combat alt out there in an argano, but each cycle would have 'wasted' ore.

I think I just said L2P for mining, but the point is without reduced resources, dedicated industry players are not required.

Re: Perpetuum's world is about to change...

Arga wrote:

I think I just said L2P for mining, but the point is without reduced resources, dedicated industry players are not required.

I dont think thats true. if i pvp everyday and say i lose 3-4 bots ( mechs + t3 - t4 fitting ) the production cant keep up with that if there is restricted ammount or resources. maybe for a Pve/industrial corp but never a pvp corporation. And if i lose 3-4 bot you can count the 3-10 i got im my squad. that is a lot of Material.

Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they pissed me off.

Re: Perpetuum's world is about to change...

Arachnix wrote:
Arga wrote:

I think I just said L2P for mining, but the point is without reduced resources, dedicated industry players are not required.

I dont think thats true. if i pvp everyday and say i lose 3-4 bots ( mechs + t3 - t4 fitting ) the production cant keep up with that if there is restricted ammount or resources. maybe for a Pve/industrial corp but never a pvp corporation. And if i lose 3-4 bot you can count the 3-10 i got im my squad. that is a lot of Material.

Pvp loses shouldn't dictate resoures. I lose 4 bots per day so the game needs to give me 4 bots worth of resources. It should be, we can produce 2 bots per day, don't lose them all in 1 place.

Want to lose more bots but ore is the bottleneck, get more miners or get your existing miners better equipment, or farm nic to buy ore.

There is a symbiotic relationship between industry and pvp, the only way this isn't true is if bots are free. Pvp is centered around limited resources, like outposts and now raw material. Sounds like a good reason to fight right there.

Re: Perpetuum's world is about to change...

Youre saying that there is no need for resources that support players that actually play the game. WTF?
And btw even if there were enough resources you would still spend four of five hours farming/mining.

Arga wrote:

..get more miners..

Yes we had (and tbh still have) dedicated miners (YES REAL CAREBEARS).
.. most of em quit because the patch pissed them of.

Now what? Find more desperate miners? You cant be serious arga...

Re: Perpetuum's world is about to change...

Gordon Gekko wrote:

Youre saying that there is no need for resources that support players that actually play the game. WTF?
And btw even if there were enough resources you would still spend four of five hours farming/mining.

Arga wrote:

..get more miners..

Yes we had (and tbh still have) dedicated miners (YES REAL CAREBEARS).
.. most of em quit because the patch pissed them of.

Now what? Find more desperate miners? You cant be serious arga...

Way to take that out of context, here's the whole quote again.

Want to lose more bots but ore is the bottleneck, get more miners or get your existing miners better equipment, or farm nic to buy ore.

Yes, I'm serious, if you can't produce enough bots to support your current rate of PVP loses, then find a way to make more or lose less. Not a difficult concept and it works for tightening up the whole manufacturing process of refining and factory production. Or you can try to come on the forums and try to convince 'somebody' that reverting the minerals back to the former levels will magically fix everything wrong with the game.

Now, wasn't that productive? No, it wasn't.

Re: Perpetuum's world is about to change...

Allowing AFK mining doesn't help the industry player, it only supports a solo-vertically-integrated system where a player with 3 alts can be their own corporation.

you mean where a single player with 6 alts can support a whole PVP corp with masses of minerals with his nerd-multiboxing enviroment?

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Perpetuum's world is about to change...

Well, yes them too smile

Although a 6box miner setup would be very busy and overall yeild would be lower, but it would still be alot of ore. There's probably some sort of logarithmic graph with yeild vs miner count somewhere based on cycle count per tile.

Re: Perpetuum's world is about to change...

Arga wrote:

Way to take that out of context, here's the whole quote again.

Want to lose more bots but ore is the bottleneck, get more miners or get your existing miners better equipment, or farm nic to buy ore.

Yes, I'm serious, if you can't produce enough bots to support your current rate of PVP loses, then find a way to make more or lose less. Not a difficult concept and it works for tightening up the whole manufacturing process of refining and factory production. Or you can try to come on the forums and try to convince 'somebody' that reverting the minerals back to the former levels will magically fix everything wrong with the game.

Now, wasn't that productive? No, it wasn't.

You just dont get it. Your argumentation is that this game is supposed to be boring for everyone. Reminder: Its a game, people want to have fun.
Right now you need four miners to support one pvp guy.
Thats not something i pull out of my ***, ive got all the numbers and calculated it.

There would be no need to multibox six miners if one PvE guy could support one PvP guy.

42 (edited by Arga 2011-04-19 07:18:01)

Re: Perpetuum's world is about to change...

To correct you, it takes an entire production team to keep even 1 PVP player equipt. That's miners, refiners, prototypers, and manufactors. Unless your 4 miners are selling ore to buy bots and modules.

And yes you are pulling this 4 to 1 ratio out of your ***, because the ability to lose bots is endless, not exactly endless, I think Glimpse has the record for most bots destroyed per hour.

If you want to show numbers, the only relevant stats are how many fully equipt bots can your entire production team produce weekly. I could care less how fast you lose them. And then show me that your entire production team is specialized and focused on the jobs they are doing.

Corporations that refine at level 1 facilities, because hauling is too much work, are wasting miner effort. Factory lines at level 1 facilities because manufactor can only load 6 CT's are wasting miner effort. CT's running at less then 60% because no one is farming higher level encoders are wasting miner effort. Running a line at less without maxing out material reduction extensions is ... yes, wasting miner effort.

Don't tell me I 'don't get it' when your intentionally focusing on one short sighted portion of the entire process to revert a mineral nerf that IS NOT THE PROBELM.

And instead of having a discussion about real issues, I'm wasting miner effort, ere my effort, fighting off a troll.

Re: Perpetuum's world is about to change...

No *** sherlock!
I know the production costs and prices for every single item this game has.
And im taking EVERYTHING into account.

*edit* Offensive. - DEV Zoom
...and start to calculate it yourself.

And btw there are some more points on my list. Im not talking about "reverting alpha" but about unnerfing it. And thats not something I need thats something this game needs.

Gordon Gekko wrote:

Buff mined amount, unnerf alpha (to get PvE guys back), unnerf plants, make everything cheaper by 1/3, fix assignments (money, rewards), add harder assignments

Re: Perpetuum's world is about to change...

Arga, give up man! Never wrestle with pigs, you just get muddy and they enjoy it wink

Re: Perpetuum's world is about to change...

Jelan wrote:

Arga, give up man! Never wrestle with pigs, you just get muddy and they enjoy it wink

A lesson learned last night after returning from the bar with one in tow?

Re: Perpetuum's world is about to change...

I've been out mining the last couple of nights and there's plenty of minerals on alpha for a solo miner, but no, I couldn't mine AFK, I acutally had to actively retarget and think; which was a pleasant break from running transport missions.

The mineral field I was on could have easily been depleted in 2 hours with 4 Rivelers. I did about 5% of the field and got about .8 M ore with only the bot bonus's. With the proper extensions, at level 5 only, would have been 20% more, roughly 1M ore. The entire field then will produce 20 M ore in about 2.5-3 hours.

While scanning I also found another field of a different ore within 3000 m of the previous field, I estimate that field would produce about 42 M ore in the same amount of time with 4 Rivlers.

* I specify Rivilers because it requires a dedicated industrialist to reach lvl 8 to even drive it

The next fields are likely to be further, but there's no spot more than 4000 km from a teleport on alpha.

Mineral fields now are larger with fewer cycles per stack. The total maxium amount of ore per field was reduced as was the recovery time, resulting in overall less ore per Island; with Beta levels being higher.

My personal experience mining pre patch on alpha -

I didn't need to area geoscan because my corp had already found the ore spots. I didn't need to tile scan because the whole thing was red. I would roll up in an Argano, target a spot, and empty my cargo about every 10 mins (Later with a termis it was every 5 minutes). I would sit there for hours and watch a movie or two, changing targets 3 or 4 times. I didn't put any skills into yeild, just enough EP to keep the termis AP stable. The remaining EP I spent on production lines.

The volume of ore we were gathering on alpha made 'effciency' meaningless in the production of assualts and ewar (no one was making mechs at the time).

As we progressed into Mech production, most of our miners also moved into Termis's, as well as our PVP players' mining alts. We still could not deplete a 'red' field of material on alpha; but only our dedicated production characters produced mechs, off spec producers like me just did ammo and charges.

We moved all operations to Beta Islands, including mining. Here we ran into logistical issues with combat coverage, roaming pressure based on time zones. Miners weren't able to mine, and there was nothing else for them to do, so they stopped logging in. We moved islands, which made it safer, but by that time the exodus from the game had already begun, and we just ran out of miners and production stopped.

At no time did we ever have any type of challenge with the minerals, just the logistics of getting them.

There is now a challenge with mining, the need to supervise your bot while mining, but finding and recovering the ore is still just a matter of logistics.

The current global amount of ore is about to change with the addition of 6 new Islands. There's a difference between a Challenge and Risk, mining should be challenging just as PVP is risky. Mining directors are going to establish the most productive means of gathering ore, previously that was putting as many bodies on the field as possible without regard to skill, now just putting bodies on the field is wasting ore and is less productive then putting fewer skilled agents on it. I also appreciate the fact that I don't have to sit there for 6 hours a night all week anymore because the field still has ore.

Yes, it is more difficult now to make NIC at mining, but as pointed out in the 'cast and by Syndic, people want to buy ore. You just have to dedicate your character to the task to make it productive; which is absolutely no different than any other role in the game.

Re: Perpetuum's world is about to change...

I am glutton for punishment smile

You don't tow pigs, you go trolling for them with corn tied to the bumper...

Oh, I got distracted at the end with the pigs...

With the new islands, and new ore, the only shortages will come from poor mining logistics.

PS. Nutty is my hero!

48 (edited by Gordon Gekko 2011-04-19 23:02:43)

Re: Perpetuum's world is about to change...

Your example doesnt provide any solid data but a lots of estimates.
Just because i can (i ignore tax for this one):

Lets say you mine 211 imentium per second (not impressive but not bad either)
If you spend three hours mining (just mining, no travel time, no hauling, not changing spots)
thats 2278800 ores imentium.
Current price on the market is 1.71 NIC .. lets say you sell everything for 1.8
Thats: 4 101 840 NIC .. if you find someone who buys it.

Now substract the 5020 charges you needed. 21 NIC if you buy them on the market:
105 420NIC

Lets just say youve got 4 000 000 NIC left and want to fit a intakt as tackle:
ltes buy on the market: wink

Intakt 889000
T4 demob: 949177.06
T4 LWF 1649900
T2 Range extender: 450000
T3 Sensor amp: 999999

Total 4 938 076 NIC *dang*

Just for *** an giggles .. production prices:

Intakt: 736 294 NIC
T4 demob: 873 195 NIC
T4 LWF: 502 387 NIC
Range extender (t2 has to be enough): 358 930 NIC
Sensor amp (T3 is enough): 448 050 NIC

Total: 2 918 856 NIC

But then again you need a incubator (noralgis) for that T4 stuff, harvester charges, have to mine more then just one ore etc etc.
And heh, you didnt even move your termis, sequer, riveler, lithus or w/e.

4:1 is what you get if you take everything into acocunt

Re: Perpetuum's world is about to change...

Logistics are fine and all, but the point you're missing is that for most of us... including those who left for the most part, I believe, want the prenerf mineral spawns back. Do I enjoy mining? No, I do not. I mine to support my pvp habit. Do I like pvp? Yes, and no. I'd like it a bit more, and the mining as well, with the old minerals.

I know all about how much you get from alpha island ores. A riveler will still pull surprising amounts of ore from Alpha when you have +120% mined amount increase. The perception is that there isn't much there, and the constant need to change targets every 21 seconds is the part we have a gripe with. I can barely manage to artifcat scan on my other toon and mine at the same time.

I mined a spot on alpha completely out of immentium the other day, and got just over 700U from it. I spent roughly 8 hours doing it. During that time it's all I did, so that I could afford to pvp.

And on top of that it's not even just that mining is bad. The arguement here is that no matter what you're doing it takes 4 times as much "work" to be able to have that one or two hours of fun. You'd have to run hours and hours of transport missions to buy a single Artemis and fit it out. You'd also have to farm mobs for hours and hours to get the plasma to buy one and fit it out.

Most of the time I'm the guy on TS going "Fuggit, let's do it," so I die more then I should. If you want to do the math on how much nic the going rate of 700U of immentium is, then figure what it costs for an Artemis with mostly t3 and t4 fittings and tell me does this not sound like too much work?

Granted, alot of those issues are partially offset by being in a good corp. But even then it still boils down to, who's going to do all the "work". There's a bit much of that involved to do the better parts of the game.

I would have much rather have seen them nerf the cycle time of miners, or nerf the amount you mine, but leave the spawns the way they were. The point im trying to get across is the time to depletion of a single tile is way to short. Even spreading out your lasers doesn't lengthen it by much.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not asking for handouts, and boo-hooing because "it's too hard." I expect to have to work for the things that I want in a game like this, or even in almost all the games I play. What I am saying is the "work" / "fun" ratio is off.

Re: Perpetuum's world is about to change...

I think 4:1 ratio isn't bad. I probably have an even higher ratio than that, just because the lack of pvp available. If there is no pvp I do missions or do artifacts scans or play spin-the-robot in a terminal somewhere.

Gordon Gekko wrote:

If you spend three hours mining...thats: 4 101 840 NIC .. if you find someone who buys it.

Is this on alpha?

If you can make more than 1 million NIC per hour mining, what is the fuss about?

"...playing a game is the voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles."
Bernard Suits, 1978