51 Reply by Ioci (edited by Ioci 2014-04-17 18:15:06)

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Re: Mining balancing

This isn't about production capacity or mining capacity though. I can build robots on Alpha either way. I just don't need to buy everything from my 'Competition' right now.

The system right now means I don't need to make my enemy powerful to make myself powerful. I sell Plasma to seeds at a loss, for a reason. This is a PvP game and the only people who buy Plasma are people on Beta who can make a profit from it.

Why is it Gamma and Beta players sell Noralgis and Epri?
They want NIC to purchase stuff they CBA to mine themselves or loot themselves. From? Alpha players because those neutral Alpha players aren't welcome on Beta and Gamma. If I truly wanted to control Perp, I wouldn't sell Epri or Noralgis, at any price. You want it? Come get it or run Assaults and small squads of Mech made from lotted Epri.

The system right now leaves options and possibilities for war. If you fear the noob, stop trying to control him and get ready to fight him.

- I should also point out, I have been mining a stermonit spawn on an Alpha 1 and while it has maybe 30 mill Sterm in it, I haven't seen another person near it. I log in to what I left the day before.

A true verdict can't be reached on the state of mining until the ore starts getting used. That will be a while becasue any new people from Steam are going to need to be able to research.

Veteran corps with full research trees should be selling that to recruit. Let new people mine on Alpha but keep Ore off the market by giving them a way to manufacture it. Ore is a small slice of the Nia, industrial pie.

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Re: Mining balancing

Tux wrote:

we need to attract players to play the game .. how does limiting minerals accomplish this?

Give players easy mining with no challenges and they leave eventually, is not always about giving player want they want all the time.

Right now is just time spent mining thats the only cap. I am not saying deprive alpha from resources just make it smaller fields but with more of them, that will make vets with 5 rivelers mk2 not bother mining there as they have to move often but on beta/gamma larger fields will make them move less often, also this will hurt afk miners and multiple account vets more.


A cool down to spawning new fields will make an 'island cap' for x number of players if that cap is reached finding ores may be harder but you just need to move to another island to find more.

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53 Reply by Tux

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Re: Mining balancing

Really ?? So you want to add

more travel .. more scanning down fields ... more logistics for hauling minerals

the system we have now is not perfect by far but the solution is not to make it more of a PITA !

Celebro wrote:
Tux wrote:

we need to attract players to play the game .. how does limiting minerals accomplish this?

Give players easy mining with no challenges and they leave eventually, is not always about giving player want they want all the time.

Right now is just time spent mining thats the only cap. I am not saying deprive alpha from resources just make it smaller fields but with more of them, that will make vets with 5 rivelers mk2 not bother mining there as they have to move often but on beta/gamma larger fields will make them move less often, also this will hurt afk miners and multiple account vets more.


A cool down to spawning new fields will make an 'island cap' for x number of players if that cap is reached finding ores may be harder but you just need to move to another island to find more.

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Re: Mining balancing

Tux, I did mentioned it in my previous post but this would need to come with a mining buff.

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Re: Mining balancing

your all ***.

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56 Reply by Gremrod (edited by Gremrod 2014-04-17 19:58:14)

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Re: Mining balancing

Sorry got to throw something in here before I forget. So if I jump tracks here for a bit sorry.

Note:
=======================================
Make mining charges extension based. (I have no idea on extension or levels)

Make the mining modules have the ability to mine any ore

I would like to see mining ammo mean something to me more then just..

"Oh I need N mining charge to mine N ore.".

Then make the use of mining charges increase amount mined. Then also create "Advanced mining charges" that have a better amount increase then the regular charges.

Care bears want goals and victories just like pvpers. Even small goals like these can keep people around a bit longer.

It depends on the amount of time it takes to get to these goals. Make it to easier they get bored. Make it to hard they get mad.
======================================

I am not sure the OP has a solution for the beta mining only good for epi issue.

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57 Reply by Celebro (edited by Celebro 2014-04-17 22:41:36)

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Re: Mining balancing

Another option for a reason to mine other resources aside from Epri, is to only spawn epriton on beta until you mined x amount of other resources either titan/hdt/liquizit + racial ore, will spawn 1 epriton field, then you can scan and mine it. Surely Epriton mining should be faster than it is now. This would be island dependent, not what a player has mined. What do you think?

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Re: Mining balancing

Celebro wrote:

Another option for a reason to mine other resources aside from Epri, is to only spawn epriton on beta until you mined x amount of other resources either titan/hdt/liquizit + racial ore, will spawn 1 epriton field, then you can scan and mine it. Surely Epriton mining should be faster than it is now. This would be island dependent, not what a player has mined. What do you think?


It becomes a problem when population is low. They need to stay away from this type of mechanic.

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Re: Mining balancing

Up to the Devs, we're bathing in a waterfall of Alpha resources and we think its too easy and unchallenging to get infinite resources like this.

But if you leave it like this we're definitely going to be taking every advantage of it for as long as it's in-game, don't say we didn't say anything. smile

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60 Reply by Burial (edited by Burial 2014-04-18 00:22:42)

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Re: Mining balancing

Syndic wrote:

Up to the Devs, we're bathing in a waterfall of Alpha resources and we think its too easy and unchallenging to get infinite resources like this.

But if you leave it like this we're definitely going to be taking every advantage of it for as long as it's in-game, don't say we didn't say anything. smile

Acquiring minerals is already capped by the amount of work someone is willing to put into it. You do realize how unscalable the depleting fields are right?

61 Reply by Malcorian Vandsteidt (edited by Malcorian Vandsteidt 2014-04-19 17:07:30)

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Re: Mining balancing

So basically you want to Nurf industry on Alphas (where you cant gank people mining) and Increase production and mining yields on Betas by 400%? Forcing players who want to do industry (I mean really isn't there few enough dedicated industrialist anyway?) onto the the betas so you have more easy kills?

I mean really... Didn't see that one coming.

This game is not like Eve, you don't have 5 million Carebears mining away, Do to how industry works in Peretuum, it takes MONTHS to get the ability to even manufacture "decent" items and weapons. There are VERY few actual industrialists in Perpetuum, Building your Robots and weapons.

What your proposing is ludicrous. The only sane thing would be to increase the mineral amounts on Alphas. You need to think about the economy here. Not about your killboard.

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Re: Mining balancing

Naw, if anything use alpha islands are a start point then just make the other islands get better from there/ let the stations out there have better facilities/infrastructure.

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Re: Mining balancing

where can I go harvesting. smile

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Re: Mining balancing

Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:

So basically you want to Nurf industry on Alphas (where you cant gank people mining) and Increase production and mining yields on Betas by 400%? Forcing players who want to do industry (I mean really isn't there few enough dedicated industrialist anyway?) onto the the betas so you have more easy kills?

I mean really... Didn't see that one coming.

This game is not like Eve, you don't have 5 million Carebears mining away, Do to how industry works in Peretuum, it takes MONTHS to get the ability to even manufacture "decent" items and weapons. There are VERY few actual industrialists in Perpetuum, Building your Robots and weapons.

What your proposing is ludicrous. The only sane thing would be to increase the mineral amounts on Alphas. You need to think about the economy here. Not about your killboard.

-500

I'm sorry but as an endgame industrialist I know that not to be true. I'm trying to make it harder and riskier for corps like mine to produce while easier for new people and small corps.

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65 Reply by Aye Pod (edited by Aye Pod 2014-04-20 04:48:42)

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Re: Mining balancing

So here are the problems I see with this new risk less mining on Alpha 2's

All corps will be doing production from these islands after gamma is wiped (at least for a long while)

Not only will the miners/industrialists be doing mining on these islands but pvprs (some) will also have an afk toon they can park and gather loads of mins (remember the bowl on tellesis)

Now that most if not all mins (except the obvious ones) will be gathered on the same islands where they will be used that takes away any slowdown due to logistics.

So what right?

Prices of alpha mins will drop. This is good for people/corps who just want to buy mins but not so much for the player who wants to make some nic from mining. For the alpha only corps good luck getting good trade value towards non alpha mins. One hours haul of epi or colox will trade for 2 to 3 hours worth the alpha mins. Prices of everything will drop also cause of the discounted mineral costs (good for noobs) but it wont matter much anyways cause most corps will be producing their own items/bots. Supply>Demand

If we cant increase the risk of getting minerals on these islands then we need to increase the time it takes to get them.

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Re: Mining balancing

Most of the large corps will mine only for internal purposes, - Why i will mine for market when my corp can build anything for me from my resources ?
So market wouldn't suffer so much,

On other side new players will be sad sad looking at 4-6 Rivellers mk2 that will deplete any resource field on alpha2 within few hours.

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Re: Mining balancing

Bring back static spawns of alpha minerals on beta

Nuff said.

FFS please keep your IMBA posts in the proper forum
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Re: Mining balancing

Stating the obvious again (squatted and delivered more pearls):

There should be 2 different models/formulas.

1) Alpha 1 & 2: More random mineral fields but smaller amounts to entertain new players, but dissuade veterans. The total amounts available should be driven by consumption. Balance by amounts available on the island's market (per island), which prevents over or under supply.

2) Beta & Gamma: Larger static fields that support corporate mining ops and defense (and therefore PvP). Also balance amounts by consumption, but across island groups. If yours is mined out, you will have to go next door for it.

Also, there should be rare random "trace" spawns of all high end minerals on all alpha island. This will stimulate industry/manufacturing on the alpha islands. It should be enough for the diligent miner to make a few million quickly, but if he wants more he will have to join a Beta Corp.

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Re: Mining balancing

Squint wrote:

Stating the obvious again (squatted and delivered more pearls):

There should be 2 different models/formulas.

1) Alpha 1 & 2: More random mineral fields but smaller amounts to entertain new players, but dissuade veterans. The total amounts available should be driven by consumption. Balance by amounts available on the island's market (per island), which prevents over or under supply.

2) Beta & Gamma: Larger static fields that support corporate mining ops and defense (and therefore PvP). Also balance amounts by consumption, but across island groups. If yours is mined out, you will have to go next door for it.

Also, there should be rare random "trace" spawns of all high end minerals on all alpha island. This will stimulate industry/manufacturing on the alpha islands. It should be enough for the diligent miner to make a few million quickly, but if he wants more he will have to join a Beta Corp.

There already are for Epri, not so much for Noralgis and the system in place is a far better system than just putting an Epri field on the map. Something a directional scanner will pick up right away. I got 6 x dyspro pl10 and a dyspro Pl40 while mining on Alpha 1 yesterday.

If you have recycling to 10 and recycle that at a 50 facility, it's .7 with no standings. The stat will say 60% but if you look at waste and mineral it's actually giving you 70% but it works out that I got 56K Epri from mining Titan Ore.

I've mined all three plants, I've never gotten a Noralgis rare. Granted, I've never gathered the way I mine. The option just isn't there. I don't look at it as a make a few million opportunity though. I see it from a, how much Alpha mining will I need to dedicate to in order to make a pure Alpha MK2 Seth? Right now I couldn't do it, I don't have access to the Noralgis but the system is there.

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Re: Mining balancing

I am aware of the rare compounds during mining. I am saying it is not enough. I am suggesting that rare random fields of the high end ores appear, although they should be tiny. No more than 20U in a field. The random compounds during mining should also be re-balanced to include all the new ores. There should also be a chance of finding a "wild" noralgi plant.

The idea is to enable newer players to obtain some advanced components to assist minor industry, without impacting advanced players or larger corporations too much. If you want to mass build you will need to join a Beta/Gamma corp - if the player wants large red fields of epri then he will have to PvP for it.

A solo player, or a very small Alpha corp, should be able to build a Mark 2 (or a few T4 module) with some effort. They should not be able to mass produce those either.

In the end you want to feed people's greed just enough to convince them to go fight for a spot on Beta/Gamma.

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Re: Mining balancing

I mined yesterday with One Riveler mk2 on Alpha 100 Million HDT in less than 8 hours.  I have sub par skills on that account.  And 50 million Titan yesterday.  Is that balanced in One riveler mk2?  In two weeks over a Billion Ore just for one player?

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Re: Mining balancing

While I don't particularly like infinite spawns if you left the current mechanics in place and removed them the same end game players would just strip mine alpha and the new guys would have nothing.

That is why, imperfect as it may be, more smaller spawns would be better. It would decrease efficiency for the ten riveler mk2 gangs hopefully enough to push them in to beta more often - it's never going to be always. It would not effect the lone guy doing a bit of starter mining.

New people would benefit from this because of -

Reduced travel time as more spawns means a greater chance of a closer spawn

Increased alpha difficulty for big gangs means less mineral availability making mining more profitable for single players

Difficulty mining abc minerals for bigger corps makes them more likely to buy them while selling goods or high end minerals to fund this

Perhaps beta spawns should be made static again and not infinite as before (particularly epi) - this would stimulate PvP and beta ownership

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Re: Mining balancing

Jita wrote:

While I don't particularly like infinite spawns if you left the current mechanics in place and removed them the same end game players would just strip mine alpha and the new guys would have nothing.

That is why, imperfect as it may be, more smaller spawns would be better. It would decrease efficiency for the ten riveler mk2 gangs hopefully enough to push them in to beta more often - it's never going to be always. It would not effect the lone guy doing a bit of starter mining.

New people would benefit from this because of -

Reduced travel time as more spawns means a greater chance of a closer spawn

Increased alpha difficulty for big gangs means less mineral availability making mining more profitable for single players

Difficulty mining abc minerals for bigger corps makes them more likely to buy them while selling goods or high end minerals to fund this

Perhaps beta spawns should be made static again and not infinite as before (particularly epi) - this would stimulate PvP and beta ownership

This is a very good idea.

Would it even be possible code-wise to have two separate rulesets for alpha/beta though?

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Re: Mining balancing

Aye Pod wrote:

So here are the problems I see with this new risk less mining on Alpha 2's

All corps will be doing production from these islands after gamma is wiped (at least for a long while)

Not only will the miners/industrialists be doing mining on these islands but pvprs (some) will also have an afk toon they can park and gather loads of mins (remember the bowl on tellesis)

Now that most if not all mins (except the obvious ones) will be gathered on the same islands where they will be used that takes away any slowdown due to logistics.

So what right?

Prices of alpha mins will drop. This is good for people/corps who just want to buy mins but not so much for the player who wants to make some nic from mining. For the alpha only corps good luck getting good trade value towards non alpha mins. One hours haul of epi or colox will trade for 2 to 3 hours worth the alpha mins. Prices of everything will drop also cause of the discounted mineral costs (good for noobs) but it wont matter much anyways cause most corps will be producing their own items/bots. Supply>Demand

If we cant increase the risk of getting minerals on these islands then we need to increase the time it takes to get them.

You don't need to worry about this at the crux.
Alpha2 have one base, Alpha1 have 4. For smaller industrial Mech and even dual boxed Termis/ Sequer it is still more practical to mine Alpha1.

I found Titan spawns on New Virginia and Hersh after the patch and ended up mining the New Virginia spawn. The Hersh one was just too far out for me as a solo miner. A large corp with 2 or 3 Scareb haulers working with the miners would have been able to make use of the Hersh field I found. Before the orange passive though, that wouldn't even be a consideration. Someone would have lost a Scareb trying to shuttle Ore to Hersh terminal.

The real threat at this stage is the stability issue the server is seeing. If you are forever crashing, it's only a matter of time before someone loses a field can full of Ore.

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Re: Mining balancing

Syndic wrote:
Jita wrote:

While I don't particularly like infinite spawns if you left the current mechanics in place and removed them the same end game players would just strip mine alpha and the new guys would have nothing.

That is why, imperfect as it may be, more smaller spawns would be better. It would decrease efficiency for the ten riveler mk2 gangs hopefully enough to push them in to beta more often - it's never going to be always. It would not effect the lone guy doing a bit of starter mining.

New people would benefit from this because of -

Reduced travel time as more spawns means a greater chance of a closer spawn

Increased alpha difficulty for big gangs means less mineral availability making mining more profitable for single players

Difficulty mining abc minerals for bigger corps makes them more likely to buy them while selling goods or high end minerals to fund this

Perhaps beta spawns should be made static again and not infinite as before (particularly epi) - this would stimulate PvP and beta ownership

This is a very good idea.

Would it even be possible code-wise to have two separate rulesets for alpha/beta though?

Yes is the best compromise, I did post something similar on post #54. Essentially making it inconvenient for afk miners and large groups to mine on alpha. Smaller but more abundant fields on alpha may be all that is needed.

RIP PERPETUUM