1 (edited by Drahkar 2011-11-30 16:19:18)

Topic: Change sparks from themepark to sandbox

I think it was already bad enough that you absolutely had to run pre-made boring missions over and over to get your industrial character's efficiency up. Now you need to do it even more and with your combat characters too, to get access to sparks.

I have no problem with the idea that the NPC conglomerates can give you access to some sparks if they like you, but the fact that it's the ONLY way to acquire them makes it feel like a theme park mechanic that doesn't belong in a sandbox game.

There's pretty much an infinite amount of solutions to this but here are a few I thought of :

1) Allow people to bribe NPC corporations for relations. This would have the added benefit of being a NIC sink. It would also not only give an alternative for getting sparks but also an alternative for raising your relation bonus when using NPC facilities. If this were to be implemented, I would suggest that it be somewhat affordable at low relation levels and becomes MUCH more expensive as as your relations get higher. It would need to be overall expensive enough so that you don't see everyone buy max relations with every corp, and so that gaining relations through missions remains a viable option.

2) Allow people who gained access to a spark to somehow sell access to other players. Again, selling this spark access to other players should be very expensive for the seller, otherwise as soon as 1 person gets access, his entire alliance gets it too (including spies who give it to all other alliances in the game). This has the up side of encouraging player interaction and encouraging people to run missions (make an extra profit from selling sparks). It also serves as a NIC sink, but unfortunately it would not help industrial characters gain their industry relation bonus through any alternative means.

3) Allow anyone to buy any access to any spark, but make the sparks that are usually gained through relations be extremely expensive. This doesn't seem like a very good option since the only other upside is that it's a NIC sink. It doesn't further encourage player interaction and it doesn't add any alternatives for industrials who want to improve their industry relation bonus.

How is the current mechanic very different from a sandbox mechanic :
It's different because there are absolutely no alternatives. If you want a Seth, you can farm kernels, research it, make a CT, gather materials, then build it. You can also skip any of these steps by buying kernels and/or buying the CT and/or buying the materials and/or buying the Seth itself. Of course there has to be a predetermined way to make a Seth, but you are not in any way forced to make it yourself if you want access to it.

Conclusion : Please make sparks and relation gains more sandbox!

Drahkar wrote:

Another solution Dan and I thought of is that you could convert your relation gains into items and sell them to other players. These items could be called bribes or anything else.

This mechanic is already in the game but not very well supported. I can be sitting afk, in a squad with someone else who is running missions and effectively giving me half of the relation gains. I can pay that person for it. The downside with this method is that for no apparent reason I have to be online at the same time as him and I cannot be doing something else in my own squad, which means the person running missions is most likely gonna have to be a corpmate (or at least not an enemy).

It would indirectly fix the problem if a player could trade his relation gains for a Bribe item that he can then sell to other players. The purpose of the item would be to give it to the relevant NPC corp in exchange for relation gains.

AXE JOKE ECORP N-A CIR

Re: Change sparks from themepark to sandbox

rubbish

3 (edited by Dan 2011-11-30 16:07:51)

Re: Change sparks from themepark to sandbox

You are not forced to use 6.0 relation spark, you still can buy decent sparks for NIC.

:edit:
This is MY PERSONAL OPINION! fuuu

my bad, I was disagreeing with the examples not with the idea about making in more sandbox! tongue

Also you can hire/teem up with someone to grind relations for you via "accept squad" option.

"you're not in an MMO to make friends, you're there to make enemies smile"

Re: Change sparks from themepark to sandbox

Zigzagman2 wrote:

rubbish

I thought The Older Gamers implied mature posts on the forums, amongst other things. As far as I know it's something like "older than 24" not "older than 6".

AXE JOKE ECORP N-A CIR

Re: Change sparks from themepark to sandbox

Drahkar wrote:
Zigzagman2 wrote:

rubbish

I thought The Older Gamers implied mature posts on the forums, amongst other things. As far as I know it's something like "older than 24" not "older than 6".

The thing is-- Zig is right...........

Even your own corpy disagreed with you.

Inappropriate signature.

Re: Change sparks from themepark to sandbox

Disagreeing in the corp is not the best way to value an idea tongue

I don't like the grinds, but from the looks of it the new missions are better for rep. There will be lvl 3' now on alpha, with the next patch.

<GargajCNS> we maim to please

7 (edited by Drahkar 2011-11-30 16:11:47)

Re: Change sparks from themepark to sandbox

Another solution Dan and I thought of is that you could convert your relation gains into items and sell them to other players. These items could be called bribes or anything else.

This mechanic is already in the game but not very well supported. I can be sitting afk, in a squad with someone else who is running missions and effectively giving me half of the relation gains. I can pay that person for it. The downside with this method is that for no apparent reason I have to be online at the same time as him and I cannot be doing something else in my own squad, which means the person running missions is most likely gonna have to be a corpmate (or at least not an enemy).

It would indirectly fix the problem if a player could trade his relation gains for a Bribe item that he can then sell to other players. The purpose of the item would be to give it to the relevant NPC corp in exchange for relation gains.

AXE JOKE ECORP N-A CIR

Re: Change sparks from themepark to sandbox

Drahkar wrote:

Another solution Dan and I thought of is that you could convert your relation gains into items and sell them to other players. These items could be called bribes or anything else.

It would indirectly fix the problem if a player could trade his relation gains for a Bribe item that he can then sell to other players. The purpose of the item would be to give it to the relevant NPC corp in exchange for relation gains.

Other game = Dogtags...... This game combat toons should beable to give plasma for rep bonus, indy sould be able to give minerals or completed items.... Transport.... uh yeah sorry can't think of that.

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Re: Change sparks from themepark to sandbox

I like sparks the way they are now.

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Re: Change sparks from themepark to sandbox

Ville wrote:

I like sparks the way they are now.

+1

Everything else is just someone wanting to go farm for a couple hours and buy relations instead of putting the time and effort into actually doing the missions....

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11 (edited by Drahkar 2011-11-30 17:22:16)

Re: Change sparks from themepark to sandbox

Glad to see there are no good arguements against making sparks/relations more sandbox.

According to some posts here, it sounds like the playerbase would support the idea of any bot beyond light bots requiring a license to pilot, which you would gain by grinding a few hundred missions. This would be fine because "you can just use the light bot instead" and "this is just people not wanting to put effort into doing the missions required to pilot bigger bots".

Ridiculous and pathetic.

AXE JOKE ECORP N-A CIR

Re: Change sparks from themepark to sandbox

Drahkar wrote:

Glad to see there are no good arguements against making sparks/relations more sandbox.

According to some posts here, it sounds like the playerbase would support the idea of any bot beyond light bots requiring a license to pilot, which you would gain by grinding a few hundred missions. This would be fine because "you can just use the light bot instead" and "this is just people not wanting to put effort into doing the missions required to pilot bigger bots".

Ridiculous and pathetic.

Yes, I agree your ideas are ridiculous and pathetic....

There is nothing wrong with missions the way they are or the way they are heading. They fit fine into the sandbox. Open your eyes and quit being a lazy free cheeser. Perhaps the free cheese mentality is what got your corp into trouble last time?

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Re: Change sparks from themepark to sandbox

Scyylla wrote:
Drahkar wrote:

Glad to see there are no good arguements against making sparks/relations more sandbox.

According to some posts here, it sounds like the playerbase would support the idea of any bot beyond light bots requiring a license to pilot, which you would gain by grinding a few hundred missions. This would be fine because "you can just use the light bot instead" and "this is just people not wanting to put effort into doing the missions required to pilot bigger bots".

Ridiculous and pathetic.

Yes, I agree your ideas are ridiculous and pathetic....

There is nothing wrong with missions the way they are or the way they are heading. They fit fine into the sandbox. Open your eyes and quit being a lazy free cheeser. Perhaps the free cheese mentality is what got your corp into trouble last time?

I wasn't in the corp at the time so that's irrelevant. There's nothing free about paying for something, which is only one possible solution. Taking a current feature and optimizing it doesn't add anything free either, see here :


Drahkar wrote:

Another solution Dan and I thought of is that you could convert your relation gains into items and sell them to other players. These items could be called bribes or anything else.

This mechanic is already in the game but not very well supported. I can be sitting afk, in a squad with someone else who is running missions and effectively giving me half of the relation gains. I can pay that person for it. The downside with this method is that for no apparent reason I have to be online at the same time as him and I cannot be doing something else in my own squad, which means the person running missions is most likely gonna have to be a corpmate (or at least not an enemy).

It would indirectly fix the problem if a player could trade his relation gains for a Bribe item that he can then sell to other players. The purpose of the item would be to give it to the relevant NPC corp in exchange for relation gains.

AXE JOKE ECORP N-A CIR

Re: Change sparks from themepark to sandbox

hmm, i really don't see whats "themepark" on sparks...

you got some that you can buy for NIC, you got some that you can unlock by doing missions...

next thing you ask for is trading extension points... "because its not sandbox enough that i cannot sell my characters base attributes". Sparks are nothing more then a switchable extension...

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Re: Change sparks from themepark to sandbox

I like the way it is. Standing is at the moment one of the things you really have to do for yourself (or find someone grinding in squad for you and have the reduced benefit)

Re: Change sparks from themepark to sandbox

Annihilator wrote:

hmm, i really don't see whats "themepark" on sparks...

you got some that you can buy for NIC, you got some that you can unlock by doing missions...

next thing you ask for is trading extension points... "because its not sandbox enough that i cannot sell my characters base attributes". Sparks are nothing more then a switchable extension...

By that definition, bots can also be considered switchable extensions. Or sparks can be considered invulnerable modules. Does this mean you would support the following mechanic :


Drahkar wrote:

According to some posts here, it sounds like the playerbase would support the idea of any bot beyond light bots requiring a license to pilot, which you would gain by grinding a few hundred missions. This would be fine because "you can just use the light bot instead" and "this is just people not wanting to put effort into doing the missions required to pilot bigger bots".

To more closely match your own example, we could say that "you can buy some bots for NIC, you can unlock some by doing missions" so it's fine?

AXE JOKE ECORP N-A CIR

17 (edited by Drahkar 2011-11-30 18:57:07)

Re: Change sparks from themepark to sandbox

Goffer wrote:

I like the way it is. Standing is at the moment one of the things you really have to do for yourself (or find someone grinding in squad for you and have the reduced benefit)

Yes so we could simply optimize this mechanic by allowing the person who is being relation-boosted to not be in squad nor online. The result would be the same, only more optimized.

This could be achieved by letting someone turn half of their relation gains into an itemized relation booster, as mentionned earlier.

Requiring the person being relation-boosted to log their character on, accept a squad invite and go afk does not improve the game in any way.

AXE JOKE ECORP N-A CIR

Re: Change sparks from themepark to sandbox

Drahkar wrote:

I think it was already bad enough that you absolutely had to run pre-made boring missions over and over to get your industrial character's efficiency up. Now you need to do it even more and with your combat characters too, to get access to sparks.


Your implication is that players with an indy and a combat character have to grind twice. While having multiple accounts is very common, I would not suggest balancing the game around it.

Meaning, Indy characters have to grind for refining and combat players for better sparks. That is balanced.

Missions are also more than just a relations grind, for solo (and new) alpha players, they are a significant part of the PVE game. Mission runners do missions to get better relations, to unlock better missions.

Any change in the way sparks are accessed shouldn't effect how or why missions are run.

Adding alternate ways to access sparks are good, but don't change the way relations are gained.

tl;dr - Add alternate ways to access relational sparks, but don't change the mission/relation mechanic.

Re: Change sparks from themepark to sandbox

Arga wrote:
Drahkar wrote:

I think it was already bad enough that you absolutely had to run pre-made boring missions over and over to get your industrial character's efficiency up. Now you need to do it even more and with your combat characters too, to get access to sparks.


Your implication is that players with an indy and a combat character have to grind twice. While having multiple accounts is very common, I would not suggest balancing the game around it.

Meaning, Indy characters have to grind for refining and combat players for better sparks. That is balanced.

Missions are also more than just a relations grind, for solo (and new) alpha players, they are a significant part of the PVE game. Mission runners do missions to get better relations, to unlock better missions.

Any change in the way sparks are accessed shouldn't effect how or why missions are run.

Adding alternate ways to access sparks are good, but don't change the way relations are gained.

tl;dr - Add alternate ways to access relational sparks, but don't change the mission/relation mechanic.

I'm fine with that.

Also, optimizing the mechanics with which one player can grind on behalf of another, as detailed above, would not add any new ways of getting or bypassing relations, so I think that would be a good solution.

AXE JOKE ECORP N-A CIR

Re: Change sparks from themepark to sandbox

First it was whinatory now stepping into the ring draQQar.

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Re: Change sparks from themepark to sandbox

Ville wrote:

Free bump

Very good points Ville. I love you too! smile

AXE JOKE ECORP N-A CIR

Re: Change sparks from themepark to sandbox

well, the whole topic is crap, as the current unlocking mechanism for sparks have never been meant to be the only ones.

Blog wrote:

To get hold of a spark, however, you need proper authorization to use them (basically “unlock” them). This authorization process can either mean a one-time NIC payment, or reaching a certain level of relation with a corporation. Later on we’ll also introduce new sparks unlockable for Energy Credits (when that system rolls out), or a combination of these.

also with todays patch we will get anther method that was not mentioned there. The Fact is, that you cannot unlock the same spark with different mechanics. for the relation based sparks you need to grind relation, for the purchaseable sparks you need to pay NIC... and theres nothing wrong with that, nor is written down somewhere that this is NOT sandbox.

we had that discussion already back in beta: THERE IS NO CLEAR DEFINITON OF SANDBOX regarding game mechanics. There is only the definition that a sandbox game does not place you on a fixed path of character progression or storyline progression with an endboss.

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Re: Change sparks from themepark to sandbox

Annihilator wrote:

well, the whole topic is crap,

Stopped reading here as that pretty much sums everything up!

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Re: Change sparks from themepark to sandbox

Scyylla wrote:
Annihilator wrote:

well, the whole topic is crap,

Stopped reading here as that pretty much sums everything up!

+1

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25 (edited by Burial 2011-12-01 15:57:08)

Re: Change sparks from themepark to sandbox

Drahkar wrote:

Another solution Dan and I thought of is that you could convert your relation gains into items and sell them to other players. These items could be called bribes or anything else.

This mechanic is already in the game but not very well supported. I can be sitting afk, in a squad with someone else who is running missions and effectively giving me half of the relation gains. I can pay that person for it. The downside with this method is that for no apparent reason I have to be online at the same time as him and I cannot be doing something else in my own squad, which means the person running missions is most likely gonna have to be a corpmate (or at least not an enemy).

It would indirectly fix the problem if a player could trade his relation gains for a Bribe item that he can then sell to other players. The purpose of the item would be to give it to the relevant NPC corp in exchange for relation gains.

I actually like the idea a lot, if the Bribes is changed to something more appropriate. "Vouch" the other guy and trade your reputation for his is the right word I think.