Re: Insurance action

Alexander wrote:

Zoom.
The developers were made aware of the situation before the feature was even fully implemented. I was assured by Dev CRM that price inflation was impossible with the checks he had in place. (In general chat and private chat in-game on one of those rare occasions he logged in).

Forum posts were made and buried. Devs were told that exploiting was possible and no warnings, suggestions or even acceptance of the matter were given.
Whoever designed the mechanic should have seen the flaw but apparently they saw nothing.
Days before the insurance was stopped we talked to Devs and yet again still no warnings, no one telling us it was a "cheat" of the system. Granted it did seem like a stupid mechanic but we were even told to keep it under wraps and not tell anyone.

Special treatment is wrong. I don't want to be treated special for finding an exploit. I want the broken mechanic to be fixed the MOMENT it's reported. You said yourself that you were too late to in halting the issue but the issue's been in the game since July 2010. (Yup.. That long ago)..

"The moment"? Lets be realistic, shall we?  AC is a small indy company on their first game. From what I've seen they are doing the best they can. I've seen major exploits go for MUCH longer in CCP's EVE, and they have a much larger number of personnel.  Not to mention when dealing with complex client/server systems, fixing things "the moment" they are reported is not wise. It takes time to determine what the problem is, and then devise a correction that will fix the problem, and not break other things in the process.

If you can't kill it, don't make it mad.

Re: Insurance action

Welcome to online games LA. This was always the scenaria and thankfully will be it. You pay for using the servers - nothing more.

Its solely up to the DEVs to decide what they like in their game and whatnot.

Re: Insurance action

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

Well, after my statement yesterday, about Mancs, after a long convo, agreeing that I was correct and that the NIC i had was legitimately earned, turned around today and arbitrarily removed it again, after a 2 hour convo trying to show that even though I had not personally earned NIC or advantage thru this, because of my association to the corp and the activity, i was guilty.

They're just using that as an excuse. There are people, including me, who blew up some of the insured bots, but never got any of the insurance.

The reason we haven't had any NIC removed is because we only have a couple of hundred thousand NIC on our accounts, so the devs never bothered.

If they remove NIC from one person who blew stuff up, they also need to remove it from all of us.

"...playing a game is the voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles."
Bernard Suits, 1978

Re: Insurance action

No they dont need to. They calculated teh gain, took it from the corps - and if the money was already spent - took the missing money from affiliated corp members

When they have the NIC that was gained by exploiting, they stop removing any more. Simple.

205 (edited by Saha 2011-02-15 02:48:32)

Re: Insurance action

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

Well, after my statement yesterday, about Mancs, after a long convo, agreeing that I was correct and that the NIC i had was legitimately earned, turned around today and arbitrarily removed it again, after a 2 hour convo trying to show that even though I had not personally earned NIC or advantage thru this, because of my association to the corp and the activity, i was guilty.

Well, this is ridiculous. Zoom, any comment? Or can we expect NIC randomly disappearing and reapearing for months now deppending on which cycle of the moon has what effect on the given Dev who did this nonsence?

I thought you said you guys have learned a lot out of this, yet you turn around and do another proffesionalism slip on the same day.

206 (edited by Lupus Aurelius 2011-02-15 02:56:56)

Re: Insurance action

Saha wrote:
Lupus Aurelius wrote:

Well, after my statement yesterday, about Mancs, after a long convo, agreeing that I was correct and that the NIC i had was legitimately earned, turned around today and arbitrarily removed it again, after a 2 hour convo trying to show that even though I had not personally earned NIC or advantage thru this, because of my association to the corp and the activity, i was guilty.

Well, this is ridiculous. Zoom, any comment? Or can we expect NIC randomly disappearing and reapearing for months now deppending on which cycle of the moon has what effect on the given Dev who did this nonsence?

I thought you said you guys have learned a lot out of this, yet you turn around and do another proffesionalism slip on the same day.

Well, I have emailed DEV Zoom on how this was handled with me personally by Dev Mancs, with no response yet.  But in the spirit of transparency, I think the community needs a public response.  So, respectfully, I request a response here as well Dev Zoom, as to this issue.

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!

Re: Insurance action

Lupus, a public response be it then:

Today I was surprised to find out that Mancs returned the money we removed from you during the downtime, because somehow you could convince him that you are innocent.

Like you posted before:

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

Actually, I got punished for something i did not do - my NIC was removed, when I never personally did any insurance.  My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it.  No trasfers from anyone other than small tips for helping ppl out.

It's actually not necessary to buy insurances yourself to be guilty, since insured robots can be freely given around by corporation members via the storages.

Unfortunately Mancs made the mistake of only checking your transaction logs, but not checking your robot losses, which shows 38 corp-insured Baphomets (31 of them destroyed during an overall timespan of 35 minutes - a fine performance if you ask me).

I hope that answers your questions and we are sorry for this mishap.

Re: Insurance action

DEV Zoom wrote:

Unfortunately Mancs made the mistake of only checking your transaction logs, but not checking your robot losses, which shows 38 corp-insured Baphomets (31 of them destroyed during an overall timespan of 35 minutes - a fine performance if you ask me).

I hope that answers your questions and we are sorry for this mishap.

So why wasn't NIC removed from me? Surely a percentage of my NIC should have been removed as well, since I'm pretty sure I was involved as Lupus.

Also, other members who did most of the blowing up of bots didn't lose any NIC either...

This is hardly a fair or reasonable response.

"...playing a game is the voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles."
Bernard Suits, 1978

Re: Insurance action

DEV Zoom wrote:

Lupus, a public response be it then:

Today I was surprised to find out that Mancs returned the money we removed from you during the downtime, because somehow you could convince him that you are innocent.

Like you posted before:

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

Actually, I got punished for something i did not do - my NIC was removed, when I never personally did any insurance.  My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it.  No trasfers from anyone other than small tips for helping ppl out.

It's actually not necessary to buy insurances yourself to be guilty, since insured robots can be freely given around by corporation members via the storages.

Unfortunately Mancs made the mistake of only checking your transaction logs, but not checking your robot losses, which shows 38 corp-insured Baphomets (31 of them destroyed during an overall timespan of 35 minutes - a fine performance if you ask me).

I hope that answers your questions and we are sorry for this mishap.

Wait doesn't the insurance NIC go to the insurer (Corp)? So the corp would get the money? How does that make Lupus's cash part of this?

Forgive me, believe it or not, i've never insured a bot.

210 (edited by Lupus Aurelius 2011-02-15 06:00:38)

Re: Insurance action

DEV Zoom wrote:

Lupus, a public response be it then:

Today I was surprised to find out that Mancs returned the money we removed from you during the downtime, because somehow you could convince him that you are innocent.

Like you posted before:

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

Actually, I got punished for something i did not do - my NIC was removed, when I never personally did any insurance.  My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it.  No trasfers from anyone other than small tips for helping ppl out.

It's actually not necessary to buy insurances yourself to be guilty, since insured robots can be freely given around by corporation members via the storages.

Unfortunately Mancs made the mistake of only checking your transaction logs, but not checking your robot losses, which shows 38 corp-insured Baphomets (31 of them destroyed during an overall timespan of 35 minutes - a fine performance if you ask me).

I hope that answers your questions and we are sorry for this mishap.


Mishap!?!?!?!  Total B***S***.

EULA states:

* It is forbidden to use any kind of third party application or tool that interfaces with, mimics or interferes with any part of the game system in any way, including the use of macros, control scripts, bots, system time manipulation tools, memory access tools or reverse engineering tools;
* It is forbidden to use any trick, hack or exploit that allows the player to gain ingame currency, or anything that an ingame monetary value can be assigned to, or any kind of unfair advantage over the other players.

1)NIC removed from my account was from kernel sales and assignments - all transaction logs show that, no insurance payouts what so ever.
2) Any bot that I shot was not, nor ever, insured by me
3) No publication by the DEVS or GMs that this was considered an exploit
4) DEVS, when informed of the issue, during release ( yes, they were reinformed during release, not just during beta) stated that it was working as intended, and was not an issue
5) Insurance on the bots in question was performed thru corp, with funds going to corporation wallet.
6) No corporation funds were transfered to my character as part of this activity
7) Transaction logs show that the majority of the NIC I personally earned was actually earned prior to the event in question, and again, was not related to the activity
8) DEVS HAD ALREADY TAKEN THE FUNDS IN QUESTION FROM THE CORP WALLET, based on the published formulas in the blog, and from the corp officers

Please, DEV Zoom, be so kind as to address the above points, and show how the punitive action performed upon myself, just because I am a M2S member that shot 30 bots when told to by my corp, are justified and fair.

This is what I mean about due process and objective evaluation.  AT NO TIME< EVEN AFTER THE DEVS WHERE INFORMED, AND CONFIRMING THAT IT WAS WORKING AS INTENDED, WAS ANYTHING COMMUNICATED TO ANYONE THAT THE ACTIVITY WAS CONSIDERED AN EXPLOIT.

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!

211

Re: Insurance action

lul u mad

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

212 (edited by Lupus Aurelius 2011-02-15 05:41:03)

Re: Insurance action

Jita wrote:

lul u mad

Jita, if you do not comprehend that they could just as easily do this to you, because of the vague and arbitrary definition and process, then you are just a total idiot.  I would think that as a player and corp officer, you would be just as concerned that this process COULD BE APPLIED to you as well, just as easily.

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!

Re: Insurance action

GLiMPSE wrote:

Let me put the facts out once again... as simple as I can:

1. DEVS were told of the issue.
2. DEVS said it was ok.

If the DEV's considered it an exploit back at step 1... why didn't they say so then?

Umm..... /thread ?

Re: Insurance action

Jita wrote:

lul u mad

Your transformation is almost complete.

Re: Insurance action

I have a feeling Lupus cries himself to sleep over his lost nic.

216 (edited by Lupus Aurelius 2011-02-15 05:55:04)

Re: Insurance action

LethalRose wrote:

I have a feeling Lupus cries himself to sleep over his lost nic.

Frankly, I don't care about the NIC, I can always earn more.  EARN IT, as I did before.  This is a matter of principle, and if it were you, or Jita, or anyone else, I would be just as outraged over how this was handled.

EDIT - and I wait with bated breath for DEV Zoom's considered response....

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!

217 (edited by Bud Fox 2011-02-15 05:57:51)

Re: Insurance action

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

Mishap!?!?!?!  Total B***S***.

.. blah ...
... just because I ... shot 30 bots ...
..blah blah..

Be happy that they didnt ban/reset your account and get over it.
Take it like a man! Its just a Game....

218

Re: Insurance action

Lupus Aurelius wrote:
LethalRose wrote:

I have a feeling Lupus cries himself to sleep over his lost nic.

Frankly, I don't care about the NIC, I can always earn more.  EARN IT, as I did before.  This is a matter of principle, and if it were you, or Jita, or anyone else, I would be just as outraged over how this was handled.

EDIT - and I wait with bated breath for DEV Zoom's considered response....

M2S outraged over principle.

You chose the corp, you know that this kind of thing is what you do and now your paying for it. Quit bawwing and get over it. Or dont ofc, i'm enjoying this immensely.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Insurance action

Jita wrote:
Lupus Aurelius wrote:
LethalRose wrote:

I have a feeling Lupus cries himself to sleep over his lost nic.

Frankly, I don't care about the NIC, I can always earn more.  EARN IT, as I did before.  This is a matter of principle, and if it were you, or Jita, or anyone else, I would be just as outraged over how this was handled.

EDIT - and I wait with bated breath for DEV Zoom's considered response....

M2S outraged over principle.

You chose the corp, you know that this kind of thing is what you do and now your paying for it. Quit bawwing and get over it. Or dont ofc, i'm enjoying this immensely.

Then you are indeed an idiot...

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!

Re: Insurance action

Lupus Aurelius wrote:
DEV Zoom wrote:

Lupus, a public response be it then:

Today I was surprised to find out that Mancs returned the money we removed from you during the downtime, because somehow you could convince him that you are innocent.

Like you posted before:

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

Actually, I got punished for something i did not do - my NIC was removed, when I never personally did any insurance.  My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it.  No trasfers from anyone other than small tips for helping ppl out.

It's actually not necessary to buy insurances yourself to be guilty, since insured robots can be freely given around by corporation members via the storages.

Unfortunately Mancs made the mistake of only checking your transaction logs, but not checking your robot losses, which shows 38 corp-insured Baphomets (31 of them destroyed during an overall timespan of 35 minutes - a fine performance if you ask me).

I hope that answers your questions and we are sorry for this mishap.


Mishap!?!?!?!  Total B***S***.

EULA states:

* It is forbidden to use any kind of third party application or tool that interfaces with, mimics or interferes with any part of the game system in any way, including the use of macros, control scripts, bots, system time manipulation tools, memory access tools or reverse engineering tools;
* It is forbidden to use any trick, hack or exploit that allows the player to gain ingame currency, or anything that an ingame monetary value can be assigned to, or any kind of unfair advantage over the other players.

1)NIC removed from my account was from kernel sales and assignments - all transaction logs show that, no insurance payouts what so ever.
2) Any bot that I shot was not, nor ever, insured by me
3) No publication by the DEVS or GMs that this was considered an exploit
4) DEVS, when informed of the issue, during release ( yes, they were reinformed during release, not just during beta) stated that it was working as intended, and was not an issue
5) Insurance on the bots in question was performed thru corp, with funds going to corporation wallet.
6) No corporation funds were transfered to my character as part of this activity
7) Transaction logs show that the majority of the NIC I personally earned was actually earned prior to the event in question, and again, was not related to the activity
8) DEVS HAD ALREADY TAKEN THE FUNDS IN QUESTION FROM THE CORP WALLET, based on the published formulas in the blog, and from the corp officers

Please, DEV Zoom, be so kind as to address the above points, and show how the punitive action performed upon myself, just because I am a M2S member that shot 30 bots when told to by my corp, are justified and fair.

This is what I mean about due process and objective evaluation.  AT NO TIME< EVEN AFTER THE DEVS WHERE INFORMED, AND CONFIRMING THAT IT WAS WORKING AS INTENDED, WAS ANYTHING COMMUNICATED TO ANYONE THAT THE ACTIVITY WAS CONSIDERED AN EXPLOIT.

Figured this was getting buried, so to help DEV Zoom, or any of the DEVs see this so they have the opportunity to repond, i have quoted it here....

I am so considerate....

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!

221

Re: Insurance action

Maybe they should take away your thousands of bots so you have reason to make more to blow up.

222

Re: Insurance action

Ah, principle- the last refuge of scoundrels.

It is forbidden to use any trick, hack or exploit that allows the player to gain ingame currency, or anything that an ingame monetary value can be assigned to, or any kind of unfair advantage over the other players.

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

1)NIC removed from my account was from kernel sales and assignments - all transaction logs show that, no insurance payouts what so ever.

This is unfortunate; however, since you're in the business of splitting hairs, let's point out that "no insurance payouts what so ever" in no way demonstrates that you did not profit from the exploit. There are many other ways in which you could have profited.

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

2) Any bot that I shot was not, nor ever, insured by me

So? This is more hair-splitting: the bots were insured by your corp, and you took part in their destruction, therefore you took part on the exploit.

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

3) No publication by the DEVS or GMs that this was considered an exploit

Again, so what? The section of the EULA which you took pains to cite clearly covers this. In order to prosecute theft, do we need to list every item that might conceivably be stolen? Or is it enough to describe the act?

In other words, an exploit is not an exploit only after someone explicitly declares that it is.

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

4) DEVS, when informed of the issue, during release ( yes, they were reinformed during release, not just during beta) stated that it was working as intended, and was not an issue

I hope you understand that you, as someone who belongs to a corp that performed the exploit, and as someone who admits participating in it, are completely untrustworthy in this regard. If a third party is able to provide information that shows a dev, acting in his capacity as an official representative, explicitly stating this, then you might have a case. Otherwise we have no reason to believe this ever occurred as you describe it.

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

5) Insurance on the bots in question was performed thru corp, with funds going to corporation wallet.

So? You have no point here.

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

6) No corporation funds were transfered to my character as part of this activity

Since this cannot be reliably proven, it's your word against theirs. Moreover, since you admit to taking part in the exploit, even if you personally did not profit from it, you could always consider it a punitive action, and give thanks that you simply were not banned.

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

7) Transaction logs show that the majority of the NIC I personally earned was actually earned prior to the event in question, and again, was not related to the activity

See responses to #1 and #6. In short: you're guilty, suck it up.

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

8) DEVS HAD ALREADY TAKEN THE FUNDS IN QUESTION FROM THE CORP WALLET, based on the published formulas in the blog, and from the corp officers

So? Where is it stated that only one 'adjustment' would be made? Is it possible that further investigation, and the overly dramatic protestations made by the likes of you, revealed the need for further action?

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

just because I am a M2S member that shot 30 bots when told to by my corp, are justified and fair.

There are two points to be made here:
1) You admit that you shot 30 bots, which is an admission that you participated in the exploit. "I was merely following orders" has never been a legitimate excuse. In other words, you are guilty.

2) As someone who participated in an exploit, you are guilty of fraud, and therefore are the last person to be claiming that you haven't been treated fairly.

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

This is what I mean about due process and objective evaluation.

Seriously? Due process? You have no right to such a thing here.
Also, it's quite evident that you do not understand what "objective" means.
 

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

AT NO TIME< EVEN AFTER THE DEVS WHERE INFORMED, AND CONFIRMING THAT IT WAS WORKING AS INTENDED, WAS ANYTHING COMMUNICATED TO ANYONE THAT THE ACTIVITY WAS CONSIDERED AN EXPLOIT.

NUMBER ONE: AT NO POINT, IN ANY PUBLIC CONVERSATION, HAVE YOU PROVEN THAT THE DEVS WERE IN FACT INFORMED OF THIS PRECISE ISSUE, LET ALONE THAT THEY COMMUNICATED ANYTHING TO YOU OR ANYONE ELSE REGARDING ITS STATUS AS AN EXPLOIT.

NUMBER TWO:EVEN IF IT IS NEVER EXPLICITLY IDENTIFIED AS AN EXPLOIT, IT CAN STILL BE AN EXPLOIT.

BOTTOM LINE: YOU ARE GUILTY. SUCK IT UP, TAKE IT LIKE A MAN, AND BE THANKFUL YOU WEREN'T OUTRIGHT BANNED.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

223 (edited by Lupus Aurelius 2011-02-15 07:34:48)

Re: Insurance action

Savin --- does not equal DEV. Not even relevant to the discussion...

I believe that is who we are waiting a response for here....

EDIT - oh, i forgot, Savin...  idiot!

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!

224

Re: Insurance action

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

Savin --- does not equal DEV. Not even relevant to the discussion...

I believe that is who we are waiting a response for here....

EDIT - oh, i forgot, Savin...  idiot!

Aww, did I point out your flawed arguments before a dev could? Sorry, captain shortbus.

Anyway, if I'm such an idiot, a man of your stature should easily be able to refute my points. So have at it- it's been a month or so since I last humiliated you, and I need a refresher.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

Re: Insurance action

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

Savin --- does not equal DEV. Not even relevant to the discussion...

I believe that is who we are waiting a response for here....

EDIT - oh, i forgot, Savin...  idiot!

So much irony in you calling everyone an idiot...

Someone explains how you're wrong and you just say it's not relevant. 

Oh and speak for yourself.