1 (edited by Hunter 2013-06-18 08:10:49)

Topic: PvE gameplay report and some advices

The Game process should be interesting - not boring since the games refers to entertainment content. Interest and fun - the main components of the game.
Also the game should be a game. It should not require too much from the player.

However, in "Perpetuum-online" contains moments that really kills it. This is  a disease of Perpetuum.

1) Mining of the raw materials.
This is the most boring process in the game.
You need to find a spot of resources, bring a mining-robot and dig. Mining-process is switching between tiles and moving resources from cargo in to the field container.
The road to the spot takes 20-30 minutes to scan. Same time to bring miner (and move back to station). Same for hauling. That is at least an hour is required only to reach to the spot and take out the raw minerals.
Also you need to spend about an hour (at least) that would extract a small amount of resources.
Even the simplest robot (like arbalest) requires 6 kinds of raw materials. That is the producing of party a simple robots you need to spend about 12 hours to get resources.
So 12 hours the player will not play, but will work.
Rare materials: At the moment it is possible to mine rare materials only in beta, and gamma Islands. What does this mean? This means that the game is closed for new players. All the islands are always distributed among the top corporations and beginners will have only two choices: to join these corporations either do not have a chance to compete. Alpha-alliance never can fight against gamma alliances. I personally remember how easily we shot 10-15 beginners who guarded their miners with two Mesmer.

2) Hunting.
Should be one of the most dynamic aspects, but it is also now in a corrupted state.
Currently this process is much more interesting than the mining because here you have a confrontation with artificial intelligence (by the way good enough intelligence). But there are two problems:
a) To get resources and plasma by hunting, you'll need firepower. However firepower is achieved only after you can use a heavy robot otherwise the process will be very long. (Even with a heavy robot process can take a long time.)
b) You wont be able to get rare materials. Even if you will find T3 equipment, you do not make sense to recycle because it needed in manufacturing.

3) Performance of assignments:
In the game there are assignements that are the only way to improve the rare technologies. Alpha alliances can collect it piece by piece. They will always trail behind in development. In addition it is nessesary the repeating, that just routine.

The conclusion is that absolutely all the PvE content is boring and defective. According to the rules of any game design, solo PvE content is an introduction for the players. That is, until they are weak, they should engage in PvE. However, they can only perform the assignments because of in other aspects they will need help older characters.
Newbie can't straight determine their choice - to join an existing corporation or create a new one.
If they creates a new corporation - they will forced to join an existing alliance else they have small chance to survive.
Alpha-alliance will not be able to compete with gamma alliance. Difference between alpha and beta-islands is two technological levels of production. Pure alpha-maker able to produce only T2 equipment.
Anyone can say anything, but the meaning one: the game design entirely linear.

My suggestion is the same:
1) Introduce the deployable mining facilities for automatic extraction the resources.
Even mining characters should not waste all their time directly for the extraction of raw materials. It's better to busy them on protection or maintenance instead of killing the time for looking at the screen where nothing happens.
On the beta islands should present contested stationary mining facilities that do not depend on the owning the outposts. These facilities should bring various kind of resources that can be collected by haulers.
Make available extraction of rare materials in peaceful areas. Alternatively, you can do the following:
There are regions on the islands in the game. Each outpost should control his area. Corporation-owner should be able to declare the peaceful area around outposts (once every 12 hours, or until the other corporation will retake control). Players should be able to evacuate their assets. Also, switching zones in PvP mode shall only be possible after 12 hours. (12 hours cooldown between switching + 12 hours after switching = 24 hours for players to evacuate assets)

2) Make hunting available for everyone. In PvE, solo players in battle mechs should have almost the same efficiency as the veterans with follow bots. (Global buff alpha-terminals or something else)

3) Each Assignment must give a greater reward for the first execution per day, and lesser for repetitive. That is, should be more useful to perform different tasks every day, instead of repeating the same.

Few words about market:
Market never was a game-way to get some thing. It is really bad idea to try force stimulate market. Everything should be able to get at least by two non-market ways.
If people starts buy something on market - it means they can't get it in game. It means he can't get some aspect. Then he starts use non-game aspects like market.
In another words for example: if player can't run assignments on beta, he starts buy tokens on market. As result - assignment concept useless. and so on.

P.S. I do not wait anything except trolling especially from guys from PHM. Also i expect ignoring from DeV's. But God seen. I've tried.

The theory of mutual interests
Why the crybabies wins?
Где Ханя - там победа (с)
DEV Zoom: No need to speculate...

Re: PvE gameplay report and some advices

Agree with most points, especially deployable mining facilities.

PS: In before STC, CIR, PHM and other *** derail this thread.

Re: PvE gameplay report and some advices

Can't disagree with your points, I said the same things about mining and PVE in another topic.

I think we both know it'll get ignored though, but it's important to at least try and save them from their own stupidity. smile

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: PvE gameplay report and some advices

Just a few remarks:

1) here, you're running on the assumption that one player chooses to execute the entire industrial cycle; he mines, refines, prototypes (might as well in this scenario), reverse engineers and then produces Arbalests. I would say it's more like:

- the miner: a player that gathers ore/plants, then proceeds to sell these materials to buy extensions and better equipment (optionally: refine the materials into commodities, then sell those - this is after that miner is in the game for a few months, so his extensions and relations allow this to be feasible, e.g. high enough)
- the producer: buys the materials he needs, produces, then sells with a margin (note that I feel it should be a primary design goal that any player with the desire to manufacture should be able to pick up this profession from the get go, which is extremely unfeasible right now)
- what's left is prototyping, refining (usually a specialization with overlap between different industrial roles), reverse engineering, etc. (Again, I feel the prototyping/RE part of the game severely limits newer industrial-oriented players from partaking in anything other than mining. This includes, but is not limited to, the lack of mechanics to trade CT's and such.)

It should be noted here that rare minerals are accessible to anyone with the market mechanic. Demand will drive the price up, which is exactly why a corporation should risk operating on beta/gamma.

3) on assignments; the progression is actually pretty good early on, but seems to come to a complete standstill while running level 4 assignments. The rewards do not increase, L4 beta assignments are poorly rewarded (thus not interesting at all with the risks involved), and most players probably pushing for mechs (which makes sense from the 'fun' perspective, bigger is better) still run into small bots they virtually can't hit. This progression wall comes in at about a week of playing, I'd reckon usually well before the trial ends too. I playtested this about two months ago, completely dedicating an account to a new PVE (combat) character, playing for about 2 hours/day. Let me point out that with a fresh perspective, the game is interesting PVE-wise, but only early on.

Overall, your perspective on the market mechanic is oddly cynical. I would say the market doesn't make item gathering mechanics useless, rather it is the primary drive for those mechanics. Like in my thread on commodities, I'd like to say that I strongly feel that balancing a functional market (this is not a question of lacking game mechanics), no matter how high or low the population, should be a primary concern.

5 (edited by Hunter 2013-06-18 12:00:46)

Re: PvE gameplay report and some advices

You try to stick "market concept" to the "game concept". I'm sorry, but you wrong here. Let me explain some things:
Imagine the player's requirements to any game...
If you going to separate players on groups (by their demands) and satisfy everyone, you need to develop concept for everyone. The mechanizm of interaction could be the market.
Obviously here a big problems:
1) Time spends for wide developing fully functional concepts, suitable for it's group. As result you divide your time spends for it.
2) Problems of balancing between this group. How you would balance game time of fighter and harvester? Anyway you need to spend time for balancing instead of developing new concepts. We all seen that DeV's made gamma enough fast. But remained time they worked on balance.
Let's look at goals of such spending of DeV's time: To improve market.
By my opinion such goal not justifies the means.
Now let's look at my point: Everyone should be able to any concept. Any concept should be interesting for everyone.
Who said that currently noone from fighters do not want to mine resources? Maybe they are not mine because of boring?
In this case the market looks like appendicitis. But actually not. This is mechanizm for players who able, but exactly do not want use differend aspects.
If you look at history, you will see that market relations appeared after appearing surpluses.

TL;DR: Specialisations with interacting through the market requires greater DeV's time for wide developing and balancing game aspects. Making things able and usable for everyone gives equal conditions for players and brings diversity. As result easier balancing and more time for development the new content.

The theory of mutual interests
Why the crybabies wins?
Где Ханя - там победа (с)
DEV Zoom: No need to speculate...

Re: PvE gameplay report and some advices

There are also two conflicting points of views here. I'm saying specializations makes this game meaningful, and to be honest, it's the central idea this game was designed around. A functional market-driven sandbox is actually not about the content at all, since the stories are player-driven. Having a functional, mildly entertaining storyline to help familiarize most new players with the working details does help (which, granted, falls short right now), but the complete lack of a functional market where most of this hinges on is pretty much what inspired you to bring up the idea to essentially remove extensions or extension requirements. That's what I'm getting out your post at least.

Re: PvE gameplay report and some advices

Hunter have you played Eve before? It has the exact same mining mechanics and has 1/2 a million active accounts. I'm all for making this game much more casual friendly, and mining mechanics are far from ideal, I have yet to find any convincing solutions, other than gathering resources afk/offline like Syndic suggested on an  another thread.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: PvE gameplay report and some advices

Doek wrote:

There are also two conflicting points of views here. I'm saying specializations makes this game meaningful, and to be honest, it's the central idea this game was designed around. A functional market-driven sandbox is actually not about the content at all, since the stories are player-driven. Having a functional, mildly entertaining storyline to help familiarize most new players with the working details does help (which, granted, falls short right now), but the complete lack of a functional market where most of this hinges on is pretty much what inspired you to bring up the idea to essentially remove extensions or extension requirements. That's what I'm getting out your post at least.

The problem with the system we have now, is it encourages multiple accounts.  why depend on the market when i can run a second account, and just make all my own stuff anyway?

Re: PvE gameplay report and some advices

Celebro wrote:

Hunter have you played Eve before? It has the exact same mining mechanics and has 1/2 a million active accounts. I'm all for making this game much more casual friendly, and mining mechanics are far from ideal, I have yet to find any convincing solutions, other than gathering resources afk/offline like Syndic suggested on an  another thread.

SWG had a good resource gathering system before JTLS after that the game tanked. I would be for a system that would attempt something similar as an option. You drop a mining tower on a field and it mines it slowly allowign you to do other things... but even then this game is totally different than SWG. I cant imagine any type of automated mining system being beneficial to the game as it would completely eliminate any resemblance of a market. but then again the towers could be nice targets for roamers.

just a thought

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Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

Re: PvE gameplay report and some advices

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhiJtotZNWk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoKhAvyWOPs

The theory of mutual interests
Why the crybabies wins?
Где Ханя - там победа (с)
DEV Zoom: No need to speculate...

Re: PvE gameplay report and some advices

Mining towers on alpha are complete nogo and on beta it would first ensure that new player without access to large corp have worse ability to catch up with vets than before. Imagine the ore price if two large corps have an gamma island full of mining tower, and if it is limited than take second and third island as well with current population this would break market.

Re: PvE gameplay report and some advices

I agree with you Goffer about the mining towers, but the market is already broken.....

Re: PvE gameplay report and some advices

i had similar ideas on the mining here on the forum long ago. and they were shut down by the "miners".

most used agument: "mining that way is fun for us".

well no comment, but it seams there are really ppl that enjoy standing on one spot and watch your lasers. well has to be because there are plenty of miners in eve as well staring at astroids.

Re: PvE gameplay report and some advices

Mining really fits for some types who can not give 100% attention to the game all the time. For these mining towers to work, they would really need to be slow and possibly energy hungry on top of that.

Re: PvE gameplay report and some advices

*raises hand*

Yep, 100% against mining towers. They create an income source that can operate while the player is doing something else. First, I think what's his name said he wanted them so he could make NIC while PVPing, to support more PVP'ing.  Secondly, corps that need ore, but either don't have mining accounts or accounts willing to mine 24/7 to get the minerals they need.

The first type, for profit, needs to be fixed by giving those players a way to earn nic while PVPing, not by giving them a 'hands free' income source.

Secondly, lack of players is a real issue. But the resolution should be to increase the yeild for miners, not for corps to not need miners. However, the issue of overly abundant resources needs to be addressed before it makes sense to increase yeilds.

To be clear, I would like to see a change where if a miner can collect 10M units in 4 hours (as an example), that same miner should be able to collect 10M units in 1 hr. The issue is that 10M/4h would be 60M per day, while 10M/1 would be 240M per day. The mechanic change would have to allow faster collection, but not allow increased daily yields.

Yeild is controlled by units per cycle and is skill/item based. Faster collection would be bots with more arms, or better cycle times, which would not directly increase the daily yeild.

However, because ore is so plentiful, daily yields would still increase; which defeats the purpose of the change; to allow miners time to do something else with their game session, or prevent them from burning out being 1 miner trying to support a whole corp.

Re: PvE gameplay report and some advices

Eff me. On this I agree with Arga. Eff mining towers....

Those of you lucky enough to have your lives, take them with you. However, leave the mods you've lost. They belong to me now.

Scarab Kill Count:2

Re: PvE gameplay report and some advices

Guys... Wake up.
The people not plays the game because of boring content. Nobody want mine - remember this. The people looking fun.
There is only two choises: Completely remove mining or make it useful. Current state are worst.

The theory of mutual interests
Why the crybabies wins?
Где Ханя - там победа (с)
DEV Zoom: No need to speculate...

18 (edited by Martha Stuart 2013-06-20 18:15:26)

Re: PvE gameplay report and some advices

Not all people find mining terrible.  Mining/production is one of few areas left where people can do as much or as little as they want.  I personally am a large scale mass producer and want to be able to mine in massive quantities to support my production habit.  It is one of the few areas of the game that directly reward the amount of time and work you put into it.

Personally I think Arti-hunting is about as much fun as ripping my own fingernails off, and about as rewarding. But that doesn't mean everyone hates Arti-hunting.  It's just something I personally don't like, and don't take part in unless they are giving me those guardian beacon things smile