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Topic: Kain/Mesmer: replacing the ''turret falloff bonus''

I think I will not surprise anybody by saying the turret falloff bonus on blue bots is less than useful. Sure, some people will mention the firearms which benefits a lot from this bonus, but then, the other bonus on magnetic weapons becomes useless.

I would like to suggest a couple replacement solutions for this bonus:

1 - Sensor strenght bonus (10% per level)
Blue bots already have the shortest range. Moving forward often mean entering the 800m range of some zenith, and we get completely shut-down. I would like to suggest we get a passive sensor strengh bonus to resist Ewar and move into efficient range.
We already have the strongest Ewar strenght on Vagabond (excepted a particular Zenith MK2 fit), wouldn't that be logical our faction would also be in a leading position of ECCM ?

2 - Demob Resistance ( 5% per level)
Short range also mean relying on speed to catch oponents. If we fits plates, we are too slow. If we fits lightframe, a single demob negate our advantage.
If a medium plate give 25% demob resist, why not give us the equivalent, without the added HP?

3 - Passive Health Regeneration ( (1% HP per level / 10 sec )
Being the faction specialised in repairing ourselves, it sounds logical we could have self repairing bots. This also helps on keeping the bots light and fast without the weight of repairer.
If you do not like the % value, I would then suggest a fixed value, influenced by both repair skills. ( to improve HP repaired, and reduce cooldown. It would basically work like a free repair module working permanently.)

Theses suggestion are to work in synergies with other skills, to push the robot toward it's original purpose. (fast, short range DPS with repair tanking.)

Which suggestion is your favourite? If you have any other, this thread is open for debate.

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2 Reply by Burial (edited by Burial 2012-06-03 22:38:17)

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Re: Kain/Mesmer: replacing the ''turret falloff bonus''

I think demob resistance is really good idea considering the fact that blue is meant to be up close DPS and then GTFO when needed. Right now its more or less about getting close, getting demobbed and popping, bad demob stats from the LWF does'nt help at all either. lol

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Re: Kain/Mesmer: replacing the ''turret falloff bonus''

i think we had these discussions already multible times.

your options 1+2 are good but i think option one is a bit overpowering. fitting eccm is the way if you fear supressors or ecms.

option 2 is a good one and i like this a lot. atm we dont have any fast bots with demob resistance. then as pointed out once you are fast you will be demobed easily.
of yource you still need the lwf so the bonus at lvl 8(adv. robotics) should be not only negate the penalty from the lwf, it also needs to add a bonus like that of a plate.
if not this will be useless again. cause if you dont go lwf then the others will simply keep their distance and you never reach them. if the bonus is too small then you will be demobed and you never reach them and they keep their distance because they are faster again...

on the other hand these bots will be realy hard to catch with a demober, so this might be very powerfull. need to be thought out correctly or it will be a fail again.

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Re: Kain/Mesmer: replacing the ''turret falloff bonus''

Regarding point 2, as I see it, LWF give -25%, medium plate give +25% resistance.

Since fitting a LWF is quite a "must have" on a blue bot, and having +50% resist on the bot as passive bonus would give an actual +25% resist.

If I am not mistaken, you will be immune to long range demob (overpowered?), but still feel a -20% from a short range demob. (and -65 from a double demob)
A single S-demob would reduce your speed under the rest of other Mechs, yet leave you a chance to retreat. (Do not forget "S-demob" Can actually reach over 300m on a dedicated Zenith Tackler)

Another classic PvP fit would be LWF + Plate to compensate and stay at 0% penalty.
With the Bonus, you will be immune to single demobs, receive -40% from double demob.
This latest case might be a tad overpowered, but do not forget the bot will be weighted down by the plate, and a Mesmer will move at best around 60-smthing kph.
Catching a running prey with a -not so great- bonus speed over it, and a lower range that your target, and a lower tanking than any other Heavy Mech, will still mean a quick death.
But yeah, this bonus would need some extensive test. I don't want to render useless every demob unless a double demob handed by MK2 Zenith. (actually, Zenith MK2 should be the one nerfed... but let's no go over this matter)

Otherwise, change the bonus into a "free medium plate". Bonus HP, and +25% demob resist. After all, the classic with "regeneration/armor repair tanking" is to stack as much HP as possible, to last longer as you can hardly repair over the ennemies damages, unless you sacrifice all your DPS.

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Re: Kain/Mesmer: replacing the ''turret falloff bonus''

well compared to the other mechs i think the demob resist would be a fine option.

seth has +1% crit (realy good)
gropho has +1% locking speed (also quite nice to have)

compard with this i think ballance wise the demob resist would be ok.
but totaly agree with the falloff is a bit a waste.

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Re: Kain/Mesmer: replacing the ''turret falloff bonus''

1% demob resist sounds nice. btw, don't harvester mechs have that already?

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Re: Kain/Mesmer: replacing the ''turret falloff bonus''

Norrdec wrote:

1% demob resist sounds nice. btw, don't harvester mechs have that already?

gargoyle has it, symbiont dont but i think he had it before the patch.

gargoyle has 2% per lvl.

but for it to be usefull i think it would have to be 5% per lvl.
adv robotics 5 would negate the lwf malus. adv. robotics 10 would have the bonus of a plate even if lwf is fitted...

if you add plates and no lwf.. ok forget demob... but you are not realy fast either...

this would fit the blue bot style with running shotguns.

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Re: Kain/Mesmer: replacing the ''turret falloff bonus''

Being a blue pilot myself, I don't like to over-do things. With a bonus of 1-2% you are better at running from demob that the other guys. With the 5% and being faster AND demob resistant, the blue bots would be THE bots for roam PVP tongue Not good, not balanced.

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9 Reply by Zortarg Calltar (edited by Zortarg Calltar 2012-06-04 13:58:45)

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Re: Kain/Mesmer: replacing the ''turret falloff bonus''

well we are still talking about kain and mesmer boni. not lights and assaults...

my definition of roamning is light and assault.
mech and heavy is more a fleet fight. and these bots are not that fast for reams. especially cause the distances have increased with the last patch.

the thing with demob resists is... if its just a little bit... then its not much of use anyway.

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Re: Kain/Mesmer: replacing the ''turret falloff bonus''

I have to disagree. You don't want people to run away from your fleet. So if you can defend from it, you will try. Your version is overpowered, sorry.

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11 Reply by Sundial (edited by Sundial 2012-06-04 14:58:15)

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Re: Kain/Mesmer: replacing the ''turret falloff bonus''

5% well... with some commonly run fits using a LWF that would make you immune to demobs (both S and L).

2% would be closer to balanced.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

12 Reply by Crepitus (edited by Crepitus 2012-06-04 15:33:54)

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Re: Kain/Mesmer: replacing the ''turret falloff bonus''

Gaulois wrote:

I think I will not surprise anybody by saying the turret falloff bonus on blue bots is less than useful. Sure, some people will mention the firearms which benefits a lot from this bonus, but then, the other bonus on magnetic weapons becomes useless.

I would like to suggest a couple replacement solutions for this bonus:

1 - Sensor strenght bonus (10% per level)
Blue bots already have the shortest range. Moving forward often mean entering the 800m range of some zenith, and we get completely shut-down. I would like to suggest we get a passive sensor strengh bonus to resist Ewar and move into efficient range.
We already have the strongest Ewar strenght on Vagabond (excepted a particular Zenith MK2 fit), wouldn't that be logical our faction would also be in a leading position of ECCM ?

2 - Demob Resistance ( 5% per level)
Short range also mean relying on speed to catch oponents. If we fits plates, we are too slow. If we fits lightframe, a single demob negate our advantage.
If a medium plate give 25% demob resist, why not give us the equivalent, without the added HP?

3 - Passive Health Regeneration ( (1% HP per level / 10 sec )
Being the faction specialised in repairing ourselves, it sounds logical we could have self repairing bots. This also helps on keeping the bots light and fast without the weight of repairer.
If you do not like the % value, I would then suggest a fixed value, influenced by both repair skills. ( to improve HP repaired, and reduce cooldown. It would basically work like a free repair module working permanently.)

Theses suggestion are to work in synergies with other skills, to push the robot toward it's original purpose. (fast, short range DPS with repair tanking.)

Which suggestion is your favourite? If you have any other, this thread is open for debate.

+1, all blue pilot here, and demob resist totally fits the bot style.  I think 3% per level would be good, immune to L but not S and we're supposed to be up close and never received anything to compensate for explosion damage being introduced on beta...  Another good one would be repaired amount bonus.

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13 Reply by Dan

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Re: Kain/Mesmer: replacing the ''turret falloff bonus''

Yeah and now think what should be instead of rep bonus - which after erp nerf sucks haaaaard.
Also NERF ERPs they are too OP! fuuu

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Re: Kain/Mesmer: replacing the ''turret falloff bonus''

Bumping this to the top and adding a +1 for a new look at the falloff bonus and how much use is it anyway?
a 3% per level demob resistance is the best suggestion i could see and that one gets my vote,but i havent crunched any numbers to see how much of an improvement it becomes when you factor in clever fits. 5% is too high though.

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Re: Kain/Mesmer: replacing the ''turret falloff bonus''

I vote for a shield bonus 6% per level.

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Re: Kain/Mesmer: replacing the ''turret falloff bonus''

not the falloff bonus is crap...

Falloff ranges alltogether are crap (except firearms)

-> extension coplexity [4] lvl10 = 54k EP for 30% bonus (37 1/2 days)

  • Laser, 100m base
    = 130m (1.5 tile more range with 50% damage)

  • magnetic, 60-75m base
    = 78 - 97.58 m (0.5-1 tile more range with 50% damage)
    = 108 - 135 m with kain/mesmer falloff bonus (0.75-1.5 tiles for 50% damage)

  • Firerarms 185 - 265m base
    to lazy to calculate, but here the bonus is actually having a noticeable effect

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Re: Kain/Mesmer: replacing the ''turret falloff bonus''

That really nails the issue down, the bonus is simply put a subpar one and in one form or another it needs to be addressed. I play a missile bot aswell and as a green pilot i dont feel that my mechs bonuses are subpar. Perhaps there was a time when the falloff bonus was great but today it is nearly useless.

Thanks alot for the numbers anni.

Shield bonus certainly would be interesting, keep the discussion going and hopefully a dev will pop in and leave with some fresh ideas.

18 Reply by Karism (edited by Karism 2012-09-14 18:46:09)

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Re: Kain/Mesmer: replacing the ''turret falloff bonus''

2-3% hit dispersion decrease for magnetic guns per level of advanced robotics would be a nice replacement, and in my opinion, not overpowered.

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Re: Kain/Mesmer: replacing the ''turret falloff bonus''

Karism wrote:

2-3% hit dispersion decrease for magnetic guns per level of advanced robotics would be a nice replacement, and in my opinion, not overpowered.

less hit dispersion for what? at maxed extension you hit every EWAR mech with 100% chance with your medium weapons... thats about exactly what it should be.
You dont even need it maxed to hit mechs with 100% chance.

so, how exactly would the game benefit from giving them a even higher chance to hit? (and not to forget about med machineguns...)

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Re: Kain/Mesmer: replacing the ''turret falloff bonus''

I guess he is talking about what happens when you try to fire on an assault bot,or light e-war with short ranged medium weapons. Your hit chance goes way,way down. 1 of 6 sometimes,with maxxed extensions.

Still though, if that is an issue its a separate one that has to do with the innate hit dispersion of the weapon. Thats my opinion anyway,when modules or weapons are lacking the items themselves should be changed.

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Re: Kain/Mesmer: replacing the ''turret falloff bonus''

well, that exactly what they are supposed to do!

laser = long range + precision.
magnetics = high burst damage + short range + chance to miss
missile = always hit, no los, medium burst damage, low DPS

if you want it different, you tune it with head and legslot module (aka fit stabs and tunings). Thats the whole point of having those modules and the slots.

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Re: Kain/Mesmer: replacing the ''turret falloff bonus''

Hey i was just trying to think of a replacement bonus, if you can think of a better, one, go ahead.

23 Reply by Celebro (edited by Celebro 2012-09-14 21:58:50)

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Re: Kain/Mesmer: replacing the ''turret falloff bonus''

AOE damage taken armor bonus +5% resists.

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Re: Kain/Mesmer: replacing the ''turret falloff bonus''

tbh... even a missile related one on the kain would make sense.

but as i said before - not the falloff bonus on those mechs is wrong, the basic falloff ranges of all weapons are wrong.

they need to be reviewed...

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25 Reply by Celebro (edited by Celebro 2012-09-14 21:57:40)

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Re: Kain/Mesmer: replacing the ''turret falloff bonus''

Annihilator wrote:

tbh... even a missile related one on the kain would make sense.

but as i said before - not the falloff bonus on those mechs is wrong, the basic falloff ranges of all weapons are wrong.

they need to be reviewed...

oh I like the Mickey mouse kain smile Useless anyways even with a missle bonus.

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