Topic: For those curious about why you're being swarmed by bitter Eve vets

There's a lot of Perp players who keep asking for the reasons behind the sudden influx, what has all of us so angry, etc.

Someone recently posted this video, that highlights all the juicey bits and should explain it pretty clearly (it's a bit fast in places, so you may want you mouse over the pause button):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdJPFLfrLvs

The CSM meeting mentioned near the end is due to start today.

And yes... I know, "damnit, another Eve thread, lets get back to Perp!" But, I'm partially hoping this will be an easy place for people to link to, instead of having to rehash it in the chats every time someone asks, which pretty much hijacks the chat while we bittervets rant about the betrayal.

On the Perp related side, this may also help others understand why we're both surprised at, and immensely happy that the Devs here have a firm commitment to never have pay to win and you know... actually communicate with the players.

P.S. If this thread is too worrying on the off-Perp/drama level, I won't be offended by it being blasted.

Re: For those curious about why you're being swarmed by bitter Eve vets

Thanks as a former eve player who's been in Perp for the better part 7 months I was really lost to what CCP had done. Other than offering monocles at prices higher than i pay for my RL contacts.

FFS please keep your IMBA posts in the proper forum

Re: For those curious about why you're being swarmed by bitter Eve vets

Yeah, the video is a decent summary, but it fails to capture the rage caused by years work ruined by a business decision in iceland. i hope the hungarians have their heads on straighter.

/witty sig

Re: For those curious about why you're being swarmed by bitter Eve vets

Thanks for the summary.

Re: For those curious about why you're being swarmed by bitter Eve vets

I was watching gamebreaker.tv last night, and they also mentioned that players were upset that everything in the MT store was over-priced. I guess everything was $10 and up, and that if they had some .99 cent items so everyone could participate that at least the monocle issue wouldn't have been so bad; of course the lack of denial about ships in the MT store kept that fueled.

Then again, I read an article last year as I was researching Eve, about some rich russian that bought 100's of plex and used the ISK to build an empire. Maybe an Eve vet can explain it to me, but what exactly is the difference to in game balance, if you buy a capital ship directly from Eve for $1000 or sell plex for ISK and buy one in game? I do see how it 'cuts' the player out of the loop, and reduces the ability to convert ISK to game time and capital ships to ISK, but it doesn't acutally effect game balance any differently. Player X can afford to use RMT to buy power in game, CCP is just now taking that money in directly.

I'm not saying this is right, just asking an Eve vet how getting attacked by a PLEX bought Capital ship is different then being attacked by a MT Capital ship?

Re: For those curious about why you're being swarmed by bitter Eve vets

Arga wrote:

I was watching gamebreaker.tv last night, and they also mentioned that players were upset that everything in the MT store was over-priced. I guess everything was $10 and up, and that if they had some .99 cent items so everyone could participate that at least the monocle issue wouldn't have been so bad; of course the lack of denial about ships in the MT store kept that fueled.

Then again, I read an article last year as I was researching Eve, about some rich russian that bought 100's of plex and used the ISK to build an empire. Maybe an Eve vet can explain it to me, but what exactly is the difference to in game balance, if you buy a capital ship directly from Eve for $1000 or sell plex for ISK and buy one in game? I do see how it 'cuts' the player out of the loop, and reduces the ability to convert ISK to game time and capital ships to ISK, but it doesn't acutally effect game balance any differently. Player X can afford to use RMT to buy power in game, CCP is just now taking that money in directly.

I'm not saying this is right, just asking an Eve vet how getting attacked by a PLEX bought Capital ship is different then being attacked by a MT Capital ship?

Nearly everything in eve is Player created, adding such a thing would destroy the Industry.

In order to make the MT-Store atractive theyd prolly add a avantage to the ships bought there, some call that a Pay-to-Win system.

Re: For those curious about why you're being swarmed by bitter Eve vets

Destroying the industry part I can understand, although I suspect it would more tie to your second line there, in that the Ship they offered in the MT wouldn't be available via in game production.

Building off that, if the MT-Capital ship had the same stats as a in-game-Capital, but just looked different, that wouldn't be a pay-2-win, as you don't get any game advantage.

So, the issue fully comes down to, Currently the player base benefits from the Plex system, if they implement an MT (without pay2win) then Eve directly gets all the income plus the previous player base will have less Plex on the market resulting in more of those players needing to purchase subscriptions directly again.

A double win for CCP, they get more cash from the rich people and more from the player base that gets pushed out of the plex market by higher pricing.

Yep, I can see that causing bitterness. Thanks Mathias.

8 (edited by Batolemaeus 2011-07-01 08:36:11)

Re: For those curious about why you're being swarmed by bitter Eve vets

I don't think you get how the plex system works. It's just a token, and every plex represents money that already went to CCP. Essentially, the value of a plex exists only as a token representing time, but the plex market itself can not spawn resources. It is also governed by rules of supply and demand, which a CCP controlled rmt store wouldn't.

The problem with MT is and has always been that, as CCP explicitly stated, it tries to sell convenience. So to optimize profits, game design is encouraged to be deliberately inconvenient. GW, for example, is selling extra inventory space that was free previously. CCP will be selling space for stored fittings that was practically infinite before but has been limited to 50 now. (As an example of what could happen. The possibilities for making people pay for ccp's terrible design are endless)

Essentially, MT in mmos is always, without exception, an excuse to cut content from the existing game and sell it extra. (Literally. I can't think of an exception. No, not even perpetuum.)

The MT capital you mention would be pay2win. The method of replacing an army of those ships wouldn't involve the industry of eve, wouldn't require an alliance to make an investment, protect and supply their industry and make them immune to disruption during a war. Just spend a few thousand bucks and a new fleet magically appears out of nowhere, breaking the entire game.


That's not to say you couldn't already do it. Most of 0.0 space is controlled by rmt alliances which exist solely to extract and sell ingame items and money, which ccp has been turning a blind eye on. You can just shell out 700 bucks and get a mothership plus pilot, but at least with those deals it's not ccp dropping the pretense of a pvp mmo about using your skills and wits.

Re: For those curious about why you're being swarmed by bitter Eve vets

When a PLEX is traded, two players benefit. One gets ISK, the other doesn't have to pay for his game time. CCP gets the same amount that it would get if both players paid for a subscription (but may benefit indirectly due to better player retention). When you buy an item from CCP then one player gets an item and CCP gets money.

While I think that's a fairly significant difference, it's not the single big issue that caused the forum rage. There's a lot of accumulated rage from other things CCP have done, many broken promises (including "no microtransactions" just about a year ago, or player-made clothing from earlier Incarna announcements), many years old unfixed bugs, completely broken balance in some areas of the game, the certainty that most of the money you pay them doesn't actually get those bugs fixed in EVE but helps finance two completely different games (they actually told us that, which caused a bit of rage back then), and in fact now we have an "expansion" that lets players walk around in one closet in return for drastically higher system reqs and that introduced gamebreaking bugs like attribute bonuses from skills not being applied to ships...

I think reducing the outrage to microtransactions is missing the point, if players were mostly content with EVE and with CCP's behaviour then they'd gladly buy virtual clothes to support their favourite game. They just chose to introduce microtransactions at a point in time where they've literally already screwed up everything else they possibly could have screwed up and did so in the most arrogant way possible.

Re: For those curious about why you're being swarmed by bitter Eve vets

Another synopsis of what is occurring at CCP and in EVE. tongue

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4YHvtEJgBc

Re: For those curious about why you're being swarmed by bitter Eve vets

Thanks guys for posting the links... now I'm getting a clear idea of the sheer rage involved. :-)

Re: For those curious about why you're being swarmed by bitter Eve vets

So after years of pretending to be for the players, Eve has turned into a profit or die business. That's sad, for a long time it was mentioned as the no2 if not 1 game online, and they're killing themselves by showing their greed. Sad to say, Eve might just drop to a 'used to be' game if they don't straighten up.:yarr: