Is this plasma only?

There were a lot of issues with running PIE as a capitalist corp, but the biggest hurdle was:

Lack of Corporation tools - Most corps default to communist because all of the accounting you need to do for capitalist corps has to be done offline. The most basic tool, access to corporate funds, is all-or-nothing. At min. being able to place a cap on the NIC size of order buys/sells is required; and the basic concept of being able to let memebers draw 'up to X NIX' per day, or pushing out weekly 'salary'. In addition to accounting tools, there needs to be tools to set up an 'army'. Corp based research is a good start, as was the internal market, but there also needs to be an ERP framework, even if it's only the ability to make ingame notes.

It's important for the economy (Market) for the game to support capitalist corps because the game experience is better when you are in corporation. The problem is that when your player base gets mostly installed into communist corps, there's very little reason for them to use the market, so it's just freelancers and the odd capitalist guy using the open market. Oh, and new players that havn't joined a communist corp yet.

There is nothing wrong with the communist corp model, it just shouldn't be the only model because there are no tools to do anything else.

Note: Internal markets are not the problem. Its idiotic to think that items corps are putting on internal markets would ever be offered to the public. The internal market (for communist corps) is simply a way to allow players to access items without giving them security access to entire hangers.

I can agree that internal markets are NOT the problem alone.

That is only if you assume a corp that uses an internal market never sells the same (type) items on the open market.

Good point as long as they are low priced and not too low that someone can just grab them all.

Edit: Also the main point was more around base price of items. And I was also hoping for this to raise other issues too. Like the lack of volume between raw and refined materials etc. Really less focus on internal markets and should have been left out of my beginning topic.

Plasma is a silly concept at mimicking bounties from EVE. It discourages active ratting near spawns, because there's no way of making enough plasma for your average capitalist pigdog to replace his bot. Whoever ganks him gets all the plasma.

ok so add 4 hours to that to get the tokens to buy beacons, I know for a fact that the <12> and 62nd guys are making tokens as fast as I am so you know exactly what im talking about.

And yes 1 billion NIC in a day is just plasma.  I recycle everything I don't need for production and am hording the kernals until after the patch.

but total time to make 1 billion nic is still less than a day.

I agree with Arga, internal market is not a problem  , its a corporation tool that can be used for the benefit of both models. Having internal buy orders at convenient locations will help capitalist corps too. The reason to place sell/buy orders on the public market is because you get a better deal that's all.

I learned a lot from PIE's failure as a capitalist model, basically trying to run a corp as a small business in not particularly fun after a while with lack of corp tools. Better to run a capitalist corp as independent players helping each other defending corp resources and sharing corp operation profits. For that to work there needs to be a working market though where you outsource most of your production to other players.

I would start off by completely disagreeing that you cant do a capitalistic model, as were doing it successfully, and I do believe, please correct me if I'm wrong here, AIC is doing the same. 

Quite frankly I'm seeing a lot of people coming back to the game and for some reason all we want to do is just start changing everything.  There are things wrong but by no means terribly in dire need of repair. 

This isn't a "tool" problem, this isn't a "communistic" problem this isn't a "ratting" problem.  It's a player problem.

We drive the eco if this game, so why can't we drive it?

This is the question that were all trying to answer, why are the players of the game unwilling to use the current market system.

Answer, because the players of the game don't need to, we have "stuff" everywhere, were not "new" players, we have been around the block a long time, a side from the cortex market, and token market we really don't need to touch anything as we already have it.

What does this do to IF newer player's come into the game?  Well its a major turn off as we all know, but again this is a player problem, we don't need to start seeding T1-T4 mods just because.

As one player not being able to "make" nic, this is a complete farce.  This game is incredibly EASY to make nic in, so much so we have OTHER players complain that one side has too much of it. 

In sort Nic isn't the problem, or how easy it is to obtain it. 

Start asking the people who have stayed around to enjoy the game, how to make Nic, and become successful, oh the story of how to do, they could tell.

In my opinion the change that needs to happen, is already happening, its what the Dev's are working on right now, that will start to fix the markets, slowly.

I was mainly looking at what sets the base price for the npc seeded items. Which made me realize that they are not based on the materials they are made of.

No tool change needed. Only a base value for commodities and also maybe the volume of commdities being different then the raw. But I would settle for just a commodities base price being set by npc buy orders.

All comes down to the hopes for the changes being made by the DEV right now help keep players for the future. I totally understand that and I hope for it too.

A bit cynical outlook on this game you seem to have anni. 

I would implore you to take a look at http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … -currency/ it might explain why.

Re-read the Dev Blog and you should understand of what to I'm referring toward.

Base lines are just that, if all else fails you have your base line items.  You, if I understand you here, are referring to the NPC orders for certain items, T1 amps T1 stuff in general ect ect.  These are made to not be cheaper then what you can actually make, or to even be somewhere in line with mineral  costs or production costs  as if they were you would see with what happened to colx charges at the start.  People will buy massive stocks, hold them, refine them ect ect. and make crazy amounts of nic, OR crazy amounts of minerals.  Yes this takes the initial inputs of nic.

If we would introduce a base line of minerals we really would see much of a change as there is already a base line for titan, 0.22 PU, and HDT, 0.20 PU.  As you can see this is effecting markets very little as titan is trading much higher, and HDT is somewhat higher.

Really the only reason I could see this needing to be done is to create a market for minerals, but, even that is completely unnecessary as minerals are already being bought up with intense demand for them.  We are seeing some minerals double in price as people just cant, or are not willing to, mine them.

I think your reasoning behind a base line is to create a base line "price" for items, but with out competition FOR said items they can set whatever price they wish. 

Were right back the people problem, not a market problem.

In my definition of a capitalist system, workers are compensated for the time they spend at the company (hopefully being productive). They then take that money and spend it in the system (the market). The 'company' makes money, but each worker also makes money.

A coporation that is communually working together to make NIC is not a strictly a 'capitalist corp', its a communist corp that with a common goal of increasing wealth, instead of holding property. Some of the hallmarks of this type of setup are players that mine but sell to the corp under market price. That's charity, not capitalism.

Alright let's get this straight, the market has no problems aside from a few tweaks and maybe a fancier UI. All round what directly or indirectly supports the market has a problem.

Strictly speaking that's not a capitalist corp you are right, though in a gaming sense it is because you are striving for your players to become better at wealth making for themselves with corp operations, knowledge, fittings, tactics and socializing which helps, the difference is wealth is spread amongst corp members not pooled in the corp coffers.

It's not charity if the corp then sells items internally at lower prices