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Topic: why are there pvp flag consequences on beta?

I dont fully get why a pvp flag inhibits jumping/zoning and would tend to see that turned off.

1. People who get attacked on beta and defend should suffer from that.
2. It kind of gives an artificial instanced feel to the game when you are inhibitet in doing something.

3. Isee no negative consequences to pvp by turning the jumbing/entering feature off. At least the teleporting/jumping inhibition.

4. I understand that nobody should be able to fire and then hide in a terminal - allthough this should be possible on lawless outposts.

5. Fleeing a combat from beta to alpha wouldnt be affected since the pvp flag would also be there on alpha and people could be tracked, followed and killed there easily as well.

6. It would break up the artificial pvp barrier between alpha and beta if we see flagged people fleeing to alpha - hopefully some resulting pvp would happen on alpha side.

7. Alpha sides are already part of the pvp as in scouting - so why not make it complete?

Thanks for any hint on why teleporting is inhibited while being flagged.

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Re: why are there pvp flag consequences on beta?

Henkst wrote:

I dont fully get why a pvp flag inhibits jumping/zoning and would tend to see that turned off.

1. People who get attacked on beta and defend should suffer from that.
2. It kind of gives an artificial instanced feel to the game when you are inhibitet in doing something.

3. Isee no negative consequences to pvp by turning the jumbing/entering feature off. At least the teleporting/jumping inhibition.

4. I understand that nobody should be able to fire and then hide in a terminal - allthough this should be possible on lawless outposts.

5. Fleeing a combat from beta to alpha wouldnt be affected since the pvp flag would also be there on alpha and people could be tracked, followed and killed there easily as well.

6. It would break up the artificial pvp barrier between alpha and beta if we see flagged people fleeing to alpha - hopefully some resulting pvp would happen on alpha side.

7. Alpha sides are already part of the pvp as in scouting - so why not make it complete?

Thanks for any hint on why teleporting is inhibited while being flagged.

I agree with regards to the off island teleports. But not the docking changes.

Docking would allow for fighting under a terminal to be far to effective. You wouldn't have any reason to leave under your terminal because the second you're close to death you dock, pay a lil cash and then redeploy.

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Re: why are there pvp flag consequences on beta?

There is a reason. The way the game is made if you teleport/zone your PVP flag cannot go with you. It's either no jumping or no pvp flags when you arrive on the other side.

Docking when PVP flagged would just start station games all over again and I hated those.

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Re: why are there pvp flag consequences on beta?

Docking when PVP flagged would just start station games all over again and I hated those.

i love that argument.

now we just have to find an option that prevents all the "carebears" to dock at the outpost when a roaming party enters the island.

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Re: why are there pvp flag consequences on beta?

1. cant really comment on the outpost situation - but i in general the the owning party should be able to draw back.

Yes Glimpse, synch whoring - of course needs to be prevented - and this is done by the goal the attackers and defenders have when attacking an OP. if the defenders cant keep their presence outside - then the goal must be designed so that they cannot be successful in defending it. simple.

if that isnt the case - the OP attack should be re-designed. and until its done - synchwhoring must not be possible.

(Neocron was great in that point: you needed hackers which entered the paralell world called hacknet to get to the op and hack it from within and also a party in the "real" world to complete the hack.

Defenders could synch in and out - but needed defense within the hacknet and outside to prevail.

2. Alexander, sry but this simply cannot be true. honestly - it prolly takes a day to implement the basic featureset to maintain "buffs" over transitions.

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Re: why are there pvp flag consequences on beta?

Syndicate doesnt want your hostile actions so they prohibit you from coming to Alpha or docking in one of their stations within a time limit of your last aggression.

Outposts are not lawless.  They are still owned by the Syndicate and we are in essence "renting" them.  Maybe when player owned and built structures come into play we will be able to employ this tactic.  It will give a bonus to defending (dock up and repair but you pay for it).  Still, the 'instability' timer would prevent people from abusing it every 10 seconds.

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7 Reply by Henkst (edited by Henkst 2011-01-13 21:57:06)

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Re: why are there pvp flag consequences on beta?

Thats fine Neoxx, but still - not zoning with pvp flag is just plain silly. biggest immersion breaker for me.

If SYN doesnt want that - why is there a pvp trigger on alpha? Its not consistent in itelf.

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Re: why are there pvp flag consequences on beta?

Then sure, keep your flag over to alpha and let us chase you down there and kill you.

The current limiter is that the flag does not transfer when you move from island to island.

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Re: why are there pvp flag consequences on beta?

Neoxx wrote:

Then sure, keep your flag over to alpha and let us chase you down there and kill you.

The current limiter is that the flag does not transfer when you move from island to island.

Which I believe is a engine/game limited issue that would require significant reinvention to make work properly?

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10 Reply by Henkst (edited by Henkst 2011-01-13 23:45:07)

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Re: why are there pvp flag consequences on beta?

Its a database entry. If they can have nexus/interference/sense amp etc effects - they easily can have those persistent.

Its like saying they cannot save you account/email in the login screen. You dump them on zoning and load em on the other side.

But anyway - thats doesnt lead anywhere now ;D

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Re: why are there pvp flag consequences on beta?

Henkst wrote:

Its a database entry. If they can have nexus/interference/sense amp etc effects - they easily can have those persistent.

But anyway - thats doesnt lead anywhere now ;D

But they don't... that's why when you switch between islands you have to reactivate your modules....

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Re: why are there pvp flag consequences on beta?

Yes i get it - but to change that it takes uhm - not as long as writing this here...

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Re: why are there pvp flag consequences on beta?

Henkst wrote:

Yes i get it - but to change that it takes uhm - not as long as writing this here...

Go ahead and write up that code for em then please and email it over to em. I'll make sure they implement it right away.

Incoming, but I don't know their infrastructure, I can't program, I don't know what I am talking about....

My point... exactly...

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Re: why are there pvp flag consequences on beta?

Henkst wrote:

Yes i get it - but to change that it takes uhm - not as long as writing this here...

sure, they are able to write a whole engine, the game mechanics and stuff all by themselfs, and then you tell, that you could write that thing in a few seconds, when the DEVs themselfs have not implemented it for the reason that it isn't easy to implement.

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Re: why are there pvp flag consequences on beta?

you can do that with any sort of database connecten system - whatever it looks like - they have a feature to read and write.

most certainly, they wanna add content now without overhauling certain parts of the game, which would be understandable.

but thats not what this is about - they could do it within some days from first draft to a tested version - thats sure.

but this here is about if it was a good idea or not.

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Re: why are there pvp flag consequences on beta?

Anni, it is easy to implement - this is more then basic stuff. they already do it in certain parts of the game - just not in that area. so the featureset already is there. theres no need to write lots of stuff.

the whole code for that wouldnt be longer then some dina-4 pages at most. theres no need to be so offensive guys. this really is a minor task.

for example - they do it already half way - your modules now will run even on disconnect which means they dump that data into the character profile.

this already is 50% of the needed work. now they just need to do that for "buffs" also which would be just another databse entry on a diff table - and load it upon spawning.

done.

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Re: why are there pvp flag consequences on beta?

When you crash you dont log off, you just stop sending data.  Whhen your modules are on you dont send an acgivation request each cycle, the server just keeps them running until you tell them to turn off. Theres no data dump. To the server you are still logged in but not responding.  So... youre wrong.

They would have to just read the last aggression on zoning and apply the flag accordingly.  They already log that stuff so they wouldnt  even have to write any  additional data.

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Re: why are there pvp flag consequences on beta?

If you turn on any module there of course is client/server interaction and serverside sets a flag in the active char profile. This doent have to do with cycles of the module - its merely an example that the basic infrastructure for sending that data, keeping and evaluating it is of course in place - and that was aimed at the smartassing above tongue

But yes - if they already log last agression - then its even easier to do. So - why isnt it in place? ;D

And no Neoxx i wasnt wrong at all - i didnt imply there is a pull/push system on each module cycle.

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Re: why are there pvp flag consequences on beta?

Henkst wrote:

But yes - if they already log last agression - then its even easier to do. So - why isnt it in place? ;D

You're answering your own questions here with the obvious answer we've been giving you.

It's not as easy as you think.

You have no idea how they've programmed this game. Sure, you may know how to type the word database and flag... but that doesn't mean you understand what it would take to get this feature implemented in the current perpetuum environment.

The fact that they haven't done it in any part of the game yet means it's not easy... otherwise it'd be there.

brain your use Thanks,

GLiMPSE

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20 Reply by Henkst (edited by Henkst 2011-01-14 14:45:33)

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Re: why are there pvp flag consequences on beta?

Glimpse pls stop trying to be a smartass - i know what im talking about. If this game is based on some sort of solid development, then its very easy to implement. If its not - then its doomed - which would surprise me since everything is working great for the game.

And hence the question - the game looks good - so why not these simple changes? You dont seem to know what your talking about btw - if you had any clue on this subject you would laugh your *** off aboud what youre talking about.

And your even wrong - the needed technique to implement what were talking about is already there - and they do it on any data retrieval element in the GUI - like payment history and whatnot.

If they said its hard to do - they just wanted to put a lock on that discussion - which obviously worked.

The required featureset is the most underlying and basic thing in client/server/database networkin engines. Its like saying their gfx dep. cant create a bitmap.

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Re: why are there pvp flag consequences on beta?

Henkst wrote:

Glimpse pls stop trying to be a smartass - i know what im talking about. If this game is based on some sort of solid development, then its very easy to implement. If its not - then its doomed - which would surprise me since everything is working great for the game.

And hence the question - the game looks good - so why not these simple changes? You dont seem to know what your talking about btw - if you had any clue on this subject you would laugh your *** off aboud what youre talking about.

And your even wrong - the needed technique to implement what were talking about is already there - and they do it on any data retrieval element in the GUI - like payment history and whatnot.

If they said its hard to do - they just wanted to put a lock on that discussion - which obviously worked.

The required featureset is the most underlying and basic thing in client/server/database networkin engines. Its like saying their gfx dep. cant create a bitmap.

Here's a scenario for you... genius...

Maybe they don't have the active flags of the bots status (modules, pvp flags, etc) written to the database to save on transactions...because...we all know... that *** is slow.

Instead... maybe this information is stored in memory and never written to keep the game pumping along quickly.

It's impossible for you to conjecture about how this game is written because of the way it looks. They may have made a mistake in design preventing this feature. If you had half as much knowledge and/or experience as you boast you would know that this is a very common occurrence and they might simply not have the man power to rewrite this section of the game and bug-test that much code right now.

You're arguing with yourself at this point because if you reread everything you've said you've contradicted yourself more times then ex-American President George Bush Jr.


Thanks for playing,
GLiMPSE

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Re: why are there pvp flag consequences on beta?

Not at all glimpse - THEY ALREADY DO IT - but not in this section - whenever you chance anything on your bot, character inventory - on nearly anythng.

The data needed to be sent/stored is so minor its not worth talking about - not even accumulated to 1000s of clients. Even to container opening causes more traffic then what were talking about here.

And of course im able to know what is being server synchronized and whatnot. Its easy to have a look at the network flow.

And im not arguing with myself - i had a simple question which isnt answered yet. You starting on how complicated these MOST BASIC things are. And this is simply wrong no matter how you try to turn it and come with your dabating class like amateur rethoric.

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Re: why are there pvp flag consequences on beta?

Henkst, yer talking about constant updates between the server/client to perform this.

In order to get a correct duration of the pvp timer, there would need to be almost real time synchronization...imagine that kind of information being sent constantly between the server and client for all players.

That's a rediculous amount of overhead that could occur for your 'easy' change.  Also, your netflow 'analysis' more than likely does not show you what perpetuum is sending back and forth.  If you could see the specific client/server interaction to carry these flags back and forth from the server to the client, that would lead to multiple exploits.

Hey I've isolated the network connection that sends my pvp flag/module status back/accumulator consumption/everything else to the server...let me just hijack the session and tell the server that I'm always at 100% accumulator or my pvp flag is always off when i want it to be

Stop claiming that you know everything and that this is an 'easy' fix.  You can't possibly tell how much bandwidth or overhead would be required to add your change in just based off your network usage, nor could you possibly even know how much overhead opening a container would be.

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Re: why are there pvp flag consequences on beta?

Henkst wrote:

Not at all glimpse - THEY ALREADY DO IT - but not in this section - whenever you chance anything on your bot, character inventory - on nearly anythng.

The data needed to be sent/stored is so minor its not worth talking about - not even accumulated to 1000s of clients. Even to container opening causes more traffic then what were talking about here.

And of course im able to know what is being server synchronized and whatnot. Its easy to have a look at the network flow.

And im not arguing with myself - i had a simple question which isnt answered yet. You starting on how complicated these MOST BASIC things are. And this is simply wrong no matter how you try to turn it and come with your dabating class like amateur rethoric.

I worry for you.

Happy holidays and best wishes,
GLiMPSE

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25 Reply by Henkst (edited by Henkst 2011-01-14 17:52:32)

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Re: why are there pvp flag consequences on beta?

Indust, im designing these systems myself. You can trace everything via the network when its not encrypted asymetrically. Its easy. How do you think packet manipulation is being done? Together with s-ice ethereal will tell you everything.

There already are constant syncronisations - position etc. For the flag, you wouldnt need a realtime synch - on/off is the classic and the differences on server an client would be in the milliseconds. But for that case you could easily set a 'pull' on those timers.

Databases are the least problem - theyre the most performant and efficient element in these structures.

Network overhead? Are you serious? What do you think what containers and environment interaction creates as overhead? Ammunition anyone? They didnt want to recalculate weight on each inventory change which is reasonable since it puts löoad on the server constantly as in calculations. But you worry about a flag which would have the same layout as modules being used. items being picked up - positions? Srsly, get off.

And sure i can know all that what you are denying, when youre experienced in these things. Stop wasting my time pls. Theres no magic involved or wizardry guys - this is just plain basic stuff millions of people know and do on a daily basis.