126 (edited by Obi Wan Kenobi 2012-09-14 06:09:00)

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

@ blackomen: well i hope they alteast having RED roaming spawns on alpha 1s. live players can always see those coming & move away / kill them off. Macro *** must die every chance they can

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

127 (edited by Hastet 2012-09-14 09:19:33)

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Don't know if someone already suggested this, but here's my take on the matter:

1. ICE - no problem there. New players in dire need of NIC and without the support of a corp can just straight-up buy ICE units for the older vets to consume.

2. EP-catch up game - imho, i think it would be better if new accounts get a gradual EP modifier that lasts until a certain point. Maybe a 3x EP modifier (18 EP per minute) up to 50k EP, 2.5x mod (15 EP/min) from 50,001 EP up to 100k EP, 2x (12/min) mod from 100,001 EP to 150k EP and 1.5x mod (9/min) from 150,001 EP to 200k EP.

This lets new players develop their core EP skills within about 2-3 months instead of 5 months and - more importantly - leads them to believe they can catch up to to the vets.

128

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Seriously, who cares about a macro miner.... with the rate at which the fields disappear?  A macro will be highly inefficient and uneffective.  This is a great change and I for one am glad to see it.

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Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

when you want to improve the new player experience -

then tell me why "small firearms" are a dead-end decision to level them higher then for unlocking medium ones, but got extension complexity [2].

Their range, their ammo consumption and mass is horrible.
100 Briochit and 100 Hydrobenol for T4 small autocannons - > are you serious?
looking at the list of DIFFERENT ores just to build a single stack small bullets makes me cry.

the disperson makes you even miss assault bots...
and an arkhe runs out of CPU when trying to fit T4's ...

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Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

130 (edited by Tux 2012-09-14 22:42:52)

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

I think an awesome thing for new players to see is the DEV's in game. .. i remember when i first started playing the Dev's would be in game every now and then to show off cool bots (hybrids) and other stuffs.

I think keeping the game world "alive" with dynamic events would be awesome for new players.

I think something that is needed is bi weekly or at least monthly events that keep the game fresh.

The events could be invasions that dropped t4+loots or something... something that made people come together to battle against the DEV's or 6th Star NPC's or something...

oh and when is the next Corp Tourney ?

the last one was awesome and I think it would generate a lot of activity if there was another one planned

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131

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

It's obviously too late by now anyway, but at least I'll be able to say 'I told you so' before ragequitting tongue.


1) ICE

According to the op the main reason for adding ICE is to give new players an option to get some NIC without 'making this option mandatory' and 'making the game pay to win', but that's exactly what you'll achieve:
Of course it's hard to tell at which price ICEs will settle, but because of the money older players have access to and the amounts they're able to farm I think it's a very conservative estimate to say they will settle around 50m - 100m NIC.
Considering the amounts of NIC new players can get, instead of attracting them,  a good percentage of new players might rather be pissed, because they will feel to be forced to pay additional money to compete with other people; especially new players will have absolutely no chance to keep up with others who sell ICE. And at least for new players this will in fact be some sort of 'pay2win'.


Other negative aspects of ICE are:

- It's an open invitation to use bots and/or exploits.

- The possibility for people to get hundrets of millions of NIC that easily (provided that their real life wallet allows it) might have a very negative impact on the already pretty fragile ingame economy.


While it's clear that it would be very convenient especially to vets to trade some of their NIC for game time, this doesn't really make up for further lowering the rate of trial players who subscribe, hurting the ingame economy and adding an 'indirect item shop'.


I have great respect for you guys that you admit mistakes publicly and try to fix them once you realize it, but it won't be that easy to undo ICE in a future patch if things don't work out as expected again. So it might be worth considering to take a few steps back and think about possible problems before making a permanent change that has a great potential to *** things up.



2) additional EP

I'm glad it's 'just' 20k and not some percentage of the maximum EP or something like that.
Here's the 'but':

Everytime you make contents accessible earlier in the game it will have two downsides:

1. The meaning of existing 'early game content' will be reduced.
2. Possible progress will be reduced.


For example people will be able to use Rivelers at the end of the trial period with those additional 20k.

- This will reduce the usefulness of Termises.

- Once a miner is sitting in a Riveler there's not much to upgrade regarding bots; maybe a mk2 at some time, but that's it.

132 (edited by Razuki 2012-09-20 11:57:16)

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Wild future prediction I see

Edit: Oh, can someone tell me some pure p2p games out there that have lasted for years? I would like to know.

133

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Warux wrote:

It's obviously too late by now anyway, but at least I'll be able to say 'I told you so' before ragequitting tongue.


1) ICE

According to the op the main reason for adding ICE is to give new players an option to get some NIC without 'making this option mandatory' and 'making the game pay to win', but that's exactly what you'll achieve:
Of course it's hard to tell at which price ICEs will settle, but because of the money older players have access to and the amounts they're able to farm I think it's a very conservative estimate to say they will settle around 50m - 100m NIC.
Considering the amounts of NIC new players can get, instead of attracting them,  a good percentage of new players might rather be pissed, because they will feel to be forced to pay additional money to compete with other people; especially new players will have absolutely no chance to keep up with others who sell ICE. And at least for new players this will in fact be some sort of 'pay2win'.


Other negative aspects of ICE are:

- It's an open invitation to use bots and/or exploits.

- The possibility for people to get hundrets of millions of NIC that easily (provided that their real life wallet allows it) might have a very negative impact on the already pretty fragile ingame economy.


While it's clear that it would be very convenient especially to vets to trade some of their NIC for game time, this doesn't really make up for further lowering the rate of trial players who subscribe, hurting the ingame economy and adding an 'indirect item shop'.


I have great respect for you guys that you admit mistakes publicly and try to fix them once you realize it, but it won't be that easy to undo ICE in a future patch if things don't work out as expected again. So it might be worth considering to take a few steps back and think about possible problems before making a permanent change that has a great potential to *** things up.



2) additional EP

I'm glad it's 'just' 20k and not some percentage of the maximum EP or something like that.
Here's the 'but':

Everytime you make contents accessible earlier in the game it will have two downsides:

1. The meaning of existing 'early game content' will be reduced.
2. Possible progress will be reduced.


For example people will be able to use Rivelers at the end of the trial period with those additional 20k.

- This will reduce the usefulness of Termises.

- Once a miner is sitting in a Riveler there's not much to upgrade regarding bots; maybe a mk2 at some time, but that's it.

Listen.  Anything that will make the market more fluid will help this game.  Being able to  buy IcE then sell it in order to  go out and pvp  will only help.... Everyone.  Demand for materials increases, production speeds up to meet demand more people farming, more accounts active, Devs making more money which means more content or a peaceful island retreat vacation.

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Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Ville wrote:
Warux wrote:

It's obviously too late by now anyway, but at least I'll be able to say 'I told you so' before ragequitting tongue.


1) ICE

According to the op the main reason for adding ICE is to give new players an option to get some NIC without 'making this option mandatory' and 'making the game pay to win', but that's exactly what you'll achieve:
Of course it's hard to tell at which price ICEs will settle, but because of the money older players have access to and the amounts they're able to farm I think it's a very conservative estimate to say they will settle around 50m - 100m NIC.
Considering the amounts of NIC new players can get, instead of attracting them,  a good percentage of new players might rather be pissed, because they will feel to be forced to pay additional money to compete with other people; especially new players will have absolutely no chance to keep up with others who sell ICE. And at least for new players this will in fact be some sort of 'pay2win'.


Other negative aspects of ICE are:

- It's an open invitation to use bots and/or exploits.

- The possibility for people to get hundrets of millions of NIC that easily (provided that their real life wallet allows it) might have a very negative impact on the already pretty fragile ingame economy.


While it's clear that it would be very convenient especially to vets to trade some of their NIC for game time, this doesn't really make up for further lowering the rate of trial players who subscribe, hurting the ingame economy and adding an 'indirect item shop'.


I have great respect for you guys that you admit mistakes publicly and try to fix them once you realize it, but it won't be that easy to undo ICE in a future patch if things don't work out as expected again. So it might be worth considering to take a few steps back and think about possible problems before making a permanent change that has a great potential to *** things up.



2) additional EP

I'm glad it's 'just' 20k and not some percentage of the maximum EP or something like that.
Here's the 'but':

Everytime you make contents accessible earlier in the game it will have two downsides:

1. The meaning of existing 'early game content' will be reduced.
2. Possible progress will be reduced.


For example people will be able to use Rivelers at the end of the trial period with those additional 20k.

- This will reduce the usefulness of Termises.

- Once a miner is sitting in a Riveler there's not much to upgrade regarding bots; maybe a mk2 at some time, but that's it.

Listen.  Anything that will make the market more fluid will help this game.  Being able to  buy IcE then sell it in order to  go out and pvp  will only help.... Everyone.  Demand for materials increases, production speeds up to meet demand more people farming, more accounts active, Devs making more money which means more content or a peaceful island retreat vacation.

Hope you are right, should work that way in theory.

RIP PERPETUUM

135

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

This is ICE negative aspects what I also dont like, but worked in other game so we hope will work here,

the DEVs did something because the time was close to ...

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Inda wrote:

This is ICE negative aspects what I also dont like, but worked in other game so we hope will work here,

the DEVs did something because the time was close to ...

What do you mean by time was close?

RIP PERPETUUM

137

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

I think what Inda means is that there is a free to play aspect of the game that will bring in a lot of the potential steam community!  I for one like it and think it is a great idea and I hope the Devs can atleast buy a new toaster with the money from the initial ICE purchases.

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Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Ok, so I like the ICE Idea, glad its in game.

The new player EP debate, I have an opinion on and wonder what the rest of the community would think about this.

1. keep the 20k base EP we all started with
2. change the kickstarter EP into an gradually increasing accelerated EP gain for newly subbed accounts over the first month sub
3. for accounts that sub after the first month, continue that gradually increased accelerated EP for another month
4. after the second subbed month, continue the accelerated EP gain, however gradually decrease the extra EP gained over the third and fourth months

This would do a few things, as I perceive it.

It would allow new subs a little catch up period, without dumping a huge chunk of EP on new accounts day 1. This would curb some of the screwups in EP assignment, curtail the NIC farmer scenario presented earlier,  and still give the sense of "catching up" to the vets.

It would also wean new players off the accelerated EP little by little, allowing a slow adjustment towards normal, hopefully killing most of the sudden shock of slower EP gain. I would hope this would help retain some players that would otherwise quit at seeing a sudden change in their EP gain.

Essentially make the new player EP gain for the first four months of subbed time into a bell curve.

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Anni why should you be able to fit t4 anything on an Arhke? Who cares if it has fitting problems and other nerfs, it's the goddamn free starting robot ...

And now for hopefully something productive and related to the topic.

Since the Greenlight exposure the game has had a decent influx of new players. I have found myself on several occasions convo-ing a new player who was a bit lost ... And explaining how things work, even coming to help him with some missions for hours on end to push them in the right direction and accelerate their learning curve so hopefully they stick. I should also add I haven't given any of these players a recruitment pitch, I'm just volunteering my time and nic to simply help noobs and hopefully strengthen the health of the game in the long run. I am by no means the only "regular" to do this; I'm well aware of most vets, friends or foes, that do this also.

But, perhaps a better tutorial, maybe an easier interface with better information and easier to search, is required for the newbs. Some don't understand the basic game concepts, basic fitting  requirements, etc. Assignments in particular seem to be lacking enough info, even for a vet familiar with in game terminology. Case in point are the missions that allow them to be completed on the area of the island ... There are no map indicators that the entire island is in play, only the wording of the mission, which isn't actually clear. Second example is I helped someone attempt to complete a daily mission kill quota ... There was no indication that the player was searching for a dynamic spawn, or any idea that there are several types of npc spawns in game ... I spent hours with this player attempting to find him the correct spawns on alpha 1 ... This was a level 1 mission, in contrast I can run level 6 missions much much faster.

Even myself with knowledge of roaming, dynamic, static, and mission spawns have a hard time recognizing instantly which ones I need to work on .... I have a hard time remembering what it was like in the beginning with no experience to draw upon.

So there's a suggestion in here somewhere. Revamp the tutorials and the information available to the new player, so it gives him a better sense of the nuances of the game.

Thanks, Cass

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Since ICE has already been introduced to the game, this idea is more about the EP catch-up, assuming the extra 20k EP wasnt the end of it.

If there were achievements available to all players which rewarded EP it would grant the opportunity for relative catch-up, percentage-wise, and would mean the player was earning their EP instead of paying to win. The achievements could cover a broad range of topics at first such as "Kill x amount of drones", "Have x sell orders at once", "Research x kernels", "Mine x units of ore", "Complete x assignments". After a period of time, to encourage specialization, the achievements could be limited to one particular branch or specialty such as industry, mining, combat, or support. This would limit the amount of higher achievements attainable while giving new players a direction to guide their EP spending. Also, daily achievements could be made available to players under a certain percentage of the maximum EP, with smaller rewards and requirements, giving new players a way to play catch-up while still earning it.

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Lets just give everyone max miner skills that will fix everything

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Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

remove time based progression and replace it with grind EP!

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
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Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Annihilator wrote:

remove time based progression and replace it with grind EP!

thats the best thing i have heard in a while fuuu

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Zortarg Calltar wrote:
Annihilator wrote:

remove time based progression and replace it with grind EP!

thats the best thing i have heard in a while fuuu

Have you guys lost it. Want to grind some more? NO!

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Celebro wrote:
Zortarg Calltar wrote:
Annihilator wrote:

remove time based progression and replace it with grind EP!

thats the best thing i have heard in a while fuuu

Have you guys lost it. Want to grind some more? NO!

oh i thought the irony was obvious

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Zortarg Calltar wrote:
Celebro wrote:
Zortarg Calltar wrote:

thats the best thing i have heard in a while fuuu

Have you guys lost it. Want to grind some more? NO!

oh i thought the irony was obvious

Took it out of context tongue

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

As someone who has come back from about two years ago, here's a couple suggestions. (Perhaps a bit Spaceshipy bias, as I started that game in 2004).

1) Allow new folks to build on the second stage islands in a limited capacity.  This doesn't mean make huge forts or what not, but allow them to at least TRY out that stage of the game.  Maybe make something simple such as a titan mine they can place (lasts for 24hrs), that mines the equal of two or three basic miners.  Make the mine disappear in 24 hours, so they have to get ore out or it is lost.    Perhaps give it a two or three tile "spread" that allows them to siphon from.   Again, just an example.

2) The missions need some work.  Right now it is the same old same old thing.  The tutorials really should be improved to make it a bit more... exciting.  Point and click and click and click.  Increase rewards so new players come out with three or four pieces of T1 stuff maybe even a light mech of their choosing.  Maybe even some teamwork based ones (You've got an hour to kill x amount of drones - better find some friends to help you).  Almost like a public quest/mission type thing. 

2a) Missions can be more dynamic.  Perhaps the player is teleported to an area where they can do their thing, rather than driving for 5+ minutes to get there (And assuming the bots are there for them to kill).

2b) A bit more randomness in bots wouldn't hurt either.

3) Make the easy things easier.  There is a very steep learning curve.  Again with a reference to the spaceship game, when I started that 8 years ago, there was no learning curve, it was a cliff.  Once the easy things started to get easier, the population of that game improved dramatically.  Just saying.

4) Keep the hard stuff hard.  Make it worthwhile to get that mech/gear/whatever.  Give players something to look forward to.

5) Allow solo players a chance to do some of the things corps can.  Again, NOT everything, but nothing kills off potential players more than "You have to join a corp to do X".  These folks don't care about the "metagame" and who owns what. They want to do there own thing.  Allow them to at least try some of the "big boy things".  This would be easy enough to add in perhaps a handful of new islands where half is consensual pvp, the other half is full time pvp.   It lets them do pvp, and build stuff/produce stuff.   I had a station in low sec in the spaceship game that was just me - I mined/hauled/fought for it.  After standing up to some pirates they left me alone - I had "earned" enough respect for them to just ignore me (and they wanted what I sold too wink


I've got scads more, but I think this wall of text is enough for now.

Cheers

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

And yes to ICE (in fact I'll probably be buying some and a kickstarter or two for additional accounts)

And EP - yes.  A very simple way - figure out the average EP on the server.  Give the starting players 15-20% of that and let them go to town picking what they want.   Perhaps a 5-10k bonus for doing all the tutorial missions?

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

And kickstarter account purchased.

Cheers!

Re: Bridging the new player gap (brainstorming session)

Black Metallic wrote:

And EP - yes.  A very simple way - figure out the average EP on the server.  Give the starting players 15-20% of that and let them go to town picking what they want.   Perhaps a 5-10k bonus for doing all the tutorial missions?

Just a question - did you read this topic through? Additional EP (in whatever way) is everything else than simple if you still want to have some balance.

EP-wise (is closely related to op):
More additional EP at this point is negative for everyone atm:
- For the vets (called vets because of their high EP / faithfulness over a great timespan) that paid hard for their every EP
- The new players getting bored because they reached important achievements (like more expensive bots) too fast and that in a time based sandbox game (not a run-through-game with a set average of playing hours)
- For the DEVs loosing subscribers after just lets say 6 months because theres nothing new to reach and players get bored; or they might collapse because of overworking and fast developing buggy new content just to hold players in game, ... thats where the vicious circle doesn't stop anymore unless the game is dropped
Feel free to add this to every other argument you can find in this topic here against EP-boost.


For the town picking part (since thats not connected to EP-boost), partially thats in the new agent-creation.

Though I somehow would like to have a syndicate starter isle/bootcamp for tutorials and arkhe fights (and hell yeah a real nian to fight at the end of it) where you can teleport to any alpha1 you like after completing it. With this the nervewracking arkhe spawns at alpha 1 can be replaced by t1-t2 nians. For tutorial means there can be static ore spawns in bootcamp, syndicate crap variant of lasers, EM, lauchers to be bought /rewarded with - going along with the idea to choose your starting faction after completing tutorial and trying out the different weapons... (Sadly I never found the time to open a new topic for this really old idea hmm )

Other than that most of your ideas are already discussed in own topics, best to read those through and comment on them.