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Topic: Medium Em Guns and HCl lasers accu consumption

Hi!

I just want to ask somebody why cant use medium EM guns, HCL lasers on Heavys permanently what was the reason ? And what wrong if we can use that things permanently?

I can 10 shot with my Mesmer and then I need to wait 1,5 min to shoot again 5-6 shot yes without accumulator recharger but if always needed recharger is not so good.

Let see the numbers:
1 med EM Gun: 36 AP/7.26 sec =4.96 on Mesmer 6 piece 4.96*6 =29.76 AP/sec

Mesmer accu 4991 AP/590 sec = 8.46 AP/sec on the maximum accu.recharge 8.46*2=16.92

I recharge 16,92 and need 29.76 ! > almost twice
And now just use your guns not more what will amplifier, repairer, hardeners?
With 3 accu recharger almost can use permanently O.o I have 5 leg slot.
With 10 skills ~ 21 AP/ sec. Then you just need 2 recharger.

The Seth and HCL lasers almost same thing probably worse.

I just want to know the reason why cant use that permanently? I thinking: the heavys has more advantage than mechs so they dont need permanent fire.

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD

2 Reply by Alexander (edited by Alexander 2011-09-12 13:39:59)

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Re: Medium Em Guns and HCl lasers accu consumption

Inda wrote:

Hi!

I just want to ask somebody why cant use medium EM guns, HCL lasers on Heavys permanently what was the reason ? And what wrong if we can use that things permanently?

I can 10 shot with my Mesmer and then I need to wait 1,5 min to shoot again 5-6 shot yes without accumulator recharger but if always needed recharger is not so good.

Let see the numbers:
1 med EM Gun: 36 AP/7.26 sec =4.96 on Mesmer 6 piece 4.96*6 =29.76 AP/sec

Mesmer accu 4991 AP/590 sec = 8.46 AP/sec on the maximum accu.recharge 8.46*2=16.92

I recharge 16,92 and need 29.76 ! > almost twice
And now just use your guns not more what will amplifier, repairer, hardeners?
With 3 accu recharger almost can use permanently O.o I have 5 leg slot.
With 10 skills ~ 21 AP/ sec. Then you just need 2 recharger.

The Seth and HCL lasers almost same thing probably worse.

I just want to know the reason why cant use that permanently? I thinking: the heavys has more advantage than mechs so they dont need permanent fire.

Heavy mechs are always hard to make stable and shoot constantly for me than 3 minutes unless you really have high skills and make a fitting designed at shooting constantly.

However on the flip side Seths do seem to be a lot more stable now. I still require a medium energy transfer for PvE but that's because I am not using anything to help with recharge and I am also using a full head of tunings which lowers cycle time.

It all depends what you're fitting but with base skills and standard equipment it's unusual to see a stable heavy mech without a support transfer.

3 Reply by Jasdemi (edited by Jasdemi 2011-10-01 21:12:39)

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Re: Medium Em Guns and HCl lasers accu consumption

Up!

This seems so wrong.

In the past few weeks I've playing from Yagel to Mesmer.


Yagel(no acc issues) => Arbalest (no to little acc issues) => Kain (sometimes, when I have to use a repairer) Mesmer (Can barely keep my acc up and have to sit down and wait mindlessly)

*My both acc stills are at level 8. I wasn't using any acc modules on the above mentioned bots.

So what's the point of this? Why is accumulator getting worse with every tier? I like the idea, that you can't use reps permanently, but weapons? Really?

EDIT: Also, wtf?
Kain: 9.93AP/s
Mesmer: 9.35AP/s
With my skills.

Can anyone please explain why a HEAVY mech with way HEAVIER accumulator and 10x more expensive gets less AP/s than a mech? Is this Hungarian math?

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Re: Medium Em Guns and HCl lasers accu consumption

It's because they want to balance it some way. The mesmer has 30% more damage potential

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  • JOKE
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Re: Medium Em Guns and HCl lasers accu consumption

Well, then they're balancing it wrong, I think. Why not cut the DMG instead of messing Mesmers accumulator and making it pretty unusable for PvE?

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Re: Medium Em Guns and HCl lasers accu consumption

I got an answer from DEV Alf (who the main desinger of balancing) they wanted to support for Heavy Mechs because they are very strong.

But, I dont know that is good, or wrong :S Thats hard question.

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD
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Re: Medium Em Guns and HCl lasers accu consumption

try to oneshot a mech with a yagel wink

then try it with a mesmer

guess which one could do it.

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Re: Medium Em Guns and HCl lasers accu consumption

Whats amazing is about 3 months ago there was a large push to nerf heavy's.

Now that others are getting skilled and wanting to use them more and more...guess what, others see what the Dev's have done to be *** in nature.

This idea of heavy's being TOO strong is all in the eyes of WHAT your attacking them with, heavy's verse heavy's, they go down really fast, heavy's vs lights, not so much, but then again people seem to think that heavy's should die to 4 lights/ewars and have no problem with this.

Its been discussed many a time before...and I expect it to stay the same as the same people who complained about it in the first place still cant use them effectively.

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Re: Medium Em Guns and HCl lasers accu consumption

Keep in mind Heavy Mechs were asked to be nerfed while certain people had access to far more than they should have.

10 Reply by 0110011100001111001010001 (edited by 0110011100001111001010001 2011-10-03 04:16:30)

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Re: Medium Em Guns and HCl lasers accu consumption

So the basis is that M2S cheated and had too many so they had to nerfed.

NOW that everyone has them they MUST continue to be nerfed from someones blatant cheating.

When M2S had them they were not nerfed, after, they got nerfed extremely fast.

Not to fun to be on the receiving end is it?

I mad...I want me heavy to be like it was.....

Just Sayin
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Re: Medium Em Guns and HCl lasers accu consumption

i want medium EM guns and HCL lasers to consume 4 times the accumulator then they do now wink

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Re: Medium Em Guns and HCl lasers accu consumption

Annihilator wrote:

i want medium EM guns and HCL lasers to consume 4 times the accumulator then they do now wink

Not sure if troll or just troll lol

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Re: Medium Em Guns and HCl lasers accu consumption

see it this way:
why do we have accumulator, when you can make it stable with everything?
why do we have 8k accumulator on a seth, when you can only use 4K of it in a burst?
why do we have short and long range weapons, when the difference is so marginal that there is no reason to use the short range ones?

why do laser consume ammo when they also need more accumulator then other weapons?
why can a laser deal kinetic, seismic or chemical damage?

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear
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Re: Medium Em Guns and HCl lasers accu consumption

Rock-paper-scissors balance and "making it stable with everything" takes time/ep and proper fitting.

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Re: Medium Em Guns and HCl lasers accu consumption

Annihilator wrote:

see it this way:
why do we have accumulator, when you can make it stable with everything?
why do we have 8k accumulator on a seth, when you can only use 4K of it in a burst?
why do we have short and long range weapons, when the difference is so marginal that there is no reason to use the short range ones?

why do laser consume ammo when they also need more accumulator then other weapons?
why can a laser deal kinetic, seismic or chemical damage?

Hungarian logic?

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Re: Medium Em Guns and HCl lasers accu consumption

Did you read the ammo descriptions? They are actually nice to read and give the "that could be possible" though.

<GargajCNS> we maim to please
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Re: Medium Em Guns and HCl lasers accu consumption

Gropho laughs at this thread.

In all seriousness, if you could do all that while being cap stable without any energy transfer / rechargers it would be one less reason to play green.

Mesmer does huge amount of burst damage per shot. If you want to do that damage consistently, just fit for it or use a support char its not difficult (you have 5 leg slots after all).

Point is: You CAN fit for cap stability and DPS at the same time. Nothing is stopping you from doing so!

Consistent DPS is the advantage of green, not blue / yellow.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.
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Re: Medium Em Guns and HCl lasers accu consumption

Can you actually make a Seth acc-stable with the minimal cycle times? Without trading off everything for acc rechargers? I think CPU would be a bottleneck.

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Re: Medium Em Guns and HCl lasers accu consumption

replace 1 recharger with 1 medium T3 injector = + 25AP/s recharge (10 units ammo = 8 minutes permarunning injector)

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Re: Medium Em Guns and HCl lasers accu consumption

If they fix yellow/blues accumulator issues, they would have to buff greens damage output by the same magnitude since they took away one of its main advantages.

Does anyone else see why this is a bad idea?

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.
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Re: Medium Em Guns and HCl lasers accu consumption

Keep heavy mechs nerfed. In fact, nerf them even more. -50% damage on all heavies! -50% speed on all heavies! -50% armor on all heavies!

Once such changes are in place, the game can move forward to where it should be. lol

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22 Reply by Smokeyii (edited by Smokeyii 2011-10-27 04:21:16)

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Re: Medium Em Guns and HCl lasers accu consumption

Arga wrote:

Can you actually make a Seth acc-stable with the minimal cycle times? Without trading off everything for acc rechargers? I think CPU would be a bottleneck.


I haven't done the math on it, but my seth mk2 (4 tunings, 1 cpu, 1 sensor, 6 hcl, lwf, 2x t3 med. aux acc, 2x rechargers, med. rep -- all t4 cept the med. aux. acc's) is very close to being stable with 8/7 energy skills -- with the rep running. For pve i follow it around with a lithus mk2 with a medium energy transfer just in case, but havent really needed it.

Ovbiously, it's not built to tank anything at all, but the few times i've been out I forgot to turn off the rep and went thru 2 waves of mechs/heavy mechs, and was still only ~60%.

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Re: Medium Em Guns and HCl lasers accu consumption

Smokeyii wrote:
Arga wrote:

Can you actually make a Seth acc-stable with the minimal cycle times? Without trading off everything for acc rechargers? I think CPU would be a bottleneck.


I haven't done the math on it, but my seth mk2 (4 tunings, 1 cpu, 1 sensor, 6 hcl, lwf, 2x t3 med. aux acc, 2x rechargers, med. rep -- all t4 cept the med. aux. acc's


Stopped reading there.

24 Reply by Sundial (edited by Sundial 2011-10-28 23:01:28)

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Re: Medium Em Guns and HCl lasers accu consumption

Triglav wrote:
Smokeyii wrote:
Arga wrote:

Can you actually make a Seth acc-stable with the minimal cycle times? Without trading off everything for acc rechargers? I think CPU would be a bottleneck.


I haven't done the math on it, but my seth mk2 (4 tunings, 1 cpu, 1 sensor, 6 hcl, lwf, 2x t3 med. aux acc, 2x rechargers, med. rep -- all t4 cept the med. aux. acc's


Stopped reading there.

The progression in this game is non linear, a limitation of some heavys is cap issues, Smokey fit to get around this issue.

If the progression in this game was linear, eventually we would end up with a "titan blobfest" like in EVE where only supercaps were viable in PvP and no one wants that.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

25 Reply by Triglav (edited by Triglav 2011-10-29 19:29:55)

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Re: Medium Em Guns and HCl lasers accu consumption

Disagreed. You just compared one game's mechanic to another game's mechanic for which it has been on multiple times proven that it's (still) broken.


Compare it rather to the ladder of subcaps: frigs, cruisers, BCs, BSs.

These classes scale well. While higher classes get more DPS, they also get gimped in other areas so that their vulnerabilities can still be exploited (lower top speed, lower alignment time, higher lock times, signature resolution ratios,...). How many times have you seen (awesome) vids of groups of frigs or awesome solo cruiser pilots take down BSs? Too many times to count.

Your logic by comparing it to a broken ship (OMFGhitpoints, OMFGwinbutton, OMFGjumpdrive, OMFGdps, OMFGblob) is thus quite obviously flawed.  Hmechs do not have impossible to destroy buffertanks, tanks, dps or anything. Currently they're just gimped because of some general fear that they could become OP. Probably that fear comes from seeing Hmechs in big groups, but ppl tend to forget the interference issues within these groups. Also that fear might come from people not having proper skills to pilot them, while "certain" groups completely dominate the battlefields with them.

Last I saw a small group of lights and assaults took down a mech easily(http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=8824) and I have yet to see a lone Hmech that would survive that hound squad.

This game has more of a problem that people seem to think that in an equal number of players fight between hmechs and "everything_else", the "everything_else" should somehow have at least 50% chance of winning and thus every hmech gets prenerfed or nerfed. Now tell me, for a bot that takes "racial" robot control 8 or 10 (in mk2 variants) and needs advanced robotics over 8 to play properly, why would that class be balanced for a 50% win scenario? Seriously are you all ***? If you want 50% win ratio, then make it cost the same in EP and NIC as light bots and then it can be.

tl;dr: Personally I see no reason to gimp Hmechs (and no, I don't pilot one) with accum issues. There are many ways to counter hmechs in this game, starting with all types of ewar available.


And yes to comment smokey, his fit gets around the accum issues, but leaves the bot with so many vulnerabilities it's just laughable. And even he needs a support bot following him for "just in case" scenarios.


The bottom line is that Hmechs currently fill 2 roles: either supported by secondary chars (dualboxing or teamwork) for close(r) range engagements or long range glass cannons. Let's compare it with eve again: how many roles can the battleship size group of ships(meaning all different BS sized ships) fill? Fukcing any and all and they're still not OP.


Stop this stupid jealous naive *** about hmechs already.


T.