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Re: Easy added incentives to beta!

Syndic wrote:

One thing which would help is to cut off all teleports from Alpha 1 -> Alpha 2, and all teleports from Alpha 1 & Alpha 2 -> Beta 2.

Thus, the old Beta 1 islands would become "crossroads" of sorts, it would become necessary to go through B1 to get to B2, and to go through B1 to get to A2.

I don't think the issue is in the population, or the alpha vs beta ratios (imho, alpha2 is still too mineral-rich with 0 risk, observers are a joke that ignore stationary targets). The issue is in the umbrella of teleports which have absolutely NO bottlenecks or forced routes.

Gradually it could be extrapolated that "Gamma/Beta 3" islands would only be accessible through Beta 2 islands, etc. Thus, protection would become a premium, industrials would have a reason to contract mercenary corporations for convoy protection; over time industrials would band together to move their goods in one go to cut the merc-escort costs, and naturally this would draw the lawless element to the party even more.

Right now:

1. You can live & mine on Alpha 2 in complete safety. (again, observers are a joke that ignore stationary targets so dont mention them as "unsafe", they're only unsafe to nubs).
2. You can reach ANY Beta island from pretty much anywhere in the world, with minimal exposure to Beta travel-risks.
3. There is no reason to live on Beta because if you want, you can get there in 5 minutes, spend 2 hours doing your stuff, extract your goods in 5 minutes. The "risk" is that someone might spot you doing your stuff and get a group together to get there and stop you from leaving/docking in... 5 minutes? Yeah right.

I mean, Beta 2 is BETTER then Beta 1. In the future, Beta 3 or Beta X or whatever you call it, is going to be BETTER then Beta 2. If all of the Beta's, Gamma's, whatever can be reached from Alpha; what is the point in anyone holding the old islands? There's no negotiations to be done, no military escort to provide, no bribes handed off to grease gate guards, no targets for piracy.

It results in what we have now = 2/3 Beta 2 islands being owned, 1/3 Beta 1 island being a warzone, and generally 4/6 Beta islands being empty wastelands. Because there is no incentive to own them, if you can't get a Beta 2 you might as well not bother.

The mentality of "if I mine a sequer of Epri I win" is another dilemma, most of the corps won't risk more then a termis and a sequer on mining because its all they can afford to lose. They're probably proud of building 10-30 mechs a week too.

For those who were around during that time, our mining fleets on "Domsomalia" were 5x times in size that most corps put out TODAY, and "Domsomalia" was almost 6-7 months ago!

That mentality dilemma will never be solved, some people risk what they feel they can afford to lose; others will risk everything they have for maximum efficiency and maximum gain.


WoW, I do aree. BTW I am proud of my 30 bots a week I produce. tongue

[16:03:43] <Mara Gossep> syndic.....and get your *** spy out of our corp
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Re: Easy added incentives to beta!

Bottlenecks and forced routes usually become stronger defence positions for those who live in the area. This may be good in the short term (more fights), but things will have to open up again later if small gang viability is to be maintained.

Cutting Alpha1 off from Betas is probably a good way to go, though.

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Re: Easy added incentives to beta!

Bottlenecks is just a coined phrase I used to better describe what I had in mind, in that concept a "bottleneck" would be the entire Beta 1 islands.

So while a corp emphasising self-dependence and sheer industrial power would probably aim for Beta 2+ because its "the best" ores, "the best spawns", etc yadda yadda... A corp emphasising trade & politics could move into a Beta 1 island and broker trade deals between Alpha 2 and Beta 2 corps.

A pirate corp could settle on a Beta 1 island and do piracy, then it would be up to the corps interested in the area to police & force the pirates to vacate that island for a less patrolled one.

Possibilities are really endless there, but the main idea would be to cut off the no-risk Alpha 2 <-> Alpha 1 route, and the Alpha 1 <-> Beta 2 route.

To offer an analogy, as the Wild West was settled in the US and the boundaries were pushed further and further, the towns that the "frontier" of pioneers left behind had a pretty lucrative position as "middle-men" between the resource-rich west and the industrial-rich east.

If Beta 2 is where the frontier is now, by all rights Beta 1 islands should be settled & bathing in riches as resources and goods were exchanged, but unfortunately due to bad (?) design they are mostly seen as "second best" and as such, only new corps and/or corps that can't grab a Beta 2 island would go there to ninja-mine or w/e. They're near impossible to keep covered anyway, with 5 external teleports each.

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Re: Easy added incentives to beta!

Except that wouldn't work at all, because powerful/old corporations and alliances could just sit at the beta 1 gates and camp people out of the ENTIRE BETA SYSTEM.

This game doesn't need more of the same. There are already enough players camping gates with trial accounts, there's no need to make it even easier for them to do what they're doing already.

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Re: Easy added incentives to beta!

RedKGB wrote:

I was giveing you an easy out to stay silent and save face, but you spoke again.

So you say "shut up" and anyone who is not with you has to shut up?
All you brought was "you don't know what you are talking about" which is NO "easy out" at all but more a "I am out of argument so I try to make the other one look bad". And it was a terrible attemp.

RedKGB wrote:

I have been contacted in game, TS, and on here of other people likeing my ideas.

Who contacted you? Pur Alpha players? Or guys who share your subjectiv gamestyle?
Unlikely you talked to a representative majority.

RedKGB wrote:

But for all honestly look at the killboard here, and on battleclinic. Used the same name for over 10 years. I challange you and anyone else to say I am a hardcore PvPer.

And? Check my name in EvE and Perpetuum boards. I stand with my "I hate PvP" but still you see no or positiv stats. Just as I hate it and do not suport all this crys to nerf PvE content people try hard with stupid stuff like "you have no idear what you talk about".

RedKGB wrote:

You have been in the wrong corps/guilds over the years. If you were to pick some that had some class then you will see things from a different side.

As you don't know in which corps/guilds I was, what I archived and where I failed ... you don't even know how many acc/chars I had in which games.
But I can tell you: I never saw someone who claim "I want PvP" searching for equal fights. They ALLWAYS avoided equal/stronger forces but seek solos, defensless, lower level/equip targets! (well, I saw one group of 10. But they never spammed the forums or any chat).

RedKGB wrote:

In fact I invite you to join us. Stay a month and see how we do things. We are not the greatest corp nor the most powerful, but we strive to be the most fun, for every one in the corp, for the PvPers, the miners, the builders, and the PvErs.

Join us and see us for who we are.

While it might be interesting ... my corp (and their allys) wouldn't be happy about this.


Anyway some facts you ALL miss:
- level 3 industry is BETA ONLY
- Epriton in counteble amounts is BETA ONLY (yes, rare gettings on Alpha)
- till last patch Tier4+ spawn had been BETA ONLY (new random spawns are cool)
- since last patch highest sell price of plasma ON BETA
- best missions (if anyone do them) BETA ONLY
- Alpha has a MUCH lower regrowth rate of Ore/Plants then Beta
- NPC in perpetuum are in no way compareble to the junk from other games. In Eve I died once against while doing Incursions with an Intercepter (sirvived several hours *g*) first NPC death I ever had as 2007 char!! Here I lose a bot once a week against NPCs. (Tryed level 3 Scan Missions? Do it for the fun.)
- Allways funny to get cought by a Grand/Super Observer as miner on Alpha
- Travling spawns are fun too for miners

Alpha is allready slowed down, can't beat Beta producers, earns less, has risk.

Try it, be more friendly, invite neutrals to your islands, protect them ... (yes, Providence MK2). You can say what you want, Providence was a success for 00. It brought MANY new people to 00. CVA might not be your friend, but they did a damn good job for ALL 00 corps/ally! And if it was just to provide you with some target for your roamings.

But for this absolut NOTHINK has to be changed to the game-mechanik!
It's the sandbox you all love so much (player driven content you know??).

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Re: Easy added incentives to beta!

Jack Jombardo wrote:
RedKGB wrote:

I was giveing you an easy out to stay silent and save face, but you spoke again.

So you say "shut up" and anyone who is not with you has to shut up?
All you brought was "you don't know what you are talking about" which is NO "easy out" at all but more a "I am out of argument so I try to make the other one look bad". And it was a terrible attemp.

RedKGB wrote:

I have been contacted in game, TS, and on here of other people likeing my ideas.

Who contacted you? Pur Alpha players? Or guys who share your subjectiv gamestyle?
Unlikely you talked to a representative majority.

RedKGB wrote:

But for all honestly look at the killboard here, and on battleclinic. Used the same name for over 10 years. I challange you and anyone else to say I am a hardcore PvPer.

And? Check my name in EvE and Perpetuum boards. I stand with my "I hate PvP" but still you see no or positiv stats. Just as I hate it and do not suport all this crys to nerf PvE content people try hard with stupid stuff like "you have no idear what you talk about".

RedKGB wrote:

You have been in the wrong corps/guilds over the years. If you were to pick some that had some class then you will see things from a different side.

As you don't know in which corps/guilds I was, what I archived and where I failed ... you don't even know how many acc/chars I had in which games.
But I can tell you: I never saw someone who claim "I want PvP" searching for equal fights. They ALLWAYS avoided equal/stronger forces but seek solos, defensless, lower level/equip targets! (well, I saw one group of 10. But they never spammed the forums or any chat).

RedKGB wrote:

In fact I invite you to join us. Stay a month and see how we do things. We are not the greatest corp nor the most powerful, but we strive to be the most fun, for every one in the corp, for the PvPers, the miners, the builders, and the PvErs.

Join us and see us for who we are.

While it might be interesting ... my corp (and their allys) wouldn't be happy about this.


Anyway some facts you ALL miss:
- level 3 industry is BETA ONLY
- Epriton in counteble amounts is BETA ONLY (yes, rare gettings on Alpha)
- till last patch Tier4+ spawn had been BETA ONLY (new random spawns are cool)
- since last patch highest sell price of plasma ON BETA
- best missions (if anyone do them) BETA ONLY
- Alpha has a MUCH lower regrowth rate of Ore/Plants then Beta
- NPC in perpetuum are in no way compareble to the junk from other games. In Eve I died once against while doing Incursions with an Intercepter (sirvived several hours *g*) first NPC death I ever had as 2007 char!! Here I lose a bot once a week against NPCs. (Tryed level 3 Scan Missions? Do it for the fun.)
- Allways funny to get cought by a Grand/Super Observer as miner on Alpha
- Travling spawns are fun too for miners

Alpha is allready slowed down, can't beat Beta producers, earns less, has risk.

Try it, be more friendly, invite neutrals to your islands, protect them ... (yes, Providence MK2). You can say what you want, Providence was a success for 00. It brought MANY new people to 00. CVA might not be your friend, but they did a damn good job for ALL 00 corps/ally! And if it was just to provide you with some target for your roamings.

But for this absolut NOTHINK has to be changed to the game-mechanik!
It's the sandbox you all love so much (player driven content you know??).

There was no attempt to tell you to shut up. But from just about every post you attempt to tell others to shut up. That you dont like there ideas. That you dont want to read/hear about them any more. When others offer a different apporach you jump all over them for trying to force you todo something that was never stated before.

Did I say it was a majority? Did I say 5 people, 20 people or 5000 thousand people? No, I did not, nor have I ever claimed to speak for anyone.

I dont care if you hate PvP. I dont care if you love PvP. If you dont want to PvP then dont. No one is forceing you to. I was offering an example that not every one that wants to see changes is a die hard beta PvPer. You did not want to see that. You see beta and jump all over the idea that anyone haveing anything todo with beta in any shape or form must be an evil PvPer that is out to ruin your game. They are not. Are there folks out there like that yes, but does that mean everyone is that way? No.

You yourself spoke of other games and the way they played. In fact you very next statment reinforces what you said about being in corps/guilds that have no class.

Here some facts, lvl indstry saves you time, thats a big whoop, yea I save 15 mintues, yea a whole 15 mintues, whoo hoo.
Eprition is a plus for beta.
I dont care about T4 spawns, I am noncombat. But from what I have heard that the spawns must be done in mechs and higher, raiseing the risk of a lost bot that is harder to replace then an assult on aphla islands.
Dont know about the price of plasma, like I said I dont do combat.
your whineing that NPC's are to hard? Even on alpha?
You think your the only one to lose a bot doing scan missions? really?
Here is a hint, when a roveing band come thru dont move. It has worked for me from alpha to beta and back again.

I gave you an honest invite to the corp. Yet you back out saying that your corp and allaince would not approve. Are you playing for them or for yourself? I gave you a chance to change your insights with a first hand look, and you backed away.

How can you get more friendly then inviteing some one to join, no strings attached? You speak on one hand then turn two face with your next statment.

I could be wrong but is player driven change the same as player driven content? Seeing how the change is content in and of itself?

Your showwing yourself tobe a troll.

Are you willing to change what you belive in? Are you willing to admit when you are wrong?

I have, even in this thread I admitted it. But I am willing to change, are you willing, or are you some one that holds steadfastly to a belief and refuses to even consider other options?

[16:03:43] <Mara Gossep> syndic.....and get your *** spy out of our corp
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Re: Easy added incentives to beta!

Rico Rage wrote:

Except that wouldn't work at all, because powerful/old corporations and alliances could just sit at the beta 1 gates and camp people out of the ENTIRE BETA SYSTEM.

This game doesn't need more of the same. There are already enough players camping gates with trial accounts, there's no need to make it even easier for them to do what they're doing already.

But would that "work" and achieve it's intended goal? Consider... The "old corps & alliances" could indeed camp gates. Let's assume corp X lives on a Beta 2 island, if they send their combat pilots to camp 5 gates on a different island, who is going to protect their miners/farmers?

Consider the possibility of corp Y moving into that Beta 1 island. Does corp X continue to camp gates on that island, faced with potential attackers/roamers from BOTH sides of the gate, or do they withdraw to their native island and defend in a better position where the enemy can only come from 1 direction, instead of from 2?

If we're talking about incentives for people living on Beta, owning an island whose main value is in it's trade & teleport routes would be a pretty big incentive. Think about it, the existing teleports are near-impossible to cover completely 24/7 at 5 gates across the whole map.

Then there is also logistics, if corp X is living in Beta 2, and they are being b*tchy towards corp Y living on the Beta 1 island; corp Y could simply lock them out of their outposts. Good luck resupplying lost bots from 1-2 islands away in full-PVP zones, the potential for ambush is just awesome.

Again, the corps living on the Beta 1 islands could compete with each other for trading tariffs because hey; if island X has significantly lower tariffs for moving through their gates, people are gonna move through there because they'll make a bigger profit margin.

It would complicate the game in a good way, as economics and politics would become more important then pure military might.

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Re: Easy added incentives to beta!

Syndic wrote:
Rico Rage wrote:

Except that wouldn't work at all, because powerful/old corporations and alliances could just sit at the beta 1 gates and camp people out of the ENTIRE BETA SYSTEM.

This game doesn't need more of the same. There are already enough players camping gates with trial accounts, there's no need to make it even easier for them to do what they're doing already.

But would that "work" and achieve it's intended goal? Consider... The "old corps & alliances" could indeed camp gates. Let's assume corp X lives on a Beta 2 island, if they send their combat pilots to camp 5 gates on a different island, who is going to protect their miners/farmers?

Consider the possibility of corp Y moving into that Beta 1 island. Does corp X continue to camp gates on that island, faced with potential attackers/roamers from BOTH sides of the gate, or do they withdraw to their native island and defend in a better position where the enemy can only come from 1 direction, instead of from 2?

If we're talking about incentives for people living on Beta, owning an island whose main value is in it's trade & teleport routes would be a pretty big incentive. Think about it, the existing teleports are near-impossible to cover completely 24/7 at 5 gates across the whole map.

Then there is also logistics, if corp X is living in Beta 2, and they are being b*tchy towards corp Y living on the Beta 1 island; corp Y could simply lock them out of their outposts. Good luck resupplying lost bots from 1-2 islands away in full-PVP zones, the potential for ambush is just awesome.

Again, the corps living on the Beta 1 islands could compete with each other for trading tariffs because hey; if island X has significantly lower tariffs for moving through their gates, people are gonna move through there because they'll make a bigger profit margin.

It would complicate the game in a good way, as economics and politics would become more important then pure military might.

Don't be stupid. If camping Beta 1 routes is in any way priofitable, than Beta 2 corps would be stupid in not doing so. They can "own" a beta 1 island and resuplyt from the connected alphas while mining and farming on the beta 1 to boost profits even more ... what has beta 2 to offer then ? worse supply routes ?

59 Reply by Jack Jombardo (edited by Jack Jombardo 2011-08-29 03:55:29)

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Re: Easy added incentives to beta!

First off yes, inviting people (like me) to join is the way to get more people to Beta (and maybe PvP).

As I said, I would like to test your Corp ... but you should understand, that my Corp and it's Allys wouldn't be happy about it wink.

RedKGB wrote:

If you dont want to PvP then dont. No one is forceing you to.

And that's the hole point.

All I see is "we need beta only stuff to force people into Beta" or "we need a way PvE-Player are forced to pass PvP land".

Aren't my real Euros as good as yours?
Why should I get just half the stuff you get for the same price?
Is there a 50% offer which I missed for people who don't like to PvP but still want to play the game as Producers without limits?

I except, that you CAN make much more money on Beta ... and I am fine with it.

I can not except, that there some of you try hardcore to make stuff Beta ONLY!

Like Epriton atm.
Yes, I was angry about the T1 change ... but I have to gratulate the DEVs. With the Rare-Ores and the CHANGS to get Epri as Highsec miner, they did a good work.

It is very limited, but you CAN survive in a very small scale without Beta! I take this handycap by my own decision!


Again, I pay the same Euro as you do.
If I pass some content by my free will ... FINE.
But it is a absolut and 100% NO GO to cap parts of the game (like this very stupid "T4 beta only production"). Alpha only players are allready handycaped by T2-Industrie!


PS: and you can be sure, when I am forced to go to Beta (as I can't build T4 on alpha any more for excample) ... I stop playing this game.
And I will not be the only one.

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Re: Easy added incentives to beta!

Jack Jombardo wrote:

First off yes, inviting people (like me) to join is the way to get more people to Beta (and maybe PvP).

As I said, I would like to test your Corp ... but you should understand, that my Corp and it's Allys wouldn't be happy about it wink.

RedKGB wrote:

If you dont want to PvP then dont. No one is forceing you to.

And that's the hole point.

All I see is "we need beta only stuff to force people into Beta" or "we need a way PvE-Player are forced to pass PvP land".

Aren't my real Euros as good as yours?
Why should I get just half the stuff you get for the same price?
Is there a 50% offer which I missed for people who don't like to PvP but still want to play the game as Producers without limits?

I except, that you CAN make much more money on Beta ... and I am fine with it.

I can not except, that there some of you try hardcore to make stuff Beta ONLY!

Like Epriton atm.
Yes, I was angry about the T1 change ... but I have to gratulate the DEVs. With the Rare-Ores and the CHANGS to get Epri as Highsec miner, they did a good work.

It is very limited, but you CAN survive in a very small scale without Beta! I take this handycap by my own decision!


Again, I pay the same Euro as you do.
If I pass some content by my free will ... FINE.
But it is a absolut and 100% NO GO to cap parts of the game (like this very stupid "T4 beta only production"). Alpha only players are allready handycaped by T2-Industrie!


PS: and you can be sure, when I am forced to go to Beta (as I can't build T4 on alpha any more for excample) ... I stop playing this game.
And I will not be the only one.


As a carebear, I would like the greater risk of beta to have a greater reward. My only reward for beta is epi, and thats only if we have 5 guys watching gates. The reward at this time does not out wiegh the risk.

[16:03:43] <Mara Gossep> syndic.....and get your *** spy out of our corp

61 Reply by Jack Jombardo (edited by Jack Jombardo 2011-08-29 04:27:05)

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Re: Easy added incentives to beta!

RedKGB wrote:

As a carebear, I would like the greater risk of beta to have a greater reward. My only reward for beta is epi, and thats only if we have 5 guys watching gates. The reward at this time does not out wiegh the risk.

I understand and except this point.

But what will change with all the sugested idears for you as carebear? And how do they effect the defending army? Do you need less people to protect you then? Can you stop guarding the teleporters?

Higher rewards -> more people want it
more people -> you need a bigger protection Army
more overall Beta population -> ganging squads smell more easy targets
more easy targets -> more ganing squads
more ganing squads -> you need a even bigger defending army

Risk is allways to die ... it's just the question: how often do you die?

With more ganing squads you will reach the point, where rewards are to low AGAIN very soon.



Again: how will this sugested changes do any good for carebears on Beta?
Don't they just bring more easy targets to ganging squads?


PS: here are my sugestions:
- first get right of this damn Corp-Only-Market to revive the free Market
- wait for the Terminal/Sov Changes which are enounced (they sound realy cool espezialy the Defend-Towers).
- do some advertisement to get a bigger overall population (this will bring new Alpha player and drive old one to Beta when Alpha is overcrowded)

The two last sugestions will bring more people into your corps and provide more safty near your outpost ... and somethink worth to fight (die) for.

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Re: Easy added incentives to beta!

Jack Jombardo wrote:
RedKGB wrote:

As a carebear, I would like the greater risk of beta to have a greater reward. My only reward for beta is epi, and thats only if we have 5 guys watching gates. The reward at this time does not out wiegh the risk.

I understand and except this point.

But what will change with all the sugested idears for you as carebear? And how do they effect the defending army? Do you need less people to protect you then? Can you stop guarding the teleporters?

Higher rewards -> more people want it
more people -> you need a bigger protection Army
more overall Beta population -> ganging squads smell more easy targets
more easy targets -> more ganing squads
more ganing squads -> you need a even bigger defending army

Risk is allways to die ... it's just the question: how often do you die?

With more ganing squads you will reach the point, where rewards are to low AGAIN very soon.



Again: how will this sugested changes do any good for carebears on Beta?
Don't they just bring more easy targets to ganging squads?


PS: here are my sugestions:
- first get right of this damn Corp-Only-Market to revive the free Market
- wait for the Terminal/Sov Changes which are enounced (they sound realy cool espezialy the Defend-Towers).
- do some advertisement to get a bigger overall population (this will bring new Alpha player and drive old one to Beta when Alpha is overcrowded)

The two last sugestions will bring more people into your corps and provide more safty near your outpost ... and somethink worth to fight (die) for.

I respect the fact or precived fact that you want to stay on alpha.

I agree with no more in corp only market.
I and the corp are looking foward to the beta sov changes.
I have been advertisin, heck I been trying to get you now for two days.

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Re: Easy added incentives to beta!

RedKGB wrote:

I have been advertisin, heck I been trying to get you now for two days.

Is my english that bad?

And I thought more of offiziel advertising from the DEVs & Avatar Creations.

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Re: Easy added incentives to beta!

Jack Jombardo wrote:
RedKGB wrote:

I have been advertisin, heck I been trying to get you now for two days.

Is my english that bad?

And I thought more of offiziel advertising from the DEVs & Avatar Creations.

No, just really tired before going to bed, spelling correctly is to much effort.

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Re: Easy added incentives to beta!

Jack Jombardo wrote:
RedKGB wrote:

As a carebear, I would like the greater risk of beta to have a greater reward. My only reward for beta is epi, and thats only if we have 5 guys watching gates. The reward at this time does not out wiegh the risk.

I understand and except this point.

But what will change with all the sugested idears for you as carebear? And how do they effect the defending army? Do you need less people to protect you then? Can you stop guarding the teleporters?

Higher rewards -> more people want it
more people -> you need a bigger protection Army
more overall Beta population -> ganging squads smell more easy targets
more easy targets -> more ganing squads
more ganing squads -> you need a even bigger defending army

Risk is allways to die ... it's just the question: how often do you die?

With more ganing squads you will reach the point, where rewards are to low AGAIN very soon.



Again: how will this sugested changes do any good for carebears on Beta?
Don't they just bring more easy targets to ganging squads?


PS: here are my sugestions:
- first get right of this damn Corp-Only-Market to revive the free Market
- wait for the Terminal/Sov Changes which are enounced (they sound realy cool espezialy the Defend-Towers).
- do some advertisement to get a bigger overall population (this will bring new Alpha player and drive old one to Beta when Alpha is overcrowded)

The two last sugestions will bring more people into your corps and provide more safty near your outpost ... and somethink worth to fight (die) for.

You don't need a zerg to defend against a larger force, simple tactics and scouting can easily secure ops without sustaining losses. There does need to be a higher population for our current island count though, not that we should lose some islands. This will increase roams, both enemy and friendly which is what's needed. But with proper tactics you can still easily prevent losses.