Topic: Norhoop, Kentagura and Domhalarn should be changed to NPC Beta Zones

The three islands named in the title should:

I. Have two or three of their outposts removed (Hokk and Kent should be flipped, quality and outpost wise)
II. Have the last outpost held by an npc corp, with players unable to capture it
III. Have the spawns near the TP and the outpost reduced in strength to tier 2 lights and assaults
IV. Have the spawns, plants and exploitable field quality reduced so that they sit between the beta islands that can be captured and above the alpah 2 islands
V. Have their internal TPs removed (with highways broken into sections with large gaps between them connecting the outposts and the external TPs)

I: There are an excessive number of outposts on all three islands (pretend that Kent and Hokk have been switched wrt outposts). Reducing the number would increase player density at the one or two remaining outposts, providing more opportunities for pvp.

II: No one lives on any of these islands in significant numbers. We roam all three regularly and they are zombie at pretty much all hours. Some people probably live there, but they're not active enough to make them interesting targets. Turning these areas into "freeports" would make them more interesting to new corps and players looking for a place to live on beta where they'd always be able to dock.

III: These islands should be more for new players to get their feet wet in a pvp zone. As such they need stuff that they can farm easily. It also ensures that older players will have to move further from the safe zone that is the termial or tps, making them more vulnerable. NPC 0.0 serves a similar function in EVE, and has been the launching point for many a future infamous corp (the most notable, of course, being Goonswarm)

IV: These should be lower quality than capturable betas because players are not at risk of being locked out from their stuff. They should also have lower quality so that players are motivated to attack and take the better islands from their enemies

V: Internal TPs should go to reduce the ability of players to travel at high speed about the island. They're not good for pvp (gate camping is lame) and they're not good for pve (because they serve as focal points for ratting and thus hunting ratters). Broken up highways would prove a concentration point for travel that would serve the same focus of generating pvp by having an obvious transit location. Breaking them into sections (preferably with cover so that fights in those spots can be more entertaining) reduces the average speed of travel and makes cross country routes viable (allowing the crafty player to dodge pursuit or ambush with a circuitous route). 


Summary: Re-purposing infrequently used betas into incubators for new corps who want to pvp but cannot capture an outpost from a current holder (or for older corps that want to pvp without the hassle of politics and taking an outpost) would increase player density on beta and provide more regular and frequent pvp. It would also create more competition over the existing outposts that can be captured, as they'd be reduced from 15 to 6, increasing the tempo and importance of sov fights. Finally these areas would provide a staging point for alpha industrial corps that wish to mine epi but don't have a viable staging point.

For these and many other reasons the islands named above should be changed in the fashion described here.

Re: Norhoop, Kentagura and Domhalarn should be changed to NPC Beta Zones

not to rain on the idea, because I think in general something needs to change, but...

PVP just for fun is already being done by those that want to do it just for fun
PVP based objectives are something people want more of, not less
Alpha corps aren't going to go into Free for all war zones to ninja mine, that's like strapping raw meat on and jumping into the shark tank at sea world, you don't go mining where you know there's roams, you want to mine where you think they won't be.

Something does need to change, but putting more pvp objectives in as incentive is the right direction, not just more uncontensted space.

Re: Norhoop, Kentagura and Domhalarn should be changed to NPC Beta Zones

I don't think this would happen. When they added extra islands not too long ago, they did so to support the growing population of the game, or at least in anticipation of it. The problem isn't the islands and their stature, it's the lack of players in the game to fill them. To repurpose them would only be a temporary solution. Eventually they'd need more again if they did get more active players. But the problem remains that they made them to cater to larger crowds, but haven't perfected the bringing in of the crowds part and keeping them.

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Re: Norhoop, Kentagura and Domhalarn should be changed to NPC Beta Zones

You've got to have NPC pvp space if you want players to move into conquerable space. Players need to get an idea of the logistical commitment they're making, and they need someplace where they can prove that they're able to handle pvp coming to them at any time.

It's something this game is definitely lacking, while it also has a ton of capturable outposts that are all owned by a small group of corps (many of whom have multiple).

Re: Norhoop, Kentagura and Domhalarn should be changed to NPC Beta Zones

The outpost capture changes have been announced, no idea what they are acutally going to end up as, but I think the days of unattended ownership are over once (soon?) that change is implemented.

6 (edited by AeonThePiglet 2011-08-18 20:11:41)

Re: Norhoop, Kentagura and Domhalarn should be changed to NPC Beta Zones

Arga wrote:

The outpost capture changes have been announced, no idea what they are acutally going to end up as, but I think the days of unattended ownership are over once (soon?) that change is implemented.

Not really an improvement. 15 outposts is too many. Six, on the other hand, would provide a seriously concentrated conquerable beta environment. The NPC beta would provide a home for those that don't want to, or can't afford to, compete.

I'd be honestly surprised if more than a couple outposts on Hokk were contested, and those by M2S/62nd and co. There just aren't that many corps interested in taking one on Dom or Norhoop or Kent. We might go after one in one of those locations, but we're only one corp and there aren't exactly a ton of others raring to take an outpost for themselves.

I mean, who besides NEX would you point to as a likely inhabitant of one of those three islands that doesn't already have an outpost?

Flipping three of the islands to NPC control but keeping them pvp flagged would give people a non-alpha home that they couldn't be locked out of. It'd also greatly increase the tension between beta corps in a manner consistent with Boyle's Law (as volume decreases, pressure increases!).

Re: Norhoop, Kentagura and Domhalarn should be changed to NPC Beta Zones

I totally agree, I did the math and there's no way the current pop can hold more then 4 or 5 outposts. But not holding them doesn't mean they have to be changed, it just means they'll be empty. It also means they can be captured easily with 1 SAP, but not held, so it acutally creates the situation your talking about, where small corps get to 'practice' taking and holding an outpost. The only issue is if they think they'll acutally keep it, and 'move in', and it won't go well. But 6 or 7 outposts changing hands daily would actually be more dynamic then having nothing or trying to continually beat down the 4 corps that can hold one.

Re: Norhoop, Kentagura and Domhalarn should be changed to NPC Beta Zones

A bunch of waste space is silly. Convert it into NPC space so that it provides a greater sense of security for the inhabitants.

In a situation where there's a lot of land available to be claimed there's a strong incumbency benefit -- if you already hold terf and there is empty land of similar quality available, players will prefer to capture that land rather than yours -- path of least resistance. Meaning no pvp.

So you'd end up with a system where there are a bunch of people who hold outposts and nobody trying to take those outposts from them because, uh, why bother? Meaning a dead boring beta environment without any real war, just a bunch of roaming. Roaming is fun, but the political shenanigans of a battle for control are what sells copy.

Re: Norhoop, Kentagura and Domhalarn should be changed to NPC Beta Zones

More islands and fewer outpost per island is the key.
Why live on beta unless you have an army of scouts and then where is the fun in PVP if you don't get any.

How it should be:
Outposts = safe haven away from intrusion. Easily defended if directly assaulted
2km from outpost = unsafe as intrusions happen here. Equal footing as to defendable vs attackable.
Rest of island = Mineral rich.

Re: Norhoop, Kentagura and Domhalarn should be changed to NPC Beta Zones

There's a huge divide between the corps that can and can't hold an outpost.

What I mean is there's no trailing corps almost big enough. 4 or 5 corps will take outposts, the remainder of the corps would just be going for 'fun' to attack SAP's without much chance of actually taking those posts.

With the current pop, you'd have to lower the outpost count to 3 in order to create competition. Even the stronger corps now are based on alliances and not the shear numbers to keep an outpost. The PVP action will center around the outposts with the lowest %'s and anyone at 100%, something in the middle 80's won't generate a lot of defensive actions.

11 (edited by Goffer 2011-08-19 08:28:49)

Re: Norhoop, Kentagura and Domhalarn should be changed to NPC Beta Zones

Those island might came back into usage as soon, as there is no need to blob up live there as roams tended to blob up the last weeks.

No need to fight in small number if you can be sure that whenever you flag up, the enemy is avoiding real confrontation until bringing enough friends.
While I didn't see Nex avoiding the fight in small numbers, I saw Nex beeing part of the blob that cames if you flag up. So don't say your not part of the problem. Your just not the worse part of the problem from my point of view.
I think the situation will change as soon as new outpost behavior is getting into game.

You might still see that going on roam is not a guarantee to find enemies. But you can change this, make yourself acceptable targets for others roaming, by living on beta without hiding in large blobs. In that case you might at least experience some pvp.

Re: Norhoop, Kentagura and Domhalarn should be changed to NPC Beta Zones

one thing about EVE in your analogy does not compute.

NPC 0.0 worked for 2 things:

1. It was not claimable, so there was little incentive go after anything other than valuable moons for the large power blocks/alliances.
2. You can build your own home in EVE (a POS) as a corporation and escaping is easy (warp from pos shield to a celestial and log off) in case it turned sour for you.

Especialy part 2 is NOT true in PO. You cannot build your own defensible structure and reaching it/escaping is way more dangerous since you can only run on land and easily interceptible everywhere.

There's way much more danger when moving around a PvP zone in PO than there is in EVE.

Also one BIG difference, places to live are known by everyone (static structures on the map) vs POSes you had to scout for (still in fixed locations but you had to look for them).

I am all for your idea once we are able to set up temporary and defended camps (like POSes in EVE).

Re: Norhoop, Kentagura and Domhalarn should be changed to NPC Beta Zones

The Beta-1 islands already have NPC terminals that can't captured by players. This makes them an "ideal" location for new corporations entering the game to base out of, being no-risk and all that jazz.

Beta-2 are better then Beta-1 islands (-1 teleport, no NPC terminal, much better spawns, etc). This is good scaling of PVP-zones.

Everything you ask for is already in-game, it's just not being utilized for whatever reason.

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Re: Norhoop, Kentagura and Domhalarn should be changed to NPC Beta Zones

didnt read everything, but this sounds like "owning an outpost" means "owning the territory around it, which is not true.

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Re: Norhoop, Kentagura and Domhalarn should be changed to NPC Beta Zones

The npc terminals aren't exactly advertising the fact. More importantly, they can't serve as an incubator when defended like Nova blah blah no term there blah blah. That's why I think splitting sov and non-sov betas is a good idea. It'd make a pvp zone no one would have an incentive to camp.

Hugh Raka wrote:

1. It was not claimable, so there was little incentive go after anything other than valuable moons for the large power blocks/alliances.
2. You can build your own home in EVE (a POS) as a corporation and escaping is easy (warp from pos shield to a celestial and log off) in case it turned sour for you.

1 I'll grant you. It's why I made this post.

2 I'm gonna disagree with, mostly because I remember living out of a station plenty of times in npc 0.0. The bigger difference here is the lack of instas, but you can dock up without losing syndicate for more than a few seconds so that's good enough I guess.

Plus I kinda think we need space for player structures, and to get that we need fewer statics. Big thing for us about npc 0.0 was we got to play minus the sov junk. I think that's something people are gonna start wanting sooner rather than later, and I think getting those people off alpha on a day to day level is more important than anything else.

Goffer wrote:

Those island might came back into usage as soon, as there is no need to blob up live there as roams tended to blob up the last weeks.

No need to fight in small number if you can be sure that whenever you flag up, the enemy is avoiding real confrontation until bringing enough friends.
While I didn't see Nex avoiding the fight in small numbers, I saw Nex beeing part of the blob that cames if you flag up. So don't say your not part of the problem. Your just not the worse part of the problem from my point of view.
I think the situation will change as soon as new outpost behavior is getting into game.

You might still see that going on roam is not a guarantee to find enemies. But you can change this, make yourself acceptable targets for others roaming, by living on beta without hiding in large blobs. In that case you might at least experience some pvp.

Holy Christ. I thought I banished the blob whining and yet here it is. Like herpes. Shut up about blobs, no one cares. It doesn't make you look leet, it makes you look like a sore loser who can't tell the diff between corp dialog channel and feat and req.

If you'd like to discuss NEX and our military habits, feel free to pm me.

Re: Norhoop, Kentagura and Domhalarn should be changed to NPC Beta Zones

AeonThePiglet wrote:

The npc terminals aren't exactly advertising the fact. More importantly, they can't serve as an incubator when defended like Nova blah blah no term there blah blah. That's why I think splitting sov and non-sov betas is a good idea. It'd make a pvp zone no one would have an incentive to camp.

Hugh Raka wrote:

1. It was not claimable, so there was little incentive go after anything other than valuable moons for the large power blocks/alliances.
2. You can build your own home in EVE (a POS) as a corporation and escaping is easy (warp from pos shield to a celestial and log off) in case it turned sour for you.

1 I'll grant you. It's why I made this post.

2 I'm gonna disagree with, mostly because I remember living out of a station plenty of times in npc 0.0. The bigger difference here is the lack of instas, but you can dock up without losing syndicate for more than a few seconds so that's good enough I guess.

Plus I kinda think we need space for player structures, and to get that we need fewer statics. Big thing for us about npc 0.0 was we got to play minus the sov junk. I think that's something people are gonna start wanting sooner rather than later, and I think getting those people off alpha on a day to day level is more important than anything else.

that's correct. only the NPC stations with good exit points (i.e. non amarr) saw ANY population. however NPC 0.0 station worked mostly for mercenary/PvP corporations. any industrial corporation prefered POSes.

it is much MUCH easier to maintain a POS in NPC 0.0 (or was until capitals were introduced).

I've seen som pretty nice spots on the islands with a narrow and long route to them that could be perfectly defended by a few people (i.e. 20 head corp) with some aid from automated defences. however we cannot build any structures.

Re: Norhoop, Kentagura and Domhalarn should be changed to NPC Beta Zones

I mean sure a can that popped a shield where you could sit logged out safely (bot wouldn't disappear, but you'd be safe) would be nice. Guns around it would help a bit.

But there's nowhere to put them on most islands in beta. They have tons of statics taking up all the space. It's weird; beta is crowded with statics and light on people when it should really be the other way around.

Re: Norhoop, Kentagura and Domhalarn should be changed to NPC Beta Zones

AeonThePiglet wrote:

The npc terminals aren't exactly advertising the fact. More importantly, they can't serve as an incubator when defended like Nova blah blah no term there blah blah. That's why I think splitting sov and non-sov betas is a good idea. It'd make a pvp zone no one would have an incentive to camp.

Can't believe you've played EVE and didn't learned anything of it.
The incentive of camping in 99% of all cases is: getting easy kills without risk - not defending something. You should remember low-sec and 0.0. Vastly dead and empty although you had much much better possibilities to escape or survive an aggression in EVE than in Perp.



AeonThePiglet wrote:

Holy Christ. I thought I banished the blob whining and yet here it is. Like herpes. Shut up about blobs, no one cares. It doesn't make you look leet, it makes you look like a sore loser who can't tell the diff between corp dialog channel and feat and req.

If you'd like to discuss NEX and our military habits, feel free to pm me.

"Been there, done that, got the T-Shirt" this attitude doens't make you look leet either. In fact: don't behave like a ***. NEX is part of the blob and even encourages it. Being the biggest corp ingame, only 2 months old and already blueballing other entities. You dare to talk about young and small corps going to beta? Ridiculous.
And yes i do care about "the blob". Of course i'm nobody and somehow you're right. The problem is that a lot of "nobodies" play this game ... that's why user peak is where it is.

Re: Norhoop, Kentagura and Domhalarn should be changed to NPC Beta Zones

People blob in this game because they can and they always will be able to. The larger this game gets, the more people there will be in blobs. It doesn't matter what anyone says to the contrary, they happen and if you don't have enough friends to counter it on any particular day, well it's your turn to stay docked up my friend.

This game is quite PvP centric, so given that, blobs should be even more expected. When the other systems in place are mainly conduits to getting bots and mods to PvP with, it's quite inescapable. We have plenty of reasons to fight in this game, but there really aren't many systems to distract or deter from it. While this may be a sandbox game, it focus' mostly on PvP as opposed to all spectrums of an MMO, thus it draws in more people to crowding PvP. When that happens, how can you tell people to not fight together when that's about the only interesting thing to do?

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