because your formula is wrong...

how many years is it since the last time i have seen that one?
oh wait, its one of those i wanted to fix in that wiki formula page that contains multiple of those wrong ones.

btw, the formula may work,
its not even "completely wrong" to begin with - but when you forget 100% at the input, you have to add it later.

just think about it.
the locktime mod of the supressor shows 40% in that info. if the game would use that number, the locktime would actually decrease and make buffed one lock things faster.

even a math noob should know that "40% more locktime" translates to 140%, aka a factor of 1.4

and a perpetuum Veteran should know that the ingame info panels cut off 100% by default to display the actual bonus/penalty, not as factor.
So many blames of "hungarian math" are based on missunderstanding those displayed numbers

oh man
you ad the "1+" everwhere in youre formula except the input.

just an example:
my basic robotics is lvl9, sensor supressing 5 (=15%)
a t4 supressor has locktime increase 40%
a intakt with that level has 27% locktime supression

supressor info ingame shows 99%
set it:
(1+ 0.4) * (1+0.27+0.15) = 1.988 aka lockitme of (rounded) 199% aka a locktime increase of 99%

if you dig deep in the forums, you will find that i somwhere have writted down a single formula that works of ALL extension. Its as simple as that.

Celebro's formula for the base locking time is correct as well though, but I'm not sure the tuner math is correct (Edit: based on quick testing, it comes pretty close but is not completely correct).

Sheet with formula: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ … edit#gid=0

Either way, your formula does help explains that there's at least some logic behind how the value is calculated. The question now becomes whether this intended behaviour or whether it's an oversight. The somewhat exponential effect tuners have should/could be considered here as it's over-amplified due to how the math works out.

Mathematically, this has pretty extreme effects when the base values are percentages. Just out of curiosity, are there any other cases where percentages are being modified like with suppressors?

@celebro there's no real technical difference in how the bonuses are applied. the difference comes from the base value. with AP values (and almost everything else in the game) you're operating on normal numbers, while you work with a percentage on suppressors. Now, instead of using the raw percentage and then modifying that, the percentage is transformed into a multiplier (.4 -> 1.4) before applying the buffs. This is kind of a special case, but i'm not convinced that the current values are intended.

Here is some raw data on field, on the whole principle it is somewhat correct 17.5% (should be 17% with T4 tuner so should be looked at) bonus is applied once the 90% is calculated, then for more tuners the number percentage increases on top. This is confusing how it is shown on the information window because it's dependent on the target.

Using a Zenith on a castel with a locking time of 7.35 seconds

With lvl 10 advance robotics
No Complex Jamming skill               

Sensor supressor bonus/No. tuners T4    /Skill Suppressor/Jamming/    Difference per tuning added/Increase per tuner /1/2 supressor(s) on Castel bot in sec.

90%        0    2    1    0    0       14            26.66         
124%    1    2    1    34    0    16.45    36.8
163%    2    2    1    39    5    19.33    50.81
209%    3    2    1    46    7    22.71    70.15
263%    4    2    1    54    8    26.69    96.88<-Edit: Need a Zenith MK2 for this one so its calculated.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How I thought it was (below). This is simply adding 17% of the tuning bonus as a normal number to your skill base which is 90% in this case. (No Hungarian math.) Here you get 17% more on your module not on the target locking time. To me it looks much more reasonable , but i will still go for a stacking penalty
                           
90%        0    2    0    0    0       14            26.66
107%    1    2    1    17    0    15.21    31.48
124%    2    2    1    17    0    16.46    36.87
141%    3    2    1    17    0    17.71    42.68
158%    4    2    1    17    0    18.96    48.92

I did some very brief testing and weapons and their tuners definitely don't follow this formula (i.e., the raw percentage is used). Mining modules do, however. Amps don't and geoscanners might not as well (will check later). Some of the nexuses could be using it, but the majority isn't.

Just to clarify again, this whole thread is basically about the usage of the raw percentage (40% = .4) versus the multiplier of the percentage (1.4) as base value in formulas, and not multiplication with percentage changes.

i correct my statement - for weapons, the 100% is not cut off, but not displayed if 100% exactly.

so, celebro, how do you calculate:
demobs
sensor amps
remote sensor amps
Interference emitter
...

and if you use my formula (and set in the right values), you get exact results, no matter how many tuners used.
(oh, and i don't use a second step for tuners, i add them in one go)

*edit*
wait, you expect to use (1-displayed number as decimal) * (stuff) if its a negative % number, but you dont expect to use (1+displayed number as decimal) * (stuff) if its a positive?

thats what your saying?

*edit edit* oh, and i meant sensor amps themself, they get an extension bonus. we are talking about modules that have a modifier that is modified by extension. not the sensor amps effect on your locktime

I don't know but I understand how it works now, but the way it is applied it is rather confusing for new players. It's like you add a tuner and think it will increase your bot bonus by that amount but no, it increases the target bot locking time by that same amount after skills and any extra tuner of that type.

The T3 cuts one off too .. that's 16.5%. If nothing else, this thread did increase the amount of available information by uncovering that.

This means that the formula(s) for tuners above are indeed correct.

--

All in all, the suppression calculation itself could be accepted. What stands as really problematic is how the math implementation affects the tuners--while pretty much every other tuner in the game applies the bonus as you'd expect, SS tuners effectively convey twice their stated bonus per tuner. I'd like a statement of whether this is intended behaviour, ideally.

--
Problem description:

The general tuner formula is as follows
1) Y = Base * (1 + %change)^number of tuners.

Strictly speaking, the same formula is used for sensor tunings, but the caveat is that instead of base, (base + 1) is used. Like so:

2) Y = (Base + 1) * (1 + %change)^number of tuners.

An alternative way to write this is like so:

2) Y = Base * (1 + %change)^number of tuners + number of tuners * %change.

The second formula demonstrates the issue more clearly as it's apparent what tangible effect the (base + 1) has (+ number of tuners * %change). This means that, effectively, tuners do apply their bonus double on suppressors while pretty much every (most?) other item in the game simply applies the bonus from the tuners directly (= just one time). The result is that the suppressor tuner effect is significantly more potent than the bonuses other tuners convey

--
Solution:

1. Either modify the base value for tuners internally so that it's .4 and not 1.4 and then change the formula that's used to calculate the bonus to celebro's formula (see below*). This would allow the tuner formula to remain the same is it is now.

2. Specifically modify the tuner formula that's used to calculate the sensor suppressor bonus to
y = (base - 1) * (1 + %change)^number of tuners.

*
Celebro's Formula: Y = Base * (1 + Robot Bonus *.03 + SS Skill * 0.03) + Robot Bonus *.03 + SS Skill * 0.03