Re: Multiboxing

well if its legal, ill publish the how-to in all its details here on the forums on the open section

so, it will not just be one faction of people using it

ok?

Re: Multiboxing

What faction of people are using it then???  I certainly don't know who it is, all we have is unfounded accusations as usual from Ville and lackeys who even when the devs tell them there isn't any cheating will then scream its the devs lying to favour one group so they can't win and villes conspiracy theory just gets stronger in his head, pathetic

Re: Multiboxing

Kinda makes me want to get 10 Star Wars accounts and run around 1 shotting all the PVE stuff -

79 (edited by Annihilator 2012-02-23 12:59:51)

Re: Multiboxing

Jelan wrote:

What faction of people are using it then???  I certainly don't know who it is, all we have is unfounded accusations as usual from Ville and lackeys who even when the devs tell them there isn't any cheating will then scream its the devs lying to favour one group so they can't win and villes conspiracy theory just gets stronger in his head, pathetic

well, look who has bumped this topic after all...
and without reading the first page again, i seem to remember that noone was accused of using it, but certain player jumped right into this discussion to defend multiboxing - and then the accusations started.

and if there is smoke, most times, there is a fire too... and there is very visible smokescreen around your corp...

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Multiboxing

As a person that has Multi-Boxed many games including this one,
I find certain facts about this one, that do not lend itself to these claims of exploitation of the game in a very easy manner.
No doubt someone could create a memory injection method, but thats ALOT of work for a very very limited market

1.) There is no "Assist" function to coordinate an attack easily with a keyboard broadcaster or the other Linking software out there.

2.) There is no Function to "Target Squad Member X"

3.) There is no "Aquire Targets Target" function, that basically allows a 2 step process of using "Target Squad Member X" function then "Aquire Targets Target" function, written in to an external script or macroed command

4.) There is no built in macro capabilities

Yes, there are Macro Keyboards, Mice and Gamepads, I own the full set of Logitech devices, neat stuff can be done for this game, but nothing close to what people think.

Yes there is easily obtained software, to broadcast keys, and "Network" a "Master/Slave" scenario, some even have built in Pixel monitoring for things like activating "heals" and the like.

Someone can call me wrong, but setting up a "Broadcast" or "Network" tool for use in this game, would be of very little use.

Your Challenge for the day..

Sit down,  and write yourself an Action list, of the steps needed to co-ordinate multi sessions of THIS game for the same objective, using the options that exist in the game TODAY, and tell me how that works out for ya. Remember, you need to do all of this from a single keyboard.

If you do it using seperate keyboards/machines, or seperate keyboard inputs to multiple windows on same machine, that is NOT exploiting or cheating.

Re: Multiboxing

Anni, dont play ignorant or make out like you dont have an anti M2S bias.  The bitterness in most of your posts is troll food on every level. 

Its blantently obvious what Ville et all are trying to suggest, just because they havent said it directly or edited the earlier posts to make it seem like an innocent question, its not.  I welcome the investigation to prove us innocent, however if it was a genuine suspicion the mature sensible thing would have been to report it quietly with all the evidence and await an outcome. 

Not "arrgghh we all died they must be cheating, lets see what they did to beat us by cheating"

I look forward to an apology from the accusers, which of course they wont be man enough to admit, as i said earlier they'll just scream dev bias instead.

You know these are probably the same people that believe in Intelligent Design lol

82 (edited by Dazamin 2012-02-23 17:15:38)

Re: Multiboxing

Grabby wrote:

As a person that has Multi-Boxed many games including this one,
I find certain facts about this one, that do not lend itself to these claims of exploitation of the game in a very easy manner.
No doubt someone could create a memory injection method, but thats ALOT of work for a very very limited market

1.) There is no "Assist" function to coordinate an attack easily with a keyboard broadcaster or the other Linking software out there.

2.) There is no Function to "Target Squad Member X"

3.) There is no "Aquire Targets Target" function, that basically allows a 2 step process of using "Target Squad Member X" function then "Aquire Targets Target" function, written in to an external script or macroed command

4.) There is no built in macro capabilities

Yes, there are Macro Keyboards, Mice and Gamepads, I own the full set of Logitech devices, neat stuff can be done for this game, but nothing close to what people think.

Yes there is easily obtained software, to broadcast keys, and "Network" a "Master/Slave" scenario, some even have built in Pixel monitoring for things like activating "heals" and the like.

Someone can call me wrong, but setting up a "Broadcast" or "Network" tool for use in this game, would be of very little use.

Your Challenge for the day..

Sit down,  and write yourself an Action list, of the steps needed to co-ordinate multi sessions of THIS game for the same objective, using the options that exist in the game TODAY, and tell me how that works out for ya. Remember, you need to do all of this from a single keyboard.

If you do it using seperate keyboards/machines, or seperate keyboard inputs to multiple windows on same machine, that is NOT exploiting or cheating.

This is a pretty good post, I've been thinking about the practicalities of controlling say 5 bots as 1, just using key broadcasting, and I came to a similar conclusion, it would be very hard without some kind of additional scripting or automation (which would be against the EULA). In an ideal situation it could be useful (Gropho Alpha) but in many others it would work against you. In the 5 Vagabond scenario for example, what happens when 2 or 3 are demobbed? You moving the 5 as 1 works against you here, as they're all in different places due to the different speeds. Things that an opponent does to one of your bots (Demob, ECM, Supress, etc) will change what you want one particular bot to do, and in any situation where you don't want all 5 to do exactly the same thing, you will be hamstrung by the fact that every button you press repeats that command to all 5 clients.

Also for all this talk of multiple Grophos, etc. In the squad in question, as far as I can remember, anyone who was multiboxing was running a single combat account along with a symbiont (or in one case a couple of symbionts) This is called a follow bot for a reason, you lock your main, click 'follow' and apply reps, RSA, etc. It is by far the easiest way to multibox, and really doesn't require a macro of any kind. The exact reason there are so many of them in the squad is because they're not supposed to do anything fancy like rep the rest of your squad, because that requires you pay attention to multiple accounts. I mean if you get the chance to get reps on others thats great, but mostly you just leave it repping yourself and concentrate on your main.

Re: Multiboxing

Grabby - all the things you have listed are not really necessary with that mentioned multiboxing software there.

all you need is several identical specced and equipped agents, and running the game several times with exactly the same window and keyboard configuration.

The external programm then sends all your keyboard and mouse inputs to all clients at the same time. you doubleclick on your main client a target in your landmarklist - all other clients do exactly the same. There is no "assist target" necessary at all.
If during combat any of your clients needs asynchronus imput, the software provides you with options for that.

just watch this video:
http://youtu.be/UIe70mUTLdQ

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Multiboxing

Grabby - the first use of broadcast is for moving. When you follow another bot, you get a small distance lag, because the approach doesn't kick in until you are 20m or so away. Broadcasting movement ensures that all your bots stay exactly on top of each other, and you have no issues with moving around terrain and plants; with follow its easy to accidentaly scrape off a bot, and you also can't 'duck' all your bots behind cover at the same time because of the activation distance/lag.

There's not need to script anything. The 'power' is the ability to create portal windows to sections of other clients, and put those on one screen. When running accounts manually, you can alt-tab between them to select, but that takes a long time, and only 1 screen is visible at a time. With windowing, you can basically 'cut' out just the pieces of each screen you want, and organize them on one screen. All the actual 'clickin' is still done by the operator, the software just allows you 1000% more control on how information from multiple clients is displayed.

Where the advantage comes in with the UI cut and pasting, at least in this game, is that the modules from all bots are in one place, as well as landmarks and squad windows (and anything else you want to gather).

From an indy view, I can create (4) window views on one screen, and lock/relock tiles as they are exhusted from the same screen. And as a another portal, set up the (4) cargo/cans at one side, so I can unload the cargo without changing screens. Now, IF i were to automate the lock/unlock, cargo drop, THAT would break the EULA. But still manually moving the ore and locking probably wouldn't. But if I've gone that far, HOW would AC know if I did or didn't script it?

Re: Multiboxing

Jelan wrote:

Anni, dont play ignorant or make out like you dont have an anti M2S bias.  The bitterness in most of your posts is troll food on every level. 

Its blantently obvious what Ville et all are trying to suggest, just because they havent said it directly or edited the earlier posts to make it seem like an innocent question, its not.  I welcome the investigation to prove us innocent, however if it was a genuine suspicion the mature sensible thing would have been to report it quietly with all the evidence and await an outcome. 

Not "arrgghh we all died they must be cheating, lets see what they did to beat us by cheating"

I look forward to an apology from the accusers, which of course they wont be man enough to admit, as i said earlier they'll just scream dev bias instead.

You know these are probably the same people that believe in Intelligent Design lol

Jelan if your not going to take the time to to read the entire thread atleast do us a favor and stop trying to spin everything in a  useless troll.  As of right now I noticed something out of the ordinariy and all I want to know is it 100% legal.   As far as I can tell based on a year ago post it is but I want to make sure.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: Multiboxing

Well lets look at all the things that AC can do to stop different types of automation.

I know a little about automation and mmo games.

First time I will chat about this on these forums. I stopped making bots about 5 years ago.

I use to write bots for mmo fantasy grind games.

So here is a small list of ways to bot and I am sure there are more now since I stopped writing bots.

More complex automation.

1. Code injection.
2. Screen pixel reading.
3. Screenshot folder watching. (Believe it not I have seen some bots run this way.)

More simple automation.

1. Keyboard, mice and other input devices with macro capabilities.


I have seen some games lock out G key boards and other devices macro abilities. Not sure what is done to achieve it. But it can be done.

Code Injection has a simple solution. Every time the game is started it does a MD5 scan on the client files and if something is different it just downloads the changed files again.

Screen pixel reading. There are ways to stop this one too. Not going to sit here and explain it all. I gave advice to a game company on how to stop the bots I knew of running a muck in their game. Because one of the bots was my design and it was the last one they could not stop. (hehe)

Screenshot folder one is very easy too. Do not make the file writing instant. Simple solution was to write it with a delay and this slows those types of bots down big time.


Arga wrote:

But if I've gone that far, HOW would AC know if I did or didn't script it?

They can't or will not know. But they can blanket stop it for everyone.

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

Re: Multiboxing

Gremrod wrote:
Arga wrote:

But if I've gone that far, HOW would AC know if I did or didn't script it?

They can't or will not know. But they can blanket stop it for everyone.

I'm ok either way, as long as its an even playing field.

Re: Multiboxing

Ville wrote:
Jelan wrote:

Anni, dont play ignorant or make out like you dont have an anti M2S bias.  The bitterness in most of your posts is troll food on every level. 

Its blantently obvious what Ville et all are trying to suggest, just because they havent said it directly or edited the earlier posts to make it seem like an innocent question, its not.  I welcome the investigation to prove us innocent, however if it was a genuine suspicion the mature sensible thing would have been to report it quietly with all the evidence and await an outcome. 

Not "arrgghh we all died they must be cheating, lets see what they did to beat us by cheating"

I look forward to an apology from the accusers, which of course they wont be man enough to admit, as i said earlier they'll just scream dev bias instead.

You know these are probably the same people that believe in Intelligent Design lol

Jelan if your not going to take the time to to read the entire thread atleast do us a favor and stop trying to spin everything in a  useless troll.  As of right now I noticed something out of the ordinariy and all I want to know is it 100% legal.   As far as I can tell based on a year ago post it is but I want to make sure.

umm, did you say above you usually skip my posts?  might want to take your own advice, and read everything, so that when you reply, also, you actually know what you are replying to.

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!

89 (edited by Teleguy 2012-02-23 20:09:17)

Re: Multiboxing

guilty are pretty defensive

just need to know

yes or no, legal

if legal, let the nerd army games begin

Re: Multiboxing

Teleguy wrote:

guilty are pretty defensive

just need to know

yes or no, legal

if legal, let the nerd army games begin


As far as I know, myself and the other active posters in this thread have not been accused of anything, much less found guilty. (I don't know why I'm responding to a troll alt sad )

Also if you want a yes or no, as was made pretty clear earlier, you're gonna need to ask a specific question, not just a vague "third party stuff, yay or nay"

91 (edited by Arga 2012-02-23 21:14:00)

Re: Multiboxing

It's not even relevant at this point how the discussion started.

It was really only a matter of time before the benefits of multi-boxing high EP accounts together would surface, because it IS really part of this game culture to run multiple accounts. Undoubtably there are inherient advantages to simply having multiple bots, mining and hauling, specializing in faction combat bots, ect.

The technology exists to create a combined UI, to provide a single player with access to multiple client's information, in a manner that allows them to effectively pilot multiple bots at the same time. I don't think this specifically breaks any EULA, again as long as there's no scripting.

The key here is "I think". What I need, is input from the source that matters, and that's the developers. Knowing it breaks EULA's and using it anyway is always an option for players, I enjoy playing by the rules, but I'm also not going to gimp myself out of fear of walking the line.

This wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-boxing talks about reasons to multibox, and uses running 5 man's in WoW as an example. In Perp, there's no 5-man limit to encouters. The MORE robots you have, the better your chance of winning. Bringing more is always better. Any tool that allows players to bring more is going to be used by players that play to win. This is true in pvp, pve, as well as gathering (harvesting robots just popped to mind here).

Edit: How many trial account Argano's with small reppers fitted does take to rep 7000 armor in one cycle?

92 (edited by Dazamin 2012-02-23 21:16:16)

Re: Multiboxing

DEV Zoom wrote:

I didn't say it's alright to use third party programs because it's not black or white. It's impossible to tell, that's why the EULA isn't clear about it either. Based on that it's up to everyone's own judgement whether what he is doing is legal or not. If you walk on the edge, you might fall.

This seems pretty clear in its own way. case by case basis, if you do it don't cry if you get banhammered. I mean the attitude of "I need to know exactly how much of a unfair advantage I can get without risking punishment" seems fairly pathetic to me. Just play the damn game.

93 (edited by Arga 2012-02-23 21:19:27)

Re: Multiboxing

Dazamin wrote:

This seems pretty clear in its own way. case by case basis, if you do it don't cry if you get banhammered. I mean the attitude of "I need to know exactly how much of a unfair advantage I can get without risking punishment" seems fairly pathetic to me. Just play the damn game.


So you believe multi-boxing gives an unfair advantage? I've never said it was or wasn't fair, just that its an advantage.

94 (edited by Dazamin 2012-02-23 21:29:34)

Re: Multiboxing

I am paraphrasing others smile Multiboxing happens in most MMOs and I have never particularly noticed the impact on me personally, if it got to the point where it was severely impacting my gameplay, I might me more against it I guess, who knows?

For clarity, it seems theres an assumption that specific people are using software to enhance their gameplay, I am yet to see any evidence to back up this claim. Secondly it bugs me that a number of players are asking about this, not because they are concerned about its impact, but because they want to use it themselves, but don't want to risk bans, the fact you ask the question implies you think there is something wrong with using it, so why do you want to use it?

Re: Multiboxing

What usually happens, is the players that use something 'borderline' all the time, know where that line is. It will be some new player, that sees a triple-stack of gropho's totally own someone, that subs a dozen accounts and gets banned within a week. smile

Re: Multiboxing

Arga wrote:

What usually happens, is the players that use something 'borderline' all the time, know where that line is. It will be some new player, that sees a triple-stack of gropho's totally own someone, that subs a dozen accounts and gets banned within a week. smile

Personally I don't think the devs need to cater to that kind of player, if you want to play on the edge, as Zoom said, sometimes you might fall smile

Re: Multiboxing

Lupus Aurelius wrote:
Ville wrote:
Jelan wrote:

Anni, dont play ignorant or make out like you dont have an anti M2S bias.  The bitterness in most of your posts is troll food on every level. 

Its blantently obvious what Ville et all are trying to suggest, just because they havent said it directly or edited the earlier posts to make it seem like an innocent question, its not.  I welcome the investigation to prove us innocent, however if it was a genuine suspicion the mature sensible thing would have been to report it quietly with all the evidence and await an outcome. 

Not "arrgghh we all died they must be cheating, lets see what they did to beat us by cheating"

I look forward to an apology from the accusers, which of course they wont be man enough to admit, as i said earlier they'll just scream dev bias instead.

You know these are probably the same people that believe in Intelligent Design lol

Jelan if your not going to take the time to to read the entire thread atleast do us a favor and stop trying to spin everything in a  useless troll.  As of right now I noticed something out of the ordinariy and all I want to know is it 100% legal.   As far as I can tell based on a year ago post it is but I want to make sure.

umm, did you say above you usually skip my posts?  might want to take your own advice, and read everything, so that when you reply, also, you actually know what you are replying to.

Tl;dr.:P

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

98 (edited by Dazamin 2012-02-23 22:33:16)

Re: Multiboxing

Btw, this fight can be seen in the Perp videos thread (our own fraps posted by Kaldenines) enjoy

Re: Multiboxing

tbh, if it involves 3rd party software, it should be bannable, period.  Have as many accounts as you want, but if a person want to run more at a time, they have to do it manually. 

Many of us know the botting issues in stEVE, we should not open the door here to that as well, which will eventually include things like macro mining and RMT.

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!

100 (edited by Lupus Aurelius 2012-02-25 16:59:27)

Re: Multiboxing

Well, it seems that after necroing this thread and filling it with 4 pages of replies, that everyone is happy to let it fade back into obscurity.

However, I am not.

Primus:  We are still waiting on the DEVs for a definitive stance and policy concerning the use of 3rd party software for multiboxing.  The majority, myself included, seem to favor that use of 3rd party software for multiboxing, and also “botting” things like mining and assignments, should be a banning offense and violation of the EULA.

Secundus: Despite the EULA policy of not discussing petitions and moderation on these forums, Ville made not only a public statement as to having submitted such, but also the details of that submission, including the names of the characters he was accusing of that activity.

Since such an accusation was made here in this thread, a public statement should be made here as to the results.  Not that I would expect Ville to man up and actually admit that he was wrong and falsely accused someone, so I ask the DEVs, since they know the answer, to give us a public statement in this thread.





P.S. – Ever since Styx’s ban, there are many that have continued to accuse M2S of being cheaters/hackers/Eula violators.  Since Styx’s banning, M2S has been meticulous in making sure that no one in our corps does anything that can affect our membership again.  Twice we have paid the price for 1 person doing wrong, and none of us would allow that to happen again.  It was 8 months ago, we have worked hard to rebuild to the best of our ability, and I, for one, am tired of people blaming their own failures in pvp and tactics with lame excuses of “cheating”.

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!