1 Topic by Ville (edited by Ville 2012-01-10 02:04:30)

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Topic: Walls, Npcs and Dev Blogs

Keep in mind this is in General Discussion and not Corp Dialogue.  This is not a call out either this is open ended discussion. 

So I went through the blog post read it everything looked good, eat a little dinner sit down to play perp and got to thinking about walls and looking at my outpost looking at potential places to put wall then I got to thinking, man this is cheesy. 

I envision some Devs were sitting around burning toast going hey, lets try something! 

*Right click* -> Copy Noralgis Incubator ->paste -> change name -> add graphic -> Viola!  We got Walls and can tease a little more about PBS!

*Before the flamers start, It is a step in the RIGHT direction and I know you have to stumble, crawl and walk before you can run but it seems cheesy.  First of all:  What am I defending?  My outpost that already sits there invincible?  Block off ever goatpath in every island sink more NIC into things that are pointless!  "Hey Man Cool Wall." 

It would have been cool if you come out with a Permanent Weapon , then a Wall.  Then your wall has some meaning, or something that automatically mines something that you can wall off.  But what gets me is How does something along the same design of a noralgis incubator turn into a multi tile station?  Just reading the forums looking at the gliders it seems they were a "quick" fix to get something that hovers but still on one tile.

Next, before you guys start changing AIs, I hope you intend on moving some of the darwin spawns next to some of the Beta-1 islands Outposts.  You know that spawn next to Moyar or Karapyth or that one station on hokko in the bottom left corner.  All I need now is smarter spawns double demobbing people next to the station because they figured out how to come around a small choke point we always hang them on.

Along with this rant pumping another post here but some of these Ore fields on Beta 1 islands need to be adjusted.  They are too small compared to the Beta-2s and they are no where near the mineral deposits on the Beta 2s.  Give us Titan back on Beta, some of us actually want to live out there full time.

Step in the right direction but... its missing something like Content.

Bombs look good smile

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Re: Walls, Npcs and Dev Blogs

Walls  aren't just mindless copypaste cuz they are permanent and have alots of HP according to the devblog. As a result they have their purpose giving you a huge tactical advantage.

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3 Reply by Obi Wan Kenobi (edited by Obi Wan Kenobi 2012-01-10 12:12:12)

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Re: Walls, Npcs and Dev Blogs

OK after reading the dev blog & having a think i have to say imho it looks mostly good.

Improved NPC AI is always a good thing & im glad to see they are continuing to work on this. Verdict: Awesome keep it up!

Inter island mobile TPs: I would have thought this would be the bone of contention but i guess not. I think the idea will work well. BUT im a little worried that these will just make the game world even smaller than it already is.
Verdict: Hesitant but happy to wait & see.

Proximity Probes:  any thing that makes alt arkhe scouts a thing of the past (mostly) is a damn good thing.
Verdict: I cant wait to see these in use smile

Walls: OK to the issue Ville raised. If you dont like these thats cool perpetuum is a sand box & you know what, if you dont like em you dont have to use em. to the nay Sayers out there i say lets wait & see how the player base uses these. I think this is a damn good move. My only hope / concern is  that the devs will make this a NPC seeded item only. I hope they dont do this but allow them to be player made.

Bombs: OMG i cant wait for these. bombs r always a good thing smile

any way just my thoughts on the things the devblog talked about.

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Re: Walls, Npcs and Dev Blogs

I think you're being over critical. These small changes will hugely effect the face of beta islands.

Walls and Bombs. It's easy to say "Let's make walls and bombs" and make something terrible but what will be interesting is the FIRST iteration of this system. The first balance will set the pace and flavour for the rest of the structure system.. Walls too easy to break and expensive to place will make them under used. Walls too hard to break and cheap will make them over used. Bombs being too weak and slow to activate against them being strong and quick to activate.

If anything I'd say they've stayed TOO quiet about changes that have been in the pipeline for months even if they've only been at the idea stage for the last few months. 6 major features or changes in one month.

We asked them for more sand. They provided it. It's up to US to use it and not complain that "It's just them being lazy" which is what someone MIGHT TL;DR your post to.

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Beta 1 islands need better ore fields.  I've seen many ore fields from Beta 2 and 1, and 1 is far inferior in quantity to the Beta 2 fields.

Agree they should look into spawns near various stations at some point.

Walls WILL be abused and at this point seem rather pointless in their current stated function.  Most Beta islands already have "forced pathing" due to large numbers of spawns restricting certain areas of travel.  Walls at this point just seem.......Meh neutral

hmmm, will the bombs needed to destroy the walls cost as  much as building the walls?

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Ville,

Ffs stop whining and being a doomsayer, why don’t you see what the population does with the sand its given and stop begging the devs to make Norhoop the same as Novastrov for you, if you don’t like it move back to Nova, simples

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see it that way: now you can build walls to shield off those damn NPCs for some time.

also - they wont be the ultimate Outpost defense, since they are blocking weapon fire in both directions. Its like in that LOTR movie - you plant your bomb right 1 tile infront of the wall, and the defender behind the wall can do absolutely nothing against it, except running around and trying to shoot the bomb before its exploding.

I doubt the bombs LoS center is the part flying in mid air.

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So Laosura will be Helm's Deep of Nia!

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Re: Walls, Npcs and Dev Blogs

Annihilator wrote:

see it that way: now you can build walls to shield off those damn NPCs for some time.

also - they wont be the ultimate Outpost defense, since they are blocking weapon fire in both directions. Its like in that LOTR movie - you plant your bomb right 1 tile infront of the wall, and the defender behind the wall can do absolutely nothing against it, except running around and trying to shoot the bomb before its exploding.

I doubt the bombs LoS center is the part flying in mid air.


i can imagine with terra forming that you form up a small mount of dirt that runs all the way along your wall thus giving you a rampart to fire from over the wall onto any enemy.

this would be win smile
unless the enemy has loads of missile mechs tongue

or arty when they come out big_smile

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
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Re: Walls, Npcs and Dev Blogs

Obi Wan Kenobi wrote:
Annihilator wrote:

see it that way: now you can build walls to shield off those damn NPCs for some time.

also - they wont be the ultimate Outpost defense, since they are blocking weapon fire in both directions. Its like in that LOTR movie - you plant your bomb right 1 tile infront of the wall, and the defender behind the wall can do absolutely nothing against it, except running around and trying to shoot the bomb before its exploding.

I doubt the bombs LoS center is the part flying in mid air.


i can imagine with terra forming that you form up a small mount of dirt that runs all the way along your wall thus giving you a rampart to fire from over the wall onto any enemy.

this would be win smile
unless the enemy has loads of missile mechs tongue

or arty when they come out big_smile

See now this is taking shape into great theory crafting.  Terraforming dirt behind the walls give you a REASON to place the walls in the first place. 

I wonder if the walls will be visible on the radar once your close enough to them?  Or if its even possible.  I see some real disadvantages for people pvping in low graphics mode versus people with high graphics being able to see the wall while kitting an attacker.

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Re: Walls, Npcs and Dev Blogs

Alexander wrote:

I think you're being over critical. These small changes will hugely effect the face of beta islands.

Walls and Bombs. It's easy to say "Let's make walls and bombs" and make something terrible but what will be interesting is the FIRST iteration of this system. The first balance will set the pace and flavour for the rest of the structure system.. Walls too easy to break and expensive to place will make them under used. Walls too hard to break and cheap will make them over used. Bombs being too weak and slow to activate against them being strong and quick to activate.

If anything I'd say they've stayed TOO quiet about changes that have been in the pipeline for months even if they've only been at the idea stage for the last few months. 6 major features or changes in one month.

We asked them for more sand. They provided it. It's up to US to use it and not complain that "It's just them being lazy" which is what someone MIGHT TL;DR your post to.


Personally I don't care about PBS or features that involve it.  Personally I don't want more sand in my sandbox.  I want better features with the sand I am already playing with to make my experience worth playing.  Micro Managing a wall may be oww and ah for a few weeks but just like with I2.0 it will get annoying and boring rather quickly.

I would like to see things like: Better Squad functions, Better Alliance controls, Improved balancing of Islands(shameless bump).

I am not disagreeing that the concept itself is a step in the right direction and pretty cool, I think it's just Cheesy to announce walls first. 

I am just worried that the Development Team was not overcome the one tile obstacle and it we get stucking waiting 4 monthes for fix for this.

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I do agree a LITTLE with what Ville is saying however they've tried changing existing features and people start to complain "Where are the new features" so they make some new features and people go "Where are our changes to existing features?"

This is perfect compared to what they've been doing before. it would be really nice if they could make multi-tiled single plants or multi-tiled robots (Which is a LOT harder than it sounds to solve) and they will get here eventually but why have the entire team doing nothing while 3 people resolve and test other things?

I do think however more changes and features need to come in together. More changing the old and adding the new at the same time. Little and often rather than few and far between.

13 Reply by Lupus Aurelius (edited by Lupus Aurelius 2012-01-10 17:47:00)

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Re: Walls, Npcs and Dev Blogs

Hate to say it, but none of the proposed items excite me in the least.

Walls - Long ago in a galaxy far away, we were promised terraforming.  We still do not have that, and tbh, I'd rather see the devs deliver on that promise than "walls".  Instead of NIC, time and effort would have to be expended, EP spent on skills to perform that effort, and countermeasures to it could be an enemy coming and undoing the terraforming work performed with their own terraformers ( think sappers back in history used against static defensive positions such as walls and castles )

Bombs - We already have people advocating massive damage and short timers, so guess what they are thinking, lol.  Nothing to do with walls, more to do with small hit and run gangs using derp tactics to thin the opposition or persuit.  Again, long ago in a galaxy far away, we were promised ARTILLERY that would do area effect damage.  An artillery mech can be countered, shot, jammed, whatever, and the mech and skills involved would require multiple EP expenditure points that would require some form of specialization.  Instead of coming up with this "new" item, lets see follow thru on the originally proposed addition that the devs committed to last summer.
Based on the dev blog, seems their "intent" is as a counter to the walls, corp A builds walls, corp B blows holes in it.  See "walls" above for the alternate way to do that. 

Inter Island Mobile Tele -  Well, damn, lets give an even more "easy" button.  There is no where on Nia we can't get to in more than 20 mins with the right bots, and multiple entry points exist for each island.  Current practice is arhke scouts on tele.  So now we add a limited range inter island tele, and this does what? Dumps you right at a static tele on and island, and viola!, arhke scout goes peek-a-boo I see you.  So nothing really changes. 

Proximity Probes - Frankly, the only item I see as new innovation here that could potentially radically change pvp game play.  It makes roaming gangs a little easier to track, adds a challenge for the roamers to evade them or destroy them. The major downside here is just the same as the benefits, potentially makes roaming gangs TOO easy to track, and too hard for roamers to evade persuit, even masked.  Currently, we have detectors and sparks to boost that capablity, as well a potential auras at outposts, but even with that a masked gang can negate most of that detection benefit.  Destroy someones probe, you immediately send a signal that there are hostiles on the island, place probes in extremely inaccessable points for most bots, and you have no way to counter it.  It's a defenders wet dream, and an attackers worst nightmare, but it would significantly reshape how beta pvp would be performed.

As stated above, the DEVs should deliver on the blog promises this past summer, artillery, terraforming, destroyer mechs, before going down this road at this time.  Most of the new blog proposals would have been addressed if we already had artillery and terraforming.

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Re: Walls, Npcs and Dev Blogs

I'm pretty excited about bombs and walls.

I am going to surround my enemies in walls. I will grind nic to make their island all screwed up!

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Re: Walls, Npcs and Dev Blogs

Mara Kaid Pirate of Nia wrote:

I'm pretty excited about bombs and walls.

I am going to surround my enemies in walls. I will grind nic to make their island all screwed up!

they will await your scarabs that you will need to accomplish that wink

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Seperating what we got from what we expected...

So walls. My first thought was to build them around your Norgalis fields.

At places I'm familiar with, like Hydelhorn. There's a light bot bypass route. Putting a wall up there would funnel all traffic a specific direction. Also, I suppose, you could wall off the other route, and leave the light bot path open, meaning a long delay for mechs that have to go around, or through.

Lots of defensive possiblities really, and the walls aren't instant, so it will take a couple days for them to mature, meaning plenty of time for roamers to come in and mess with them before they're effective.

Really, what more can you ask for from any new piece of sand, a reason to deploy it and something to shoot at.

Recoupling what we got to what we want, then yes, these new items aren't what some people are looking for, but they are interesting enough to provide some diversions while the advanced features are being worked on.

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Ville wrote:

Personally I don't care about PBS or features that involve it.  Personally I don't want more sand in my sandbox.  I want better features with the sand I am already playing with to make my experience worth playing.  Micro Managing a wall may be oww and ah for a few weeks but just like with me it will get annoying and boring rather quickly.


Ville wrote:

I am not disagreeing that the concept itself is a step in the right direction and pretty cool, I think it's just Cheesy to announce walls first.

So you make long ranty negative posts about stuff you don't like, in an attack on the devs basically saying "Why did you even bother doing all this what I want is XYZ" and then claim you are not disagreeing? It is a step in the right direction?

And how it can be Cheesy to announce walls first? "Yeah I agree, everyone announces the walls first, game devs have been doing it for years it is just a total copy and paste of all the other games that announce the walls first. So cheesy!"?

I get the impression most of your posts are just trolls and rants, but at least they are generally not as schizophrenic as these ones.

Personally I think the new features are very interesting. The chance to terraform your islands and control the access and mobility of other players will be interesting, the need to leave people afk at the gates is removed and the whole dynamic of the beta islands will be changed with the increased detection and teleportation options.

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MrCeeJ wrote:
Ville wrote:

Personally I don't care about PBS or features that involve it.  Personally I don't want more sand in my sandbox.  I want better features with the sand I am already playing with to make my experience worth playing.  Micro Managing a wall may be oww and ah for a few weeks but just like with me it will get annoying and boring rather quickly.


Ville wrote:

I am not disagreeing that the concept itself is a step in the right direction and pretty cool, I think it's just Cheesy to announce walls first.

So you make long ranty negative posts about stuff you don't like, in an attack on the devs basically saying "Why did you even bother doing all this what I want is XYZ" and then claim you are not disagreeing? It is a step in the right direction?

You know you don't have to read every post and I clearly said I am not attacking the Devs, they do a great job because if I was so unhappy wouldn't you think I would be playing HKO.

MrCeeJ wrote:

And how it can be Cheesy to announce walls first? "Yeah I agree, everyone announces the walls first, game devs have been doing it for years it is just a total copy and paste of all the other games that announce the walls first. So cheesy!"?

NOONE anounces walls first.  You have to have something worth protecting to build a wall.  What are you protecting your invincible outpost?  How about lets place walls to funnel our attackers, oh wait they can us the same tactics to hide behind walls.

MrCeeJ wrote:

I get the impression most of your posts are just trolls and rants, but at least they are generally not as schizophrenic as these ones.

I get the impression you don't understand what the difference between General Discussion and Corp Dialogue is so I am going to keep this PG

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LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!

MrCeeJ wrote:

Personally I think the new features are very interesting. The chance to terraform your islands and control the access and mobility of other players will be interesting, the need to leave people afk at the gates is removed and the whole dynamic of the beta islands will be changed with the increased detection and teleportation options.

Bahahaha Silly toggie Alfa is your home, no walls on Alfa brosef for you to play with. :sadpanda:  Bahahahah a Toggie discussing Beta features ahahah, Whats next? Chuck Norris endorsing *** cream.

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Re: Walls, Npcs and Dev Blogs

Great. Wall. Of. Nia.

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Dan wrote:

So Laosura will be Helm's Deep of Nia!

+1 to this big_smile

smile The blueprints have already been drawn up, and all contractors have been hired and all heavy equipment is in place.


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21 Reply by Ville (edited by Ville 2012-01-11 23:53:20)

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I don't speak for my alliance but I wouldn't mind holding off on blowing up walls to see this get built and battle it out in game, in a nice mock up.

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Ville wrote:

I don't speak for my alliance but I wouldn't mind holding off on blowing up walls to see this get built and battle it out in game, in a nice mock up.

Walls should be very quick to build and it seems we had it confirmed in IRC that the walls will need player interaction to build each stage. This could be like deploying a beacon or we might see "Construction" modules.. Who knows..

All I know is expecting walls to grow passively once placed might not be the whole truth but there could have been a misunderstanding.

And just to upset Gargaj, he said he'd started work on the client being able to support multiple squad leader but the change hasn't been approved.. So.. It would be nice if we could get that approved with all the Q.Q'ing us players are able to do.

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as i said in my first post i think i like most of the things in the blog... bar the new mobile TPs. they are the last thing this game needs right now.... maybe when we have 40+ islands. but not when we only have 12. as it is its way to easy to move around the map.

DEVS learn a lesson from eve. the days b4 capitals & titan bridges were around was great. stEVE felt massive. going to war & invading an enemy on the other side of the map took a crap load of skill & planning.
Now look at that game now.

Dotn repeat the same mistakes. Perpetuums game world ISNT BIG ENOUGH at this time.

^^ just my humble opinion. smile

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
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Obi Wan Kenobi wrote:

as i said in my first post i think i like most of the things in the blog... bar the new mobile TPs. they are the last thing this game needs right now.... maybe when we have 40+ islands. but not when we only have 12. as it is its way to easy to move around the map.

DEVS learn a lesson from eve. the days b4 capitals & titan bridges were around was great. stEVE felt massive. going to war & invading an enemy on the other side of the map took a crap load of skill & planning.
Now look at that game now.

Dotn repeat the same mistakes. Perpetuums game world ISNT BIG ENOUGH at this time.

^^ just my humble opinion. smile

+1 everythings good except the mobile tp's imho.

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Jelan wrote:
Obi Wan Kenobi wrote:

as i said in my first post i think i like most of the things in the blog... bar the new mobile TPs. they are the last thing this game needs right now.... maybe when we have 40+ islands. but not when we only have 12. as it is its way to easy to move around the map.

DEVS learn a lesson from eve. the days b4 capitals & titan bridges were around was great. stEVE felt massive. going to war & invading an enemy on the other side of the map took a crap load of skill & planning.
Now look at that game now.

Dotn repeat the same mistakes. Perpetuums game world ISNT BIG ENOUGH at this time.

^^ just my humble opinion. smile

+1 everythings good except the mobile tp's imho.

The teleports are too early.. I have to agree. Needed later..