Topic: Roaming mechanics (comments on light ewar and stealth)

From launch, I've considered light ewar to be the biggest game design problem with respect to pvp. I've never liked how they fit in the grand scheme, and recent patches have just made them worse. They're the fastest bots in the game, the most stealthy, get bonuses to ewar, and in groups have more than enough firepower. They're simply too versatile and capable.

Conversely, the bots that can effectively fit signal detectors are easily dispatched by a roaming gang. Defenders must either keep these bots at locations where they can quickly dock up or jump off the island, or have adequate defense around each one. The former means the defenders get very little coverage; the latter requires the defenders to badly outnumber the intruders, all simply to get eyes on the the roaming gang. Then what?

What do you chase them with? All things being equal, your light ewars keep pace with theirs. Of course, all things aren't equal. While players should be rewarded for sound tactics and superior equipment, the current mechanics (Velocity NEXUS in particular) make that reward near absolute. The enemy can outrun anything they don't want to fight and run down anything they do.

Outmaneuver them? We must accept that every element of game design must take into account the impact of metagaming. Outmaneuvering is a matter of speed, not surprise. And even if successful, it only works if the defenders can commit far more resources than the attackers because, in a scenario with two slower groups pursuing one faster group, the faster can choose to commit to a fight with just one pursuing group at a time.

How light ewar fit into the grand scheme needs to be completely re-thought.

I like signal detection/masking as a concept, but the implementation is quite poor. Almost all the advantages were given to the predators. In a predator/prey relationship, the prey is vigilant precisely because they predators are stealthy. Yet in this game, those that would be prey are among the most oblivious to their surroundings. Once again, defenders must jump through hoops to protect their assets. Intruders need only show up.

I see how the mechanics are designed to promote roles, interdependencies and a team concept. But the burden is much greater on those subject to attack than on the attackers. The game population simply doesn't warrant mechanics that dictate such levels of collaboration. Especially when other game mechanics, such as the assignment system, spread people out. And not all islands were blessed with concentrated ore deposits allowing miners to cluster together for mutual benefit.

I certainly don't believe the situation should completely be reversed such that defenders get all the breaks, but something needs to be done.

Re: Roaming mechanics (comments on light ewar and stealth)

Taco wrote:

From launch, I've considered light ewar to be the biggest game design problem with respect to pvp. I've never liked how they fit in the grand scheme, and recent patches have just made them worse. They're the fastest bots in the game, the most stealthy, get bonuses to ewar, and in groups have more than enough firepower. They're simply too versatile and capable.

Conversely, the bots that can effectively fit signal detectors are easily dispatched by a roaming gang. Defenders must either keep these bots at locations where they can quickly dock up or jump off the island, or have adequate defense around each one. The former means the defenders get very little coverage; the latter requires the defenders to badly outnumber the intruders, all simply to get eyes on the the roaming gang. Then what?

What do you chase them with? All things being equal, your light ewars keep pace with theirs. Of course, all things aren't equal. While players should be rewarded for sound tactics and superior equipment, the current mechanics (Velocity NEXUS in particular) make that reward near absolute. The enemy can outrun anything they don't want to fight and run down anything they do.

Outmaneuver them? We must accept that every element of game design must take into account the impact of metagaming. Outmaneuvering is a matter of speed, not surprise. And even if successful, it only works if the defenders can commit far more resources than the attackers because, in a scenario with two slower groups pursuing one faster group, the faster can choose to commit to a fight with just one pursuing group at a time.

How light ewar fit into the grand scheme needs to be completely re-thought.

I like signal detection/masking as a concept, but the implementation is quite poor. Almost all the advantages were given to the predators. In a predator/prey relationship, the prey is vigilant precisely because they predators are stealthy. Yet in this game, those that would be prey are among the most oblivious to their surroundings. Once again, defenders must jump through hoops to protect their assets. Intruders need only show up.

I see how the mechanics are designed to promote roles, interdependencies and a team concept. But the burden is much greater on those subject to attack than on the attackers. The game population simply doesn't warrant mechanics that dictate such levels of collaboration. Especially when other game mechanics, such as the assignment system, spread people out. And not all islands were blessed with concentrated ore deposits allowing miners to cluster together for mutual benefit.

I certainly don't believe the situation should completely be reversed such that defenders get all the breaks, but something needs to be done.


Oh, it's this thread again!?

Re: Roaming mechanics (comments on light ewar and stealth)

7 paragraphs and you've said nothing except "its hard to defend".

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Re: Roaming mechanics (comments on light ewar and stealth)

goddamnet leave poor light ew alone!

Have a productive day, Runner

Re: Roaming mechanics (comments on light ewar and stealth)

A pack of predators can bring down big game. Light ewar groups of 6 are 6 players out hunting. It isn't that they are in light bots that make them dangerous, its because there are 6 of them.

It isn't that you are not correct in your observations, the falacy is the comparison and conclusion.

The observation that predators work better in teams then defenders is accurate. It is also true that hunting is more exciting than defending, hence the difficulty in getting players to do it. It isn't the game mechanics that make defending harder, and there isn't a way to make defense more exciting; because it is the waiting and not controlling the fight, and that as you say falls to the team with the speed and movement. If your defending, your limited by the composition of the defensive team.

This game is highly number dependant, equal numbers is rarely a winning strategey, mostly because it is difficult to get the correct bot/role mix to your advantage; basically you have to get lucky to have the 'right' 4 bots that can take on 6 for example.

A better conclusion is, there are not enough strong reasons to defend and not enough conflict to make roaming a secondary activity instead of the primary PVP.

Re: Roaming mechanics (comments on light ewar and stealth)

Scout your teleports?

Re: Roaming mechanics (comments on light ewar and stealth)

Syndic wrote:

7 paragraphs and you've said nothing except "its hard to defend".

hahaha holyshit

Re: Roaming mechanics (comments on light ewar and stealth)

yesterday DoY Syn-Rash Freedom Fighters on arkhes popped SK cameleon. that means arkhes even more OP than ewars - nerf-nerf-nerf!!!

Have a productive day, Runner

Re: Roaming mechanics (comments on light ewar and stealth)

There is nothing new in the story that a blob of Arkes can bring down a single enemy. If the one is in Gropho with shielding  it would need some more arkes than against other but there is no principal change.

In fact when getting zerged you could either run like a chicken or die like a man.

But no nerf that dev could do will change this, so we all need to live with this fact.

Skill is only needed when your in equal numbers with equal equippment.

Re: Roaming mechanics (comments on light ewar and stealth)

exactly. so stop posting about ewars

Have a productive day, Runner

Re: Roaming mechanics (comments on light ewar and stealth)

Arkhe's should not be able to target players/active modules against players. They're Syndicate robots, not for fighting wars.

Two light robots that know what they're doing can easily kill anything up to a solo mech.

The balance between each stage is off by a lot. Mechs should either get more armour or more damage against smaller targets. Kain is pretty much the front runner of the mechs. Artemis seems the worst mech so far.

The Game

Re: Roaming mechanics (comments on light ewar and stealth)

haven't light ewars been "nerfed" already twice?
well at least the intakt was
i'd say stop asking for nerfs, rather ask for improvements on other categories(bots in this case)
, but that's just imo of course
cya

Re: Roaming mechanics (comments on light ewar and stealth)

i dont want a light ewar nerf - i made my suggestion, which is balancing them, not nerfing.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

14 (edited by Line 2011-03-11 08:42:35)

Re: Roaming mechanics (comments on light ewar and stealth)

i think main problem is - people seen how a group of %any_bot_type_1% killing alone %any_bot_type_2% and going to forums in rage - oh look, %any_bot_type_1% is too OP, rebalance or nerf it!

didn't heard if it's a solo pvp game, also dunno how many lights/ewars/assaults should mech kill. im just thinking that if they wil rebalance mechs so they will be able to kill 10 ewars, what will you say if teh enemy will bring more than 10 next time?

if you want to deal with numbers, bring equal or at least adecuate numbers. if you unable to do so or want to deal with great numbers - AoE weapons ftw!

artillery, collateral damage when blowing up, and kamikaze modules should be implemented as soon as possible

Have a productive day, Runner

Re: Roaming mechanics (comments on light ewar and stealth)

In general that it was discussed here.
As result in Update news for 2011-02-17:
'''Change:''' Slightly increased the armor HP of mech and heavymech class robots (Artemis, Kain, Tyrannos; Seth, Mesmer, Gropho).
'''Change:''' There was a "hidden" modifier which gave small weapons a 10% damage boost when hitting big targets. This bonus has now been removed.

It means that attempt to change balance from developers was (unsuccessful).

To line was necessity for global change of balance (in game) is repeatedly proved. And all for a long time it is clear that now he continues to argue from a principle.
It is sad that beginners (like Line) try to interfere with questions of balancing.
Line killed in various groups, including in one on one. (light vs Line's Tyranos) I suggest the Line to learn at first to play, understand the game mechanics, and then to start to conduct conversations in balancing section.

16 (edited by Line 2011-03-16 09:23:10)

Re: Roaming mechanics (comments on light ewar and stealth)

your offensive again, i assume it that you out of arguments?

ewar issue was discussed alot and everyone agreed it's mostly l2p and blob issue. i'll understand some newcomers can raise this question again and again (however they can use search instead), but why YOU keep posting in such topics? if you like this theme so much oh well you already created a whole 7-8 pages topic about 10 intakts OP, just continue to post your maths and proves there.

Have a productive day, Runner

Re: Roaming mechanics (comments on light ewar and stealth)

At last that normal words. I am glad that there is a progress. There can be in further all of us can communicate.

You can offer something on a theme?

Re: Roaming mechanics (comments on light ewar and stealth)

so whats going to happen when advanced light ewars, assualt ewars and stuff are developed and added to the game hehe

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Re: Roaming mechanics (comments on light ewar and stealth)

sure i can.

1. don't try to hunt group of ewars alone
2. don't try to hunt them if you're slower and don't have any tackler to help
3. don't post here about they're too op if you didn't matched first two rules and died

summary, to get ewars bring your own ewars, or use traps and tricks. in other case avoid them or accept all risks and fight

Have a productive day, Runner

Re: Roaming mechanics (comments on light ewar and stealth)

That is you suggest to leave all as is. Heavy robots - a decor, lew - the main striking power.

21 (edited by Line 2011-03-16 09:54:37)

Re: Roaming mechanics (comments on light ewar and stealth)

nope i didn't said that. each robot have his role. anyway, you can use whatever you want, just use it different

nobody stops you to perform HM roams - you just don't do them by yourself. ofc you can say they haven't any advantage for that, so well again - just use different tactics

Have a productive day, Runner

Re: Roaming mechanics (comments on light ewar and stealth)

But you showed video on which it is visible that robot level isn't important in general. Important only quantity.

Re: Roaming mechanics (comments on light ewar and stealth)

yes, so? if we bring 7 HM newxt time instead, result will be even more devastating.

this topic isn't about numbers, but you're right. with great numbers advantage you can win easy enough, there is nothing new. i've said that early, ill repeat it again. we just need some counter thingies. artillery and collateral damage can help with that.

Have a productive day, Runner

Re: Roaming mechanics (comments on light ewar and stealth)

If you come on heavy robots your domination will be correct. However now dominate lights. Quality is more important than quantity.

Re: Roaming mechanics (comments on light ewar and stealth)

by your own words, lights are dominating now because noone uses anything other. however, mech roamings on Norhoop are succesfull enough. single mech attack can be succesfull aswell. it's all depends on your pvp style - if you don't like to die, ofc u'd better use fastest bots and attack single targets with a group. but thers is always another solution - f.e. you can kill as many as you can and die after that - there is nothing bad with heroical death

Have a productive day, Runner