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Re: Communal Corps & Sell Orders

So, PIE is also actively putting tiered items, up to our max research level, onto the market.

Why aren't you seeing T3 Geoscanners at cost, you ask?

Putting desireable modules up into the market at a 5% discount encourages other producers to reduce their prices, putting modules up at 50% results in market players buying them up and reposting them at 110%.

The desireable effect is to get tiered items into the hands of the people that are going to blow them up, so there will be more demand for them, and eventually producers will make up in volume what they lose in margin.

Another key factor is the availablity of Epitron and Norgalis to produce the items.

The price of beta materials are much more sensitve to demand because of the low volumes, as more modules get traded, the demand for these materials is going to rise in a semi-fixed supply environment.

So, while it is certainly our #1 priority in PIE, you CAN expect to be seeing more and varied Tiered items appearing on the market, but it will be a long time before the prices stabilize where solo or small corp players can afford to buy them.

Which leads into larger corps, which by definition have the largest potential market for tiered gear, making items internally and selling it on the corp and open market. Small corps have a smaller capital budget, so require a faster turn-over to continue producing, and so will reduce prices and sell at lower margins. The larger corp, especially if it is beta-based, will eventually be able to reduce pricing below the manufactoring cost of the small corp due to a less dynamic pricing of epitron and access to the best refining.

If the communal corps which -as you made the point in the podcast- undervalue the time for mining jump into the market, they could simply make it unprofitable for small corps to use the market. Which would create the scenerio you also described where the small corps simply fold because it's unsustainable. So, in that sense it's probably a good thing while the player base is still small, that beta-based corporations are not competing directly in the market, because while their would be a short-term gain in the availabilty and pricing of modules, it would eventually end up being just a few large producers supplying the entire market.

tl;dr - Corporations with access to beta resources, refining and materials, would dominate the market because the player base - potential customer demand base not being supplied by thier own commune corp - is low enough that one large corp could supply it.

27 Reply by Gharl Incognito (edited by Gharl Incognito 2011-07-26 04:43:00)

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Re: Communal Corps & Sell Orders

Arga, what you said also paves the way inter-corp co-operation based on trade and production alone however.  If a single large commune corp is flooding the market then the mentioned small corps would have reason to work co-operativly to produce items and robots.

I mean, I would love to see the day when small corps are making deals like "ok, you get 200 U of Epitron, we get 3 weeks access to your lev. 3 recycling facility"(example).  The corps continue to PvP in the field(it's all about competition for resource after all) but in the case of a few registered production ops they wave a white flag.

Same could be said of something like "you provide 70% of the raw materials and we provide the knowledge base and manufacturing, we then split the dividend from the sale of the modules".  Deals that would expedite the the manufacturing processes of the game without forming 'blob' alliences.

EDIT: The point of these deals would be to access the highest level facilities in the game without taking over the world.

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Re: Communal Corps & Sell Orders

Back in Dom, the post-E-corp alliance was paid by Love for beta access, so they could farm kernels. If people want to do that or similar deals - there is nothing stopping them from doing that. But doing ninja farming is easier - don't have to talk to other people wink If too many people think like that - we won't have anything like that done. Maybe the contracts will change it - not so much interaction needed wink

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29 Reply by Winter Solstice (edited by Winter Solstice 2011-07-26 13:13:26)

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Re: Communal Corps & Sell Orders

Arga wrote:

tl;dr - Corporations with access to beta resources, refining and materials, would dominate the market because the player base - potential customer demand base not being supplied by thier own commune corp - is low enough that one large corp could supply it.

This is with the assumption that the commune corp would choose to function this way and counteract their usual philosophy of 'do not fund the enemy with modules'.  The more capitalistic view is 'fund the wallets with NIC'.  Ore costs money to us - the miners need to earn too, as do the manufacturers  Their time in the field is not "free cash" - plasma isn't coming up with that ore, and at the end of the day, they pay the same $9.95/mo as a PvPer/PvEer and deserve to earn the same "wage" in game. 

Corp subsidization for the corp market mods and bots Initial puchase by corpmembers (no free bots folks) also needs to be replaced to balance the budget as the tax rate of NeX is low (10%).  We would not be listing small laser cells at 30nic a piece. wink  They would need to be listed to a) pay the miners for their ore and b) balance the budget, at the volumes we'd be capable of.  The wallet also subsidizes the PvP arm (subsidizes, not reimburses) as well as manufacturing costs - we pewpew and we buildbuild equally. 

We can imagine a nightmare scenario of an overdomination of the market by one corp, but at the moment, ANY market now is better than how it is currently suffering.  As Market domination is not the grand intent, I can't even imagine how to discuss that concept.  I just know it's not the plan to crush anyone out.  If you're making mod X, then we don't have to clog a line with it and compete and lose profit that way.  So there you go.

There is a measure of altriusm in what I was saying, and as Gharl points out, options begin to open for industrial diplomacy instead of everything running 100% guns and PvP.  The Indys in these games are the unsung heroes and at least in my mind their work will not be undervalued - and that value is measured in NIC earnable on an open free market.

Damn I need more coffee.

edit: to add less srs bsns: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ej_H8wYo … p;index=34

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Re: Communal Corps & Sell Orders

Personally I think there is quite enough fear-mongering going on in-game about one corp dominating this and that, it certainly doesn't help the game grow in any way.

I think however that the main point which makes your scenario a nigh-impossibility Arga, is the fact that communist corps are usually "PVP-focused" corporations. This in itself means that they are not playing the game to make money, they are playing the game to PVP. While the communist system is infinitely more effective and easier to balance then a capitalist system, and could in all likelyhood flood the market with cheap T4 if certain communist corps emptied their monthly T4 quotas on the market, I dont see it happening.

When money is meaningless to you as a vital game factor, why bother earning it?

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Re: Communal Corps & Sell Orders

Syndic wrote:

When money is meaningless to you as a vital game factor, why bother earning it?

Because purchasing power exists in any market based system; what happens to a big gun with nothing to shoot?  It rusts and becoms dull and useless to it's user(s).

Right now there are a few very simple methods for individuls to make self sustaining bank; the Golden Triangle for example.  Once quick fix stuff like this is removed then people will have to plan their money making.  If player made terrain/outpost features are introduced one would hope they are damned expensive.

As to your point on the Communist system being more efficient; you're assuming that everyone stays happy with it and there will always be enough seats at the table.  The downside to a communist system within a larger market based system is that it'll draw constant negative attention and this doesn't always mean 'great, more PvP'.  I'll refer you back to the 'cold war vs. total war' comments made in an earlier post; "you end up with a dull Cold War(interrupted by occasional Blob-fights)  instead of a cool total war where people aren't too concerned that every foray into Beta will be met by a mass of guns from all over the game community.". 

In the instance of insular non-trading commune corps they may find that the 'guns' from all over the community end up pointing their way; again, this can just as easily lead to irrelevance as it can constant PvP.  Good quality PvPers will invariably seek a challange; if their chosen corp becomes a 'Sysphus rock' they will inevitably move on, 'greed is good' after all and in PvP the risk is the reward.  Remove the risk and what have you to offer?

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32 Reply by Mammoth (edited by Mammoth 2011-07-26 18:04:45)

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Re: Communal Corps & Sell Orders

You're actually paraphrasing Gordon Gekko to support your argument? Don't get me wrong, I'm a capitalist pigdog, but really? I'm not sure I understood that part of your comment either. You seem to be saying 'don't be communists it will make you too strong, everyone will team up on you and you'll get bored of winning'? Gharl, are you a communist in disguise?:/

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Re: Communal Corps & Sell Orders

I didn't mean to set off a panic, I was pointing out the two extremes; No-market to full-market.

The intent was that it's not neccesary, and probably not even desirable, for communistic corps to enter into the market as a corporation; simply because their internal model is totally at odds with the market.

As Syndic points out the all-for-one model is very effective for PVP corps, and it's a proven model.

More interesting will be how a capitalist model will work for PVP. We tried that model in CS while living on beta, but we didn't have the internal market tool at the time, so the logistics where a nightmare. The biggest hurdle was 'national defense' however, since it isn't a profit center for the members. So you end up having to have a draft for gate guards, or compensating them for thier 'time' on the gates; which is another logistical nightmare. Then for intrusions, the issue arose where the indy side was making profit off the outpost, but didn't have to spend any of their NIC on defense, so the PVP'er started to complain about having to farm NIC to keep them safe... anyway

tl;dr - Owning an outpost as a capitalist corp comes with all the issues that the US faces with paying for the military, which is a significant portion of our annual budget. There's no tools at this time to support paying for an army, so all the logistics fall to spread-sheets and an actual logistics command within.

It would be nice for the game mechanics to support more models, the Commune one just works because it's easier to manage.

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Re: Communal Corps & Sell Orders

Gharl Incognito wrote:

Because purchasing power exists in any market based system; what happens to a big gun with nothing to shoot?  It rusts and becoms dull and useless to it's user(s).

Right now there are a few very simple methods for individuls to make self sustaining bank; the Golden Triangle for example.  Once quick fix stuff like this is removed then people will have to plan their money making.  If player made terrain/outpost features are introduced one would hope they are damned expensive.

As to your point on the Communist system being more efficient; you're assuming that everyone stays happy with it and there will always be enough seats at the table.  The downside to a communist system within a larger market based system is that it'll draw constant negative attention and this doesn't always mean 'great, more PvP'.  I'll refer you back to the 'cold war vs. total war' comments made in an earlier post; "you end up with a dull Cold War(interrupted by occasional Blob-fights)  instead of a cool total war where people aren't too concerned that every foray into Beta will be met by a mass of guns from all over the game community.". 

In the instance of insular non-trading commune corps they may find that the 'guns' from all over the community end up pointing their way; again, this can just as easily lead to irrelevance as it can constant PvP.  Good quality PvPers will invariably seek a challange; if their chosen corp becomes a 'Sysphus rock' they will inevitably move on, 'greed is good' after all and in PvP the risk is the reward.  Remove the risk and what have you to offer?

Look youre mixing apples and oranges here.

Capitalist equation:

Miner -> Ore -> Corp -> NIC -> Miner -> NIC -> Corp -> Modules & Bots -> Miner
PVPer -> NIC -> Corp -> Modules & Bots -> PVPer

Do you realize the amount of time it takes to create a spreadsheet containing every module the corp produces, the constant daily adjustment of prices as ore & modules & bots prices change and fluctuate. You either form a comittee that will discuss for 3 hours if titan ore should be 0.35 or 0.36 NIC, or get 1 guy doing it and he'll burn out in a few months.

Nevermind the system is essentially flawed to the point where it becomes an archaic military quasi-feudal system where every soldier is responsible for his own gear.

Communist equation:

Miner -> Ore -> Corp -> Modules & Bots & Charges
Corp -> PVPer -> Modules & Bots & Ammo

The only "challenge" here is to accumulate a production critical point where it is equally distributed across the table. This is not achieveable by any means in the long run without having a secure Beta island to exploit.

The communist system essentially means a professional military, who fight with fleet-fits they're given.

I'm a big fan of "keep it simple, stupid". Big words look fancy on the forum speeches, but its quite a drastically different situation in-game.

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35 Reply by Gharl Incognito (edited by Gharl Incognito 2011-07-27 05:28:42)

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Re: Communal Corps & Sell Orders

Syndic wrote:

Look youre mixing apples and oranges here.

Capitalist equation:

Miner -> Ore -> Corp -> NIC -> Miner -> NIC -> Corp -> Modules & Bots -> Miner
PVPer -> NIC -> Corp -> Modules & Bots -> PVPer

Do you realize the amount of time it takes to create a spreadsheet containing every module the corp produces, the constant daily adjustment of prices as ore & modules & bots prices change and fluctuate. You either form a comittee that will discuss for 3 hours if titan ore should be 0.35 or 0.36 NIC, or get 1 guy doing it and he'll burn out in a few months.

Nevermind the system is essentially flawed to the point where it becomes an archaic military quasi-feudal system where every soldier is responsible for his own gear.

Communist equation:

Miner -> Ore -> Corp -> Modules & Bots & Charges
Corp -> PVPer -> Modules & Bots & Ammo

The only "challenge" here is to accumulate a production critical point where it is equally distributed across the table. This is not achieveable by any means in the long run without having a secure Beta island to exploit.

The communist system essentially means a professional military, who fight with fleet-fits they're given.

I'm a big fan of "keep it simple, stupid". Big words look fancy on the forum speeches, but its quite a drastically different situation in-game.

Yes, all true.  Still doesn't address the 'seats at the table issue'.  The question you asked was was about NIC and why a commune corp should bother with it.  As you've said a commune corp needs a beta island to control; without the requisit resource they will not be able to support their fleet. 

If a co-ordinated effort was made to strangle a commune corps resource gathering efforts they would be in trouble; sure they may have a warehouse but when that runs dry the 'seats at the table' start to run out.  This is even more pressing when it comes to alliance.  What do you offfer them once they have what they need to build in a market system?

It may be easier to control a commune corp but that's providing nothing goes wrong and yoy always have an active enemy.

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Re: Communal Corps & Sell Orders

Gharl Incognito wrote:

Yes, all true.  Still doesn't address the 'seats at the table issue'.  The question you asked was was about NIC and why a commune corp should bother with it.  As you've said a commune corp needs a beta island to control; without the requisit resource they will not be able to support their fleet. 

If a co-ordinated effort was made to strangle a commune corps resource gathering efforts they would be in trouble; sure they may have a warehouse but when that runs dry the 'seats at the table' start to run out.  This is even more pressing when it comes to alliance.  What do you offfer them once they have what they need to build in a market system?

It may be easier to control a commune corp but that's providing nothing goes wrong and yoy always have an active enemy.

Only thing that can "combat" a communist corp, is a stronger & bigger communist corp. Essentially it is a war of stockpiles, who can empty the enemies stockpile first wins.

The only use for NIC currently to communist corps is to quickly liquidate it into as much ore as you can grab for it, typically done a week before you time the war breaking out to make sure your production-spike of mechs comes out of the factories just as the war starts.

The primary difference between a communist corporation and a capitalist one in war-times is the military aspect. A capitalist corp simply cannot keep up pace even assuming both corps inflict roughly equal losses on each other.

Capitalist:
Private NIC will run out shortly after two-three major battles, and then its double the grind for the capitalist corp. They have to grind the ore to keep production up, farm the modules and farm the NIC. Naturally, since they're self-equipped capitalist pilots usually... have a very mixed match of fits. Every squad member fits individually for himself, not for the squad.

Communist:
A communist corp equips on a standardized level - meaning everyone is using the same fit on the same bot, which is easier and less brain-numbing to instantly refit if needed. Fits are designed and tweaked to perform optimally in squads, with NEXUS coverage, EW support, standard speeds, etc.

There is also the question of motivation; a capitalist pilot can easily pack his bags and quit the corp if things are going downhill. A communist pilot is more motivated to fight to the bitter end, because if the well dries up then it dries up for everyone. That is why communist corps activity virtually skyrockets the longer the war goes on, and word spreads there is action/threat to the corporation.

Additionally the question of efficiency. Communist corporations usually have dedicated communal factory accounts, refinery account, prototyper account shared by the rock-solid officer core. These accounts typically have max-extensions, so their efficiency is far greater then that of the individual producer who has to mine/produce on his own; as they are supported by the work of the entire corporation.

It is the equivalent of putting Barcelona playing against a sunday pub-team.

As for Beta islands, it is pretty obvious a communist corporation will quite simply grind out any capitalist opposition on the Beta island of their choosing. It is with good reason that the only time a capitalist corporation has managed to establish anything on Beta in Perpetuum's history, was when they already negotiated with everyone else not to attack them.

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Re: Communal Corps & Sell Orders

Syndic wrote:

Communist corporations usually have dedicated communal factory accounts, refinery account, prototyper account shared by the rock-solid officer core.

or in other words

CIR and many other corps break the EULA by sharing accounts and this gives them a big advantage.

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Re: Communal Corps & Sell Orders

So what happens when there's no one left to fight?  Or when no one wants to fight you?

How does the above methodology benifit the game and its community?  The ethos you've just outlined leads to a "do what I do, belive in what I belive, for your own good... or I'll kill you" scenario.

There's also the risk versus reward aspect.  In the above scenario anyone with a big enough head-start will invariably win.  There is no risk for the corp and it's players so the only rewards, one would deduce, are personal and lie outside of the game. 

By that rationale you have all of the members of x communal corp working dilligently to reach an arbitrary goal defined by the personal rewarding of their CEO or 'officer corps'; ergo the existance of the communal corp is an extension of an individual ego.

Now, players may do the victory dance for a while but what happens when they want to dance to their own tune? Do they eat Epitron pie or do they meet Commissar Seth?

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Re: Communal Corps & Sell Orders

Gharl Incognito wrote:

So what happens when there's no one left to fight?  Or when no one wants to fight you?

How does the above methodology benifit the game and its community?  The ethos you've just outlined leads to a "do what I do, belive in what I belive, for your own good... or I'll kill you" scenario.

There's also the risk versus reward aspect.  In the above scenario anyone with a big enough head-start will invariably win.  There is no risk for the corp and it's players so the only rewards, one would deduce, are personal and lie outside of the game. 

By that rationale you have all of the members of x communal corp working dilligently to reach an arbitrary goal defined by the personal rewarding of their CEO or 'officer corps'; ergo the existance of the communal corp is an extension of an individual ego.

Now, players may do the victory dance for a while but what happens when they want to dance to their own tune? Do they eat Epitron pie or do they meet Commissar Seth?

That is a bit off-topic, but I'll bite.

The methodology doesn't and isn't intended to benefit the community or the game. It is intended to benefit the corporation to achieve its maximum production and military potential, excellence if you will.

The corporation X that you describe and imply, is actually run along a different set of ethos. Everyone is equal at the table, period. The existance and performance is an extension of the collective's ego, as it is a collective achievement not an individual's achievement.

Players seem quite happy to do the victory dance for the last 14 years. I would hazard a guess that they'll be happily dancing the victory dance long after Perpetuum is gone.

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40 Reply by Gharl Incognito (edited by Gharl Incognito 2011-07-27 09:20:44)

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Re: Communal Corps & Sell Orders

So what happens when there's no one left to fight?  Or when no one wants to fight you?

EDIT: Nothing is implied.  I don't know which corps use a communal ethos; I've never asked.

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Re: Communal Corps & Sell Orders

Gharl Incognito wrote:

So what happens when there's no one left to fight?  Or when no one wants to fight you?

EDIT: Nothing is implied.  I don't know which corps use a communal ethos; I've never asked.

In case one, there is always another game. In case two, you either take the fight to them or just enjoy the other venues in-game.

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Re: Communal Corps & Sell Orders

As for Beta islands, it is pretty obvious a communist corporation will quite simply grind out any capitalist opposition on the Beta island of their choosing. It is with good reason that the only time a capitalist corporation has managed to establish anything on Beta in Perpetuum's history, was when they already negotiated with everyone else not to attack them.

Capitalist and Communist corps can both be powerful in thier own way.

Military structure within the capitalist corp doesn't have to be haphazard as you describe. Fits and bots are easy to prescribe for any corp. The piece that's missing is to make military service in the corp a privledge, which is hard to do when the population is so low. The corp pays the military to do thier job, they want to join because to see acation and because they get paid. The rest of the corp is earning NIC for themselves and the corp.

It feels like you've also underestimated the NIC capability of a capitalist corp. They are there to make NIC, so generating Billions of NIC will be highly likely. The other side of that coin is that NIC DOES have value in the game. And the actions that the capitalist corp are going to take to earn NIC will include selling epitron, kernels, and other items. They will also buy items and ore to produce for the market. The Flow of Epi and modules back and forth between alpha and beta will make both stronger. When the war breaks out, the capitalist corp can now buy the output of the other capitalist corps they have been helping to grow.

Also, making deals and negotiating with other corps is part of capitalism. It doesn't mean you have to NAP because skirmishes are part of the fun, but it's not likely that capitalist corps will go into all out war, unless it's for resources.

If by chance Cap. Corp X becomes the target of an extended campaign, unlike communist corps where the corp is everything, the capitalist corp can simply dissolve, and it's members take away a large personal fortune, and another corp forms up. That's not actually loosing, in fact it makes more ecomonic sense then sending waves of bots out to meet a force that isn't trying to accomplish anything but to make you dissolve.

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Re: Communal Corps & Sell Orders

Arga wrote:

If by chance Cap. Corp X becomes the target of an extended campaign, unlike communist corps where the corp is everything, the capitalist corp can simply dissolve, and it's members take away a large personal fortune, and another corp forms up. That's not actually loosing, in fact it makes more ecomonic sense then sending waves of bots out to meet a force that isn't trying to accomplish anything but to make you dissolve.

This.  That's why ego becomes the driving force behind a Commune Corp.

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Re: Communal Corps & Sell Orders

Gharl Incognito wrote:
Arga wrote:

If by chance Cap. Corp X becomes the target of an extended campaign, unlike communist corps where the corp is everything, the capitalist corp can simply dissolve, and it's members take away a large personal fortune, and another corp forms up. That's not actually loosing, in fact it makes more ecomonic sense then sending waves of bots out to meet a force that isn't trying to accomplish anything but to make you dissolve.

This.  That's why ego becomes the driving force behind a Commune Corp.



Hmm, gee whiz, I wonder who in this game in charge of a large communist corp has an ego bigger than all of Nian? Hmm, nah, couldn't happen!! lol