1 (edited by Jeremey 2011-04-19 16:14:42)

Topic: Perpetuum usability fixes and necessary balance changes

There are my notes from first three days playing release version of the game (I've played during beta too).

Feel free to comment or suggest your thoughts about usability. (Please post in this topic about usability only)

Please also remember that bad interface not equals hardcoredness of the game: the game UI can be pleasant to interact with the game itself remaining hardcore and intricane.

USABILITY

1. If no targets are locked, first locked target must become primary, but in that case all shooting guns must become inactive (to prevent occasional shooting friends or plants). It is needed to minimize pointless and boring doubleclicking on next target in targeting computer when previous target is destroyed.

2. Doubleclicking on non-locked entity in "Landmarks" window should not make it primary target if there is already one. If there is no primary or that entity is locked, it must become primary target.

3. Make item icons visually smaller in all inventory windows or give us alternative inventory view. Currently inventory is cluttered and almost unusable when there is large number of items.

4. For each container give us filter search in it with filter string (like in market).

5. When market window is opened with something entered in filter string and player presses "Market information" button on some item in his inventory, market filter string must be cleared. Currently if market window is opened with something entered in filter string, "market infomation" for any item in inventory doesn't work.

6. There must be "All items" category in market, located first in list and selected by default. It is needed for player to be able to just open market window, enter filter string and see all found items - not just robots, as currently.

7. When viewing extensions outside of terminal, their NIC install price and EP cost must be displayed. It is needed for player to be able to plan (in his mind) his extension installation even outside terminal - not guess how some extension WILL cost.

8. Remove "Assignment completed" popup window and replace it with self-removing background notification text.

9. Private converstaion chat dialogs must work as unnamed private rooms: there must be list who is in conversation. If someone closes private chat, he must leave that room list for other participants. It is needed to be able directly signal participants when you leaved conversation. Currently if I close private chat, other participants don't know that and if they write something to me, that private chat appears again in opened channel list.

10. Name of player(agent) near each message in chat/conversation must be the link to his agent profile, like in channel list. That is needed to not search for interesting player in large channel list (or in global search in case of private convo, which doesn't have channel list at all).

11. It must be possible to invite other players in private conversations.

12. Double-clicking player in channel list MUST open his agent profile, NOT private conversation. Nuff said.

13. Remove Squad name setting window when creating a squad, squad invintation confirmation, and also "player joined the squad" notification for joined player.

14. Add buyer/seller name to market transactions window.

15. There must be no "Repair robot" or "Repair" menu item for robot or item if it is at full health. Menu cluttering is bad.

16. "Recycle" and "Destroy" in item context menu must be visually maximally separated from "Sell", "Repair" and "Market information" items. Currently they are mixed with them.

17. When any container or inventory is focused, Ctrl+A must select all items in it.

18. Robot Equip window must have button "strip ammo", which places ammo in bot cargohold.

19. When drag'n'dropping items to "Cargo" button in "Equip" window, they must be placed in robot cargo.

20. In game world, weapon module pop-up menu must have "Ammo/charge for all" menu item, which allows to select and reload ammo for all weapons of that type (after all, we already have "reload all" button).

21. If module is active and player clicked on it to stop, he must be able to click on it second time to cancel the "stopping" of the module.

BALANCE

1. There must be no "destroy item" option when outside of terminal, because such an option allows a victim in pvp to instantly destroy all valuable loot before death or just before he is attacked. Currently prohibiting item destroy during combat doesn't help: victim can destroy valuable item when it saw on radar that enemies are approaching.

2. If player is logged off and his robot is attacked after that, it must receive X minute aggro timer (10 mins, for example) during which his bot will not disappear and can be destroyed.

3. Artifacts must not be instanced for player - their spawns must be shared among all players. That way it will be possible to hunt artifact diggers and then dig what they searched for. Or to search for the same artifact together with corpmate (or girl) - that way it will boost social cooperation a bit.

2 (edited by ot0_m0t0 2011-04-16 22:05:26)

Re: Perpetuum usability fixes and necessary balance changes

Signed! Do it all of it.

Also: 1. There must be no "destroy item" option when outside of terminal, because such an option allows a victim in pvp to instantly destroy all valuable loot before death or just before he is attacked. Currently prohibiting item destroy during combat doesn't help: victim can destroy valuable item when it saw on radar that enemies are approaching.

This was done allready, you cant destroy stuff if aggro-ed, and its sometimes annoying when NPC farming.

3 (edited by Jeremey 2011-04-16 22:09:00)

Re: Perpetuum usability fixes and necessary balance changes

ot0_m0t0 wrote:

This was done allready, you cant destroy stuff if aggro-ed, and its sometimes annoying when NPC farming.

I know, but you must not be able to destroy stuff when outside of terminal at all - only to drop it in some temporary container with small timeout (to not load the server much).
Because victim can destroy valuable stuff before he is aggroed (when he saw someone approaching on radar, or when his convoy died but he personally is not yet aggroed).

4 (edited by Alexander 2011-04-16 22:14:45)

Re: Perpetuum usability fixes and necessary balance changes

One comment I have is that anyone targeting using the mouse is already failing to control their robot. It's a lot easier to use the R and F keys to Primary and Secondary lock a selected target.

However if people wish to fail but not fail so much I guess a change to the double click system isn't too day. I suggest in your post you note that all locking mechanics discussed are the double click mechanics and using primary and secondary keys are not effected. It would be very annoying to primary lock everything I target when I don't have other targets current locked.

The Game

5 (edited by Jeremey 2011-04-16 22:22:52)

Re: Perpetuum usability fixes and necessary balance changes

Alexander wrote:

One comment I have is that anyone targeting using the mouse is already failing to control their robot. It's a lot easier to use the R and F keys to Primary and Secondary lock a selected target.

I'm using these keys too. My thoughts is not about mouse locking at all - you can apply them to using keyboard too.

What I mean in (1) and (2) is that if you have multiple locked targets and first of them dies, second one must automatically become primary. After all, you already locked it - why you must additionally make it primary, additionally to hitting "space" (shoot)?

Re: Perpetuum usability fixes and necessary balance changes

Jeremey wrote:
Alexander wrote:

One comment I have is that anyone targeting using the mouse is already failing to control their robot. It's a lot easier to use the R and F keys to Primary and Secondary lock a selected target.

I'm using these keys too. My thoughts is not about mouse locking at all - you can apply them to using keyboard too.

What I mean in (1) and (2) is that if you have multiple locked targets and first dies, second one must automatically become primary. After all, you already locked it - why you must additionally make it primary, despite hitting "space" (shoot)?

Because sometime you lock both enemy and friendly targets. Also why would the next target become a primary? It sounds nice an NPC made easy suggestion. You don't always lock 4 targets and kill them in the order you locked them. It just sounds like a waste of time. If you primary something and it dies you will then have to start the entire process of selecting a new target. Having other targets already locked helps but as the fight progresses you might find those are no longer valid. The other ideas are nice but the change to locking mechanics seems more for NPC'ing rather than PVP.

The Game

7 (edited by Jeremey 2011-04-16 22:41:19)

Re: Perpetuum usability fixes and necessary balance changes

Alexander wrote:

Because sometime you lock both enemy and friendly targets.

No problem - just don't shoot at the friend and make another locked enemy primary.

Alexander wrote:

Also why would the next target become a primary?

Because you locked all targets for something. If that "something" is just seeing/remrepping/boosting (or other activity which doesn't require primary target) - no problem, my proposed change doesn't interfere with that.
But if it's shooting (the most common action in PVP and PVE) - you must be able to shoot at next target - after all, it's why you locked it! If you want to shoot at another locked target (which is called by FC / more suitable by combat situation) - no problem, make it primary manually as currently.

Alexander wrote:

If you primary something and it dies you will then have to start the entire process of selecting a new target.

No problem - select it. But you can lock secondary target before primary is dead and in my case you will not have to select it as primary. It is very convenient in PVE and PVP.

Alexander wrote:

Having other targets already locked helps but as the fight progresses you might find those are no longer valid.

No problem - just unlock them as you do currently. My proposed change does not interfere with that.

Alexander wrote:

The other ideas are nice

Thanks.

Re: Perpetuum usability fixes and necessary balance changes

Good points, i agree with many of them,
except all of the Balance subsection

1. There must be no "destroy item" option when outside of terminal, because such an option allows a victim in pvp to instantly destroy all valuable loot before death or just before he is attacked. Currently prohibiting item destroy during combat doesn't help: victim can destroy valuable item when it saw on radar that enemies are approaching.

Actually, i dislike the possibility to "destroy" stuff in cargo in a sandbox game at all. Later when they implement terraforming, the annihilation of matter in cargo will cause a problem.
I'd rather see cargo "jettisoned" into a loot-can, and dissapearing loot-cans should saturate the ground with the ores the stuff was made off.

2. If player is logged off and his robot is attacked after that, it must receive X minute aggro timer (10 mins, for example) during which his bot will not disappear and can be destroyed.

this should be already in. A player robot won't disappear from terrain as long as he's locked by another player. M2S was almost "forcing" the devs to implement that wink.


the other points under that section - just disagree.
EWAR effects have a 5s cycle time, so its kinda instant
Players drop plasma? really?
Artifact scan is singleplayercontent - so leave that be.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Perpetuum usability fixes and necessary balance changes

Annihilator wrote:

Good points, i agree with many of them

Thanks.

Annihilator wrote:

this should be already in. A player robot won't disappear from terrain as long as he's locked by another player. M2S was almost "forcing" the devs to implement that wink.

It's good if it's already implemented.

Annihilator wrote:

Artifact scan is singleplayercontent - so leave that be.

No, any instancing in shared world game is bad thing, because it limits player interactions (both friendly and unfriendly).

Re: Perpetuum usability fixes and necessary balance changes

Annihilator wrote:

Players drop plasma? really?

Thanks for pointing out. Deleted from first post.

Re: Perpetuum usability fixes and necessary balance changes

actually, it would be nice if player would drop plasma... big_smile - just not from arkhes.

WTB Alexander plasma and put it into the energy-transfer station as sacrifice.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Perpetuum usability fixes and necessary balance changes

There are a number of reasons why artifacts are not shared.

First, there just isnt room on the Islands to generate enough caches to support multiple players, which ties into another issue that shared caches create points of contention. Caches are meant as a rest from PVP, not everything in the game is required to be a competition.

The ability to group hunt would trivialize searching for caches, and make it impossible for solo players to compete. 1 player at each teleport sharing vector information and 100% accurate scan could pinpoint a cache in 1 scan and dispatch the closest player to retrive it; or more likely pinpoint 2 or 3 caches.

Caching is a carebear activity and the rewards are tailored for the industrialist agent. It was designed and implemented to encourage and promote solo play and as a diversion from endless transport missions and mining.

If you want contention for caches, go artifact hunting on a beta island.

13 (edited by Campana 2011-04-18 18:24:42)

Re: Perpetuum usability fixes and necessary balance changes

A lot of good suggestions. Here's my feedback.

USABILITY

Disagree:

1. If no targets are locked, first locked target must become primary

Bad idea. Maybe you could have a toggle for allowing this option. But when you are pvping, you need to control exactly which targets are primary and which are secondary, it should NOT be automated.

2. Doubleclicking on non-locked entity in "Landmarks" window should not make it primary target if there is already one. If there is no primary or that entity is locked, it must become primary target.

Absolutely not. In pvp when your squad leader calls a primary you need to be able to lock it instantly from the landmarks list. Adding an extra click or keybind to this process is totally counterproductive.

14. Add buyer/seller name to market transactions window.

Why? I actually think making an in-game buyer/seller account with the market would be cool...the player could make that his own name or something different. Or having market transaction IDs that are random alpha numeric codes. So you can see which sellers and buyers are doing what, but not who they are.

21. If module is active and player clicked on it to stop, he must be able to click on it second time to cancel the "stopping" of the module.

Hmm, disagree. Think of this as a skill cool down. If you decide to stop using a skill, then suddenly the tactical situation changes, why should you get your cooldown suddenly removed?

Agree to all these:

3. Make item icons visually smaller in all inventory windows or give us alternative inventory view.
4. For each container give us filter search in it with filter string (like in market).
5. When market window is opened with something entered in filter string and player presses "Market information" [...] market filter string must be cleared.
8. Remove "Assignment completed" popup window
Note: there already is a notification, no need to suggest adding one
10. Name of player(agent) near each message in chat/conversation must be the link to his agent profile
12. Double-clicking player in channel list MUST open his agent profile
Remove Squad name setting window when creating a squad, squad invintation confirmation, and also "player joined the squad" notification for joined player.
15. No [...] "Repair robot" [..] for robot or item if it is at full health
16. "Recycle" and "Destroy" in item context menu must be [...] separated from "Sell", "Repair" and "Market information" items.
17. When any container or inventory is focused, Ctrl+A must select all items in it.
18. Robot Equip window must have button "strip ammo
19. When drag'n'dropping items to "Cargo" button in "Equip" window, they must be placed in robot cargo.
20. In game world, weapon module pop-up menu must have "Ammo/charge for all" menu item, which allows to select and reload ammo for all weapons of that type

Would be nice, not a priority:

7. When viewing extensions outside of terminal, their NIC install price and EP cost must be displayed. It is needed for player to be able to plan (in his mind) his extension installation even outside terminal - not guess how some extension WILL cost.

9. Private converstaion chat dialogs must work as unnamed private rooms: there must be list who is in conversation. If someone closes private chat, he must leave that room list for other participants. It is needed to be able directly signal participants when you leaved conversation. Currently if I close private chat, other participants don't know that and if they write something to me, that private chat appears again in opened channel list.

Don't see a need personally, but don't care either way:

6. There must be "All items" category in market, located first in list and selected by default. It is needed for player to be able to just open market window, enter filter string and see all found items - not just robots, as currently.

===================

BALANCE

Agree:

1. There must be no "destroy item" option when outside of terminal, because such an option allows a victim in pvp to instantly destroy all valuable loot before death or just before he is attacked. Currently prohibiting item destroy during combat doesn't help: victim can destroy valuable item when it saw on radar that enemies are approaching.

I would say allow deleting items on alpha, but put more restrictions on it on beta. However, this has already been raised and devs don't really get our point here.

Not sure:

3. Artifacts must not be instanced for player - their spawns must be shared among all players. That way it will be possible to hunt artifact diggers and then dig what they searched for. Or to search for the same artifact together with corpmate (or girl) - that way it will boost social cooperation a bit.

In two minds about this one. I actually like the relaxed pace of artifact scanning and I think it's the ONLY enjoyable PvE option currently available. Also, it's not as if you run around on beta fighting over your own alliance for them. Also consider what a pest it would be on alpha to share your artifacts. Having said that, I think it would be cool to be able to share your artifacts with your squad, plus there are probably things you could do to make artifact spawns a more competitive item...but only if you added something else to replace the type of gameplay it currently offers.

Disagree:

2. If player is logged off and his robot is attacked after that, it must receive X minute aggro timer (10 mins, for example) during which his bot will not disappear and can be destroyed.

No need - you can't log off if you are targeted (however, I'm presuming this works even if you have instant logged instead of being in the middle of safe logging, which I haven't tried).

4. If the source of EW/demobilisation effect died, the effect must instantly disappear. It is needed to give more tactical flexibility to fights.

Cycle times are pretty short, not sure this would add much tactical flexibility. For instance, last night my kain got chased by two or three ewar who were supported by another three kains a klick or so behind them. One of the ewar managed to get a demob on me, but dropped back to avoid being killed when I shot at it, then the demob ran out and I was out of range. Shortly after they again got in demob range but the ewar supporting me demobbed the enemy ewar and I got away a second time.

"...playing a game is the voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles."
Bernard Suits, 1978

14 (edited by Jeremey 2011-04-19 14:13:51)

Re: Perpetuum usability fixes and necessary balance changes

Campana wrote:

A lot of good suggestions.

Thanks.

Campana wrote:

1. If no targets are locked, first locked target must become primary

Bad idea. Maybe you could have a toggle for allowing this option. But when you are pvping, you need to control exactly which targets are primary and which are secondary, it should NOT be automated.

You already control what target is primary by shooting at it or choosing it as primary. But situation when you locked 5 targets, you kill first and there is no primary is just stupid.
I'm not suggesting to make shooting automatic (lol), I'm just suggesting that player must not point out in UI obvious things - like that if he is killed someone in battle, he wants to kill another one. If he wants to shoot at another target (not automatically selected as primary) - he can choose it as primary as it currently.

Moreover, the some game about internet spaceships works exactly that way for a reason - and that unusual behaviour in no-selecting primary in Perpetuum is one of thing that hard to learn for players from that game (including myself) - not because we're devoted fans of Eve, but because auto-selecting next target from locked targets for shooting is so natural.

Campana wrote:

2. Doubleclicking on non-locked entity in "Landmarks" window should not make it primary target if there is already one. If there is no primary or that entity is locked, it must become primary target.

Absolutely not. In pvp when your squad leader calls a primary you need to be able to lock it instantly from the landmarks list. Adding an extra click or keybind to this process is totally counterproductive.

Please re-read my suggestion: when you double-click *non-locked* target in landmarks, locking *process* starts and you lose your currently primary target (and thus stop shooting). I think squad leader wants you to "shoot primary when you'll lock it", not "stop shooting at anyone and wait when you lock someone I named".
Also, when player doesn't use keybind (newb, for example), he double-clicks in landmarks first target (locking starts), then double-click second target (locking starts) - and the second becomes primary! So in current system the primary target is the target that was locked last! That is counter-intuitive absurd for new players.

Campana wrote:

14. Add buyer/seller name to market transactions window.

Why? I actually think making an in-game buyer/seller account with the market would be cool...the player could make that his own name or something different. Or having market transaction IDs that are random alpha numeric codes. So you can see which sellers and buyers are doing what, but not who they are.

For market PVP with control buys, or to see what corps buy goods from your character at some outpost. Or to buy from some manufacturer and then contact him and suggest your own minerals (or threater him with wardec and request money).

Campana wrote:

21. If module is active and player clicked on it to stop, he must be able to click on it second time to cancel the "stopping" of the module.

Hmm, disagree. Think of this as a skill cool down. If you decide to stop using a skill, then suddenly the tactical situation changes, why should you get your cooldown suddenly removed?

I'm not telling that module must instantly become active - I just saying that it must become active after its cycle finished.

Re: Perpetuum usability fixes and necessary balance changes

Jeremey wrote:

1. If no targets are locked, first locked target must become primary

No, your idea is too complicated. We have separate buttons for primaring and secondaring. If you want to lock targets faster rebind your keyboard or mouse buttons and put primary and secondary buttons closer. Also i advice you to put closer also @switch target@ and @untarget@ buttons.

Jeremey wrote:

2. Doubleclicking on non-locked entity in "Landmarks" window should not make it primary target if there is already one. If there is no primary or that entity is locked, it must become primary target.

I vote to put it in "options" window. Can be usefull for EW

Jeremey wrote:

3. Make item icons visually smaller in all inventory windows or give us alternative inventory view. Currently inventory is cluttered and almost unusable when there is large number of items.
4. For each container give us filter search in it with filter string (like in market).

Yeah, good idea. I want to see something like windows explorer with sorting, grouping and scaling  capabilities

Jeremey wrote:

7. When viewing extensions outside of terminal, their NIC install price and EP cost must be displayed.

"Something good can be in it feel i" (Yoda)

Jeremey wrote:

12. Double-clicking player in channel list MUST open his agent profile

You will understand current functionality later. I hope...

Jeremey wrote:

14. Add buyer/seller name to market transactions window.

No. Market is confidential.

Jeremey wrote:

16. "Recycle" and "Destroy" in item context menu must be visually maximally separated from "Sell", "Repair" and "Market information" items. Currently they are mixed with them.

17. When any container or inventory is focused, Ctrl+A must select all items in it.

20. In game world, weapon module pop-up menu must have "Ammo/charge for all" menu item

Agree.

Dont want to waste time on "Ballance" section. Simply, play a bit more, then review your proposals.

16 (edited by Jeremey 2011-04-19 16:29:10)

Re: Perpetuum usability fixes and necessary balance changes

Alexadar wrote:

No, your idea is too complicated. We have separate buttons for primaring and secondaring. If you want to lock targets faster rebind your keyboard or mouse buttons and put primary and secondary buttons closer. Also i advice you to put closer also @switch target@ and @untarget@ buttons.

My idea is not complicated, it really is simplification of UI of current system.
Eve locking system does exactly the same and requires less buttons to press for it. The only difference that in Perpetuum you can shoot only one target with all guns - so, logically, perpetuum must require less buttons to press. But, contrary to that, to shoot something in perpetuum (when you locked something other), you must press more buttons! smile

Alexadar wrote:

We have separate buttons for primaring and secondaring.

So, why do they needed in the first place? Why don't just make "primary target" not an action, but selection in locked targets set (like in Eve)? With default selection when you first lock something or when something you previously selected as primary dies.

Alexadar wrote:
Jeremey wrote:

12. Double-clicking player in channel list MUST open his agent profile

You will understand current functionality later. I hope...

So, you're in outpost or terminal and see the list of people docked here. What will you commonly want to do? View the profiles of some of them, not to speak with each one! For that you do the most natural thing - click on each one's avatar/name.

Same for any chat channel. Even on this very forum if you click on my name, you will see my profile, not "Send message" window.

Alexadar wrote:
Jeremey wrote:

14. Add buyer/seller name to market transactions window.

No. Market is confidential.

And why it must be so? Why economical wars must be fought in complete blindness without any possibility of understanding who sells what and who bought what?
After all, in conventional pvp we see nicknames of eachother. Why economical competition must be any different?

Thanks for support on other items of the original list.

Re: Perpetuum usability fixes and necessary balance changes

Jeremey wrote:

You already control what target is primary by shooting at it or choosing it as primary. But situation when you locked 5 targets, you kill first and there is no primary is just stupid.

Why? When you primary someone, they know you've primaried them, because it shows on their UI, and this gives them advance warning that they're about to be fired on. So with your suggestion, if your squad leader tells you to secondary lock several targets, you could end up primarying the next one before he calls it, thus giving it advance warning. I don't want the targeting system automatically to choose a new primary target for me when my current target dies.

Jeremey wrote:

I'm just suggesting that player must not point out in UI obvious things - like that if he is killed someone in battle, he wants to kill another one.

It's not obvious. It's more tactical if the player has complete control over what is primary and what is secondary.

Jeremey wrote:

Moreover, the some game about internet spaceships works exactly that way for a reason - and that unusual behaviour in no-selecting primary in Perpetuum is one of thing that hard to learn for players from that game (including myself) - not because we're devoted fans of Eve, but because auto-selecting next target from locked targets for shooting is so natural.

I think this is one of the things Perpetuum does better than EVE.

Jeremey wrote:

Please re-read my suggestion: when you double-click *non-locked* target in landmarks, locking *process* starts and you lose your currently primary target (and thus stop shooting).

Oh I see what you're saying. Fair enough that makes sense.

Jeremey wrote:

For market PVP with control buys, or to see what corps buy goods from your character at some outpost. Or to buy from some manufacturer and then contact him and suggest your own minerals (or threater him with wardec and request money).

I could agree to a system where a corp has access to the trade logs of and outpost that it owns.

Jeremey wrote:

I'm not telling that module must instantly become active - I just saying that it must become active after its cycle finished.

So you don't want to cancel the stopping, what you actually want is to be able to click to start it again, and the command is queued, so that it starts again as soon as it's stopped. I wouldn't like this because I think it's too complicated and not something I want to have to keep track of. Your module is either off, on, starting or stopping. If you want to start it again just wait until it's finished stopping.

"...playing a game is the voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles."
Bernard Suits, 1978

Re: Perpetuum usability fixes and necessary balance changes

Jeremey wrote:

My idea is not complicated, it really is simplification of UI of current system.

Use "primary target" button always when you targeting you first target.

Jeremey wrote:

So, why do they needed in the first place? Why don't just make "primary target" not an action, but selection in locked targets set (like in Eve)? With default selection when you first lock something or when something you previously selected as primary dies.

tab+r?

Jeremey wrote:

12. Double-clicking player in channel list MUST open his agent profile
So, you're in outpost or terminal and see the list of people docked here. What will you commonly want to do?

Dont know, im almost never using terminal chat. But im commonly use doubleclick for PM


Jeremey wrote:

Why economical competition must be any different?

Maybe just for fair rules for all players? Imagine that corp A in war with corp B. Corp A will never buy items from corp B. But if market will be confidential, corp A and corp B will be equal players on financial battleground and market will be full of life.

Re: Perpetuum usability fixes and necessary balance changes

Confidential markets open more opportunity for .... I think sneakiness is the word.

Adversely, a large corporation could easily grief and destroy any solo marketeer if they could specifically target thier buy/sell orders. Currently, that same corp could manipulate specific ITEMS, but not agents.

At some point in the game, it could make sense to add more information to the market, at this point I think the market has more power being anonymous.

20 (edited by Jeremey 2011-04-19 20:54:32)

Re: Perpetuum usability fixes and necessary balance changes

Alexadar wrote:
Jeremey wrote:

My idea is not complicated, it really is simplification of UI of current system.

Use "primary target" button always when you targeting you first target.

Let's simplify it: only one button (or key) must be required to target first or following targets and to be able to shoot. And only one mouse click/doubleclick or keycombo must be required to change primary target to another target among locked targets. And if previous target is dead, you must not press anything to have some primary target - just because it's so common situation in PVE and PVP.

Not multiple presses, not multiple different keys / UI buttons. Just one button, like in some spaceship games, where newbie can login to the game and just click on his gun and then click on the NPC - and NPC will be locked and shot.

What is one of most common questions in perpetuum beta times from new people in help channel? "I have locked drone, but my guns won't shoot. What's wrong?"

Until then players here will stick to elitism and overcomplicated non-obvious controls, they will have that same constant only 140 people online. Because people who feel that basic control overcomplicated for what they must do - they will not post on the forums - they'll just quite and will play World of Tanks or Eve.

Alexadar wrote:
Jeremey wrote:

12. Double-clicking player in channel list MUST open his agent profile
So, you're in outpost or terminal and see the list of people docked here. What will you commonly want to do?

Dont know, im almost never using terminal chat. But im commonly use doubleclick for PM

It can be an option in settings then.

Alexadar wrote:
Jeremey wrote:

Why economical competition must be any different?

Maybe just for fair rules for all players? Imagine that corp A in war with corp B. Corp A will never buy items from corp B. But if market will be confidential, corp A and corp B will be equal players on financial battleground and market will be full of life.

Corp A cannot NOT buy items from corp B in non-anonymous market, because it will know origin of item only after it is bought.

Also market will be full of life especially if it's not anonymous, because market traders and profiteers will be able to "see" each other and race after each other - not trade with "anonymous client blob".

Imagine you have to PVP with unnamed players only, not able not only communicate with them, but even just differentiate one from another by nickname - is it interesting? No.
There is quite large set of players (I'm not one of them, honestly, but know several) who enjoy market speculation in place of PVP. And market non-anonymity is first requirement for them to be interested in game.

Understand that in some spaceship games there constantly are fought large-scale economic wars over different "alpha-regions" and market non-anonymity allows for participants of these wars to identify what "regions" other participants present in, what "space terminals" they control, in what portions of the market they speculate. And all that works for market life, because it gives people reason and excitement in economical competition.

Re: Perpetuum usability fixes and necessary balance changes

Jeremey wrote:

And if previous target is dead, you must not press anything to have some primary target

Yes you should. Because your primary target is displayed on that target's screen so it has to occur as a direct result of a button you press.

Jeremey wrote:

Not multiple presses, not multiple different keys / UI buttons. Just one button, like in some spaceship games, where newbie can login to the game and just click on his gun and then click on the NPC - and NPC will be locked and shot.

This is not what you're asking for above. This is already possible.

Jeremey wrote:

Until then players here will stick to elitism and overcomplicated non-obvious controls, they will have that same constant only 140 people online.

I think this is nonsense. In fact, quite the opposite - the game attracts people who like more tactical choices in their pvp. There are a lot more reasons why a game succeeds and fails and frankly the state of Perpetuum's current population has got nothing to do with some incredibly minor targeting priority issue.

"...playing a game is the voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles."
Bernard Suits, 1978

Re: Perpetuum usability fixes and necessary balance changes

Campana wrote:

No need - you can't log off if you are targeted (however, I'm presuming this works even if you have instant logged instead of being in the middle of safe logging, which I haven't tried).

This is correct on both counts.

Population graphs

<GM Synapse> please don't abuse our fresh players before blowing them up. And for god sakes, don't do that after it!

23 (edited by Jeremey 2011-04-19 23:15:09)

Re: Perpetuum usability fixes and necessary balance changes

Campana wrote:

There are a lot more reasons why a game succeeds and fails and frankly the state of Perpetuum's current population has got nothing to do with some incredibly minor targeting priority issue.

Targeting issue is just one small problem.

Why my robot stops if it encounters obstactle that is almost parallel to its movement?

Why if newbie takes any lvl1 mission without doing tutorial, he can't complete it because he have less ammo than required for mission completion (and less than mission gives / rewards)?
(Noobships in that cursed spaceship game have infinite ammo for a reason!)

Why if newbie wants to bring to another outpost both his Prometheus and Baphometh, he can't possible do that at all without training for almost a week for sequer (and he must also buy it!) to repackage both robots and move here (and lose insurance)?
(Capsules in that stupid spaceship game exist for a reason too!)

Why if newbie lost everything to npc, all he got is arkhe without any modules? How is he supposed to catch up, if he have no NIC? He must beg for NIC in "General Chat"? Or maybe in "Help"?

Why is it so that it is impossible to effectively farm NPC of any level for loot without training second alt for Sequer? (Because field container can disappear when you go to and back from terminal for sequer on the same character)

Why is it so that doing any mission is so boring because of transportation and is infinitely less profitable than staying in one place and killing constantly spawning mobs?

What is purpose of mob killing, if all what is happening is that mobs respawn almost instantly before newbie kills last mob in spawn? What newbie should feel, when all what he is accomplished in last 10 minutes instantly restores and almost tells him "You are nothing. See, all what you've done is reverted. You haven't destroyed anything".
(Missions in Eve have no respawning NPCs for a reason!)

What is purpose of alpha-islands in PVP-oriented sandboxed game, if you can do literally nothing harmful to other players here: you cannot shoot at them, you cannot take their loot, your cannot trick them into aggroing you, you cannot declare corpwar, you cannot overtrade them (because of market anonymity you will always overtrade "anonymous market" in your eyes). It's like hellokittyonline, but with robots on some biotechno planet.

And still, on the very same alpha-islands if newbie (like it happend to every single one of us) will travel in half-afk in his shining new assault robot to second outpost for lvl2 missions, he almost 100% be killed by small ewar npcs which spawn on most direct route. What must he think? "I can do nothing to other players, but I'm loosing everything to common npcs".

That's why I'm saying that with such an approach to new players Perpetuum's online will remain at 140-170 people. People like me, who played Eve for 3+ years with thousands of kills, and hardcore pvpers in m2s and other corps will endure and adapt, but what's worth in it when there is no fresh blood of carebears to kill or recruits to recruit?

Please understand me. Every one of us felt all these moments of frustration when he started to play Perpetuum (in beta or release). But large part of us just quit, another part (mostly in pvp-oriented beta island corps) took the stance "you just a newb, you must suffer. you don't understand anything". Don't be one of them. smile

Re: Perpetuum usability fixes and necessary balance changes

Jeremey wrote:
Campana wrote:

There are a lot more reasons why a game succeeds and fails and frankly the state of Perpetuum's current population has got nothing to do with some incredibly minor targeting priority issue.

Targeting issue is just one small problem.

[list of stuff]

All the stuff you have listed here is separate from what we are discussing. I am arguing with you over one particular point here, that of the primary targeting priority, because I disagree with your suggestion. You responded that "players here will stick to elitism and overcomplicated non-obvious controls, they will have that same constant only 140 people online." Some of the controls can be improved, yes, but the targeting priority is not one of them. I've given you reasons why it works better this way.

Jeremey wrote:

Please understand me. Every one of us felt all these moments of frustration when he started to play Perpetuum (in beta or release). But large part of us just quit, another part (mostly in pvp-oriented beta island corps) took the stance "you just a newb, you must suffer. you don't understand anything". Don't be one of them. smile

You're exaggerating the response you have received from me and others here. We agreed with quite a lot of your suggestions, may of which have already been made to the devs in other posts on this forum.

Just because we disagreed with some of your suggestions doesn't mean we are elitist, or that we don't understand the newbie point of view. All of us have started the game as a new player at some point, many of us within the last few months, and we all remember what it was like. Remember the game has only been out since the end of November.

"...playing a game is the voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles."
Bernard Suits, 1978

Re: Perpetuum usability fixes and necessary balance changes

Jeremey wrote:

And if previous target is dead, you must not press anything to have some primary target - just because it's so common situation in PVE and PVP.


Not in PvP mate. In PvP only you must choose next target, not system. Else-you will fail. When you will work on 4-5 targets, you will understand. Server dont know sort order, server dont know what target you need to kill first because situation can change each second.

Jeremey wrote:

What is one of most common questions in perpetuum beta times from new people in help channel? "I have locked drone, but my guns won't shoot. What's wrong?"


They have to learn. Adapt, or die. This game allows you to do numerous kinds of warstyle, but it is not short way to learn them all. Im sure many of vets still learning how to play in different situations. Thats why PO is awesome.

Jeremey wrote:

... overcomplicated non-obvious controls, they will have that same constant only 140 people...


140 was adapted. I proud to play with them.

Jeremey wrote:

Understand that in some spaceship games *words*


This is not a spaceship game. Anonymity allows market to be alive and fluent. This is a game-in-game. 

Jeremey wrote:

and market non-anonymity allows for participants of these wars to identify what "regions" other participants present in, what "space terminals" they control


They can control trade traffic, so they will know who using market.

I like current market. Its far a bit of political dramas and corporation wars.