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Re: Tyrannos shield tank

You dont care about this game anymore?

Well Sir, I do care about this game, quite abit.  More then a bit, alot.
Indy, if you want to buff Ictus then step back and take a look at the bigger picture.  What we already have are ictus that are nearly perfect, and now you want to basically take them back to the way the were ( you really wouldn't know how awesome they were as you didn't care about the game then or now).  Changing the Ictus is NOT the way to go, at all.

Lets take a look at what people seem to be *** about most of the time.  You cannot 1 v 1 a Tyr MK2, in a DPS bot with a regular fit (guns tuner ect.)  But guess what?  You can 1 v 1 a Tyr mk1 in a DPS bot AND break it.  Its crazy I know, who woulda thought. 

Lets look a bit more at the specific fit that most are having a hard time at, the basically unbreakable Tyr mk2 shield fit.  With its crazy recharge, 1 v 1 you just cant break it with out some from of neuts, or drainers.

Lets look even closer, were both agreeing that 1 v 1 it cant be killed, but the question is asked can he kill you?  Can he cycle fast enough so you dont get a shot at him?  In most cases I can usually get some good shots in (it takes about 2 to 3 shots to kill a tyr mk2).  So what were looking at is you cant kill him, if he drops his shield he is going to get shot most of the time.

Now lets take into account that most of the time people do not PVP solo if at all.  Most of the time its three to four people coming at another group or a solo guy.

What this is really coming down to is do people want bots that can "last" for quite some time in combat, or do we want bots the basically insta die to anything out there.

As it stands now, blue basically is insta death with extreamly high alpha, Green can last and last and last for a very long time, with terrible damage, or DPS.  Red is some where in the middle using a longer range, and a buffer to buffer tank, for a greater time then the blue, but less then green.

Its actually funny that Anni would say that no one knows how to counter a tyr mk2, in fact nearly the entire server knows how to counter them.

Hell go ahead and nerf the tyr mk2, and see who will be left that wants to pilot them.

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Re: Tyrannos shield tank

Celebro wrote:

First of, I am green pilot .

Can someone explain, why a shield tanked tyrannos (mech class) cannot kill any tanked combat mech even if they dont shoot back?


Thank you in advance.

FYP

28 Reply by Tux (edited by Tux 2012-11-16 00:10:38)

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Re: Tyrannos shield tank

I have to say, I have read a lot of inaccurate and off the wall suggestions about the tyro tank. Honestly to the people that encounter it you have several options run away or kill it .. but to kill it you need a combination of things neuts (they do not have to be on an ictus) or massive DPS (2 H Mechs can do it).

This tank has such low DPS that another non fail fit mk2 mech could walk circles around it and or just walk away from it.

Guess what you can also ECM this guy so all he can do is sit there and look scary (or dumb), either way assuming all MK2 mechs should be able to kill all other MK2 mechs no matter their fits is simply wrong.

Can a light kill another tanked light? Not always
Can an assault kill another tanked assault? Not always
Can a Heavy kill another tanked heavy? Not always ….. you see where Im going with this hopefully

Just because you cannot kill something 1v1 doesn’t mean it broken TANKS should always need to be killed by several opponents or its not a tank.

Do not be fooled by the Chinese finger trap aka tyroMK2 tank. You can walk away!!!

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29 Reply by Lemon (edited by Lemon 2012-11-16 01:33:41)

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Re: Tyrannos shield tank

Ok let me break this down for everyone here in to VERY VERY SIMPLE ways. As you have ALL of the VETERAN PVPERS in agreement on this and all the "normals" as industrial has pointed out as not getting it....

A) Insert ERP Artemis into every line Tyran mk 2 and being luling
B) ONLY ask your self: How much should a tyran mk 2 be able to tank? (Of *** blindly dpsing it while tanked)

The Tyrannos can be breaten 1v1 by another mech that isnt a ictus very easily. What seems to not be able to be comprehended is this idea that dps>all.

Theres a old saying "Survival of the fittest"

Lets use critical thinking and context clues to survive against a tyran mk 2.

>Tyrannos mk 2 spotted by (PLAYER)
>Its moving very slowly away while you pursue (Player)
*Hmm if im able to catch it then it is either moving slower or it is fail/tank fit.

^WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? His TANK>YOUR TANK because your faster as in tanking nerfs your speed. hard to know this  i know right?

>Get within 400m of Tyrannos
*ITS NOT FIRING*

^OH SNAP CLUE: hmmm no RE's or being locked beyond 500m means his headslots arn't for range.... DING DING DING DONT GO NEAR THIS MOFO.

>you keep running in at 300m
*Locked and OH SNAP NEUT

^awe dam now hes can out last you energy and tank wise... hmm not looking so good for you. I WOULD TURN AROUND

>hit 200m
*Awe *** dog now your at 1/2 accum and demobed

^this is when you know your ***, no matter what god given grace in the world nothing could save you at this point GG SON.

Hmmm i asked my self there 4 times if i should turn and NOT ENGAGE because my SPEED DPS GLASS CANNON COOKIE CUTTER BUILD cant out live a TANK BUILD 1v1.

i know its hard to expect people to think beyond running in blindly and lock firing until a can is there or they see terminal.

@industrial-> Sadly your logic is so flawed it hurts me to even respond to it. The pvp in PO is basically if you listen to the majority on balance, you cause more QQ because the few things they are so vocal on are done by the few who laugh at your ideas of balance. When you are allowed to make the changes all you get are more QQ threads because the few things we had before to *** you in small niche situations grows and becomes easier.  So yes please change it more buff my ictus i welcome it and change my mesmer mk 2's fall off to somthing  else how about reactor ceiling bonus?

P.S. - Be interesting to see what happens if this "Minority" you speak  of were to band together...

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Re: Tyrannos shield tank

hmm, can't wait for the next tournament big_smile

will the team that wins against the Chaos setup without an ictus get an extra cookie? yarr

*hint: Tournament was officially confirmed tonight at the usual places for official statements!*

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Re: Tyrannos shield tank

Much better, was not that hard, isn't it? Now that guy got his answers and will not start such threads anymore.

To fix the result, repeat with me: "Explayning is a key. Explayning can deal with balance threads. Explaining can make this game better. I will always explain when they ask."

@lemon: you didn't got "minority and majority" example, but don't be sad. I'll find a way to clear things specially to you anyway.

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Re: Tyrannos shield tank

Wha!!!! Speed KILLS, WHO WOULDA THOUGHT.


We might have to dumb down our posts even more so Indy gets it.

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Re: Tyrannos shield tank

Merkle wrote:

Wha!!!! Speed KILLS, WHO WOULDA THOUGHT.


We might have to dumb down our posts even more so Indy gets it.

Again, I don't care. Answer to those who ask, not to me.

34 Reply by Goffer (edited by Goffer 2012-11-16 08:51:09)

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Re: Tyrannos shield tank

Industrial Sector wrote:
Goffer wrote:

If you show me one way to get 1 Shielded Tyrannos down with 2 Kains, I agree, that Tyrannos is not overpowered.

2 Kains can carry 4 neuts/drains to deal with Tyrannos shield. Same for 1 ERP Kain down with 2 %mechname% btw and for 1 Armored Arte...oh wait.

First of all two Kains with together 4  Neuts are a bad joke, no pvpler I know would take that fit out in the fields unless they just fit because they new they need to conter shild, and even then it is bad joke, because there are quite better possibilities if you know you gonna conter shield fit.

While I never checked, I doubt, that you break a Tyrannos Energy with draining Kains, I assume you need Neuts, which requires the Kain to take a lot care of energy.
Dunno if 2 Kains have enough Akku for one skilled Tyrannos to just neut him before running out of Akku when they don't have rep or hardener running and the Tyrannos is afk. But from tankfits I have seen, I'm pretty sure you need to gimp your Kain even further to get this job with rep running by filling your legs with Akkurecharge/Extender. I mean I'm not talking about how to kill a Tyrannos who's driver is afk with a setup that requires you even to run from hostile Arkes as you would not survive them, when looking for a Kain fit to counter Tyrannos.

ECM to death is something that can happen, but can fail as using ECM is still gambling. In general a Kain can't ECM forever due to his Akku, while Tyrannos has a lot time.

There are for sure some  possibilities I haven't considered, but all in all, in the rock paper scissor where blue is the enemy of green and fears red, there is now way for blue to beat green when both driving mech and green is shielded. And I really doubt, that 2 Kains have a reasonable chance unless use that specialised fits, that will fail against most other enemies they could encounter (including some light EW bots), and even then I don't think that Tyrannos will die and Kain survive if all involved agents knew how to play.

Yeah, Kain is always the faster and can counter all shield fits by running. I accept, that retreat is sometimes the win of a battle, but I'm not playing games, when the only thing I can do is to run away whenever enemy comes in sight and you call that "balancing". Especially as long as Kain is the fastest mech but all light and assault can outrun Kain.

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Re: Tyrannos shield tank

Goffer wrote:

...

very good post goffer.

i dont have a perfect solution that will solve this. but there are a number of factors that favor the tyrannos over the other mechs. most of them have been discussed in seperate discussions more then once. but the sum makes the tyrannos superiour in pvp. and that not just by a slight bit.

and besides that some ppl say that tyrannos is slowest and least dps. jea but that comes from missile weapons. that is a thing where dps balances vs line of sight. not against "you can not kill me".

tyrannos has a major point. and that are the 2 utiliy slots. you can use them for neuts, drains, or even 2 t4 med autocannons witch will bring them dps wise quite close to the others. this also allows a varity of fitts that the other mechs cant do. thei can either fit guns or fit utility, but not both. if you strip 2 guns from a kain or a artemis then they are simply gimped to no dps at all. the tyrannos can keep his dps (even if its less) and do other things. or push his dps. the other bots dont have that option because a missile on a bot without bonus is not of use at all. and there are no missile launchers that compare to the autocannons that are ballanced without any bot boni.

and then the main issue with the energy, not only do the tyrannos dont need the energy for his weapons, but he also has plenty of that. while the others have problems running thair bots stable with dps and a bit rep, the tyrannos can tank with its shield and/or can use his utility without worring about accu for its guns.

so even if we add utility optiont o the missile slots of blue and yellow they still will not have that option in the way the tyrannos has. because they will no be able to make real use of it.

even with that change the tyrannos will just win. if a kain has neuts the tyrannos can have them too. if both neut each other guess who will be out first. and guess how much a kain or even worse a artemis can do without power.

something is greatly out of ballance, but i canr tell you if you can fix it with changing the shiled (what will be bad for other shielded bots) or if you can fix it by changeing the tyrannos. maybe its both. mabybe its something totlay different.
one solution that was mentioned by someone (cant remember who) was to disconnect the shield from the accu and have its own mechanic. so you will have "shield booster" module like a repper that reps your armor.

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Re: Tyrannos shield tank

It's simple , just remove the BONUS : " Accumulator recharge time " and tyrannos will become balanced.

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Re: Tyrannos shield tank

Heliaso wrote:

It's simple , just remove the BONUS : " Accumulator recharge time " and tyrannos will become balanced.

I'm not sure what kind of idea it was to put that on a green bot in the first place...While at it change the goddamn falloff bonus on the Kain =p

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Re: Tyrannos shield tank

Dreadchain, the reasons are kinda given in my first post in this topic. You can PM me if you want a detailed version wink

@ Goffer: Drainer vs. Tyrannos.

maxed extensions (accu, energy management, adv. robotics)
MK1 Tyrannos has:
2600 AP / 79.8s ~ 32.58 AP/s average, 65.16 AP/s peak (8 pmr)
add a single t4 recharger:
2600 AP / 65.83s ~ 39.5 AP/s average, 79 AP/s peak (8 pmr)

If you fit your Kains with
2x "T4 Med drainer", (-115 AP / 10s / 10°)
lvl7 "Convergent Eletrostatics" and (dispersion down to 7.9°)
lvl5 "Improved Energy drain" (10% more drain)

you will get 2x -126.5 AP / 10s ~ -25.3 AP/s

summa sumarum: two of such kains can hardly counter the pure accumulator recharge. If their remaining weaponslots are enough to bring down the shield with additional DPS then depends on the tyrannos' fit.

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Re: Tyrannos shield tank

Heliaso wrote:

It's simple , just remove the BONUS : " Accumulator recharge time " and tyrannos will become balanced.

no

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Re: Tyrannos shield tank

Heliaso wrote:

It's simple , just remove the BONUS : " Accumulator recharge time " and tyrannos will become balanced.

yes

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Re: Tyrannos shield tank

Listen guys, Merkle and Lemon both have said this time and time and time and time and time and time again.  I can't even keep up with the amount of threads.  YOU FIT FOR WHAT YOUR GOING TO KILL.  If I know I am going out solo roaming in a kain my worst enemy is going to be a tackle bot I can't our DPS (trioar MK2).  There are three counters to this:  ECM/Suppressor/Sensor Amp,Out Demob fit, or neuts/drainer on the kain.

It really doesn't take rocket science to figure this out to 1v1 a tyrannos.  You just have to fit for it.  Neuts/drainer +medium launchers (Mickey Mouse!)  I know people cringe seeing these fits but you have to be creative.  Or even better:  Fit an injector and once the tyrannos thinks he capped you out has you demobbed and drops his shield to DPS you pop your injector charge, load mags and instant pop him.

The reason why these pvpers get upset with the "common people"  Is because through trial and error they have overcome and learned from it and realized its highly situational and there is not a "IWIN" button.

http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=250149

Kain with Neuts.  It's possible.

http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=250097

Both tyrannos had less then 20% health and "WE" forgot to fit Demobs, injectors, and neuts.  It was slowly about timing your shots and it was a nice 25 Minute battle between great tyrannos pilots.

Time you shots, fit for your kills and get out there and have fun.  Nothing broken.

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Re: Tyrannos shield tank

Ville, ur totally right, but that didn´t stop the DEV´s to nerf me Trojar MK2 Tackler bout just a year ago, after a certain group of ppl where whining the DEV to death about how "unkillable" it apparently was,  or Lemon´s ERP Tank Artemies for that matter.
Its all down to rock, paper, siccors, some dps whores should just start to think a little bit out of the box. But on the Tyrannos side, the totally out of balanced accumulator recharge rate is just not comprehendable.

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Re: Tyrannos shield tank

Should this not be moved to Balancing forun section? wink

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Re: Tyrannos shield tank

Ville wrote:

http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=250149
Kain with Neuts.  It's possible.
.

Well...

1. This guy has lv5 skills
2. There was an ictus neuting him too (5 or 6 people total) ?

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Re: Tyrannos shield tank

I wonder how you sing your song Mobi if you would on the CHAOS side. Or in case if we deployed our beasts during norhoop wars. lol:lol::lol::lol::lol:

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Re: Tyrannos shield tank

MoBIoS wrote:

Ville, ur totally right, but that didn´t stop the DEV´s to nerf me Trojar MK2 Tackler bout just a year ago, after a certain group of ppl where whining the DEV to death about how "unkillable" it apparently was,  or Lemon´s ERP Tank Artemies for that matter.
Its all down to rock, paper, siccors, some dps whores should just start to think a little bit out of the box. But on the Tyrannos side, the totally out of balanced accumulator recharge rate is just not comprehendable.

With all respect to Lemon, his erp artemis was killed by small group of t1 assaults. Just think a bit how.
With all respect to kain pilots, 1 Kain can kill shielded tyr easily with DPS. Just think a bit how.

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Re: Tyrannos shield tank

@Dread He ran from TMB to FB, aye pod grabbed him 1200 from Tele.  I ran from TMB hit him twice with Neuts and aye pod nailed him.  I'm not picking on him dread he's just an example.

@MoBIos I have a fraps footage or 1 trioar Mk2 taking a SAP on Dana tanking 7 mechs/Heavys for 5 minutes until someone texted the Ictus pilot. lol

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Re: Tyrannos shield tank

Annihilator wrote:

Dreadchain, the reasons are kinda given in my first post in this topic. You can PM me if you want a detailed version wink

@ Goffer: Drainer vs. Tyrannos.

maxed extensions (accu, energy management, adv. robotics)
MK1 Tyrannos has:
2600 AP / 79.8s ~ 32.58 AP/s average, 65.16 AP/s peak (8 pmr)
add a single t4 recharger:
2600 AP / 65.83s ~ 39.5 AP/s average, 79 AP/s peak (8 pmr)

If you fit your Kains with
2x "T4 Med drainer", (-115 AP / 10s / 10°)
lvl7 "Convergent Eletrostatics" and (dispersion down to 7.9°)
lvl5 "Improved Energy drain" (10% more drain)

you will get 2x -126.5 AP / 10s ~ -25.3 AP/s

summa sumarum: two of such kains can hardly counter the pure accumulator recharge. If their remaining weaponslots are enough to bring down the shield with additional DPS then depends on the tyrannos' fit.

Solution: Secondary Ictus Account.

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Re: Tyrannos shield tank

BE SPECIFIC PEOPLE....MK1's Are Extremely easy to kill....MK2's are the tanky variation, and those can be killed.

Alex - "With all respect to kain pilots, 1 Kain can kill shielded tyr easily with DPS. Just think a bit how."

TRUE - But for some reason people don't believe it!!

As to compare this to the Troiar Mk2, yea lets throw that out there as a excuse when they have LITTLE to no common line at all.

Hell if people are wanting a small change, and yes I MEAN SMALL change, lower the acc recharge skill value by 1% per lvl. Start SMALL and work up.

Right now Tank is all the Tyr MK2 has, that's it.

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Re: Tyrannos shield tank

Heres a Radical idea:

Blue>Green

Speed Fit: Kain>Tyrannos
Range fit: Tyrannos>Kain

zomg blue isnt greater than green BUFF MY KAIN RANGE....

^False: you have speed to run his *** *** down


Tank Fit: Tyrannos mk 2>Kain mk2

*HOWEVER* a kain mk 2 can kill a tyrannos mk 2 tank....*****

Why? Not because Tyrannos is OP but becasue they nerfed Armor tanking.

Tank fits NEED and SHOULD be viable. It is your job to fit to counter it.

Ask Yourself this:

If you fit 1 ECM could he keep you in range?
If you fit 1 supressor could he neut you at firing range?
If you fit autocannon's does 0 accum matter?


I for one believe that if a person cant figure out the door is unlocked let them keep banging at the door...
sooner or later they have to try the handle....

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