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Topic: NIC costs of production

i wanted to figure out the basic nic costs for produced stuff because there is no nic requirement in the component list of the item information. and these informations would be nice to have for calculating stuff.

so i thought the efficiency would apply to NIC in the same way as it does to resources. if they do then the same formula could be used:

Efficiency in used material (%):
Efficiency=(1+(1/((POINTS)/50+2)))*100

after that we use the "rule of three" to see what the basic (100%) is.
X(100%)=NIC*100/EFF


if your ct degenerates it still should give you the same result for the basic costs, which it does not.
here a few samples: http://i.imgur.com/jHURyOA.png

the question is if there are a few "rounding issues" within the game formula, or do i have some major flaw in my calculations, or does nic gets calculated in a total different way?

also i would have expected that the basic cost would be a more "normal" number. like 23.000,00 NIC.

so where is the mistake ???

  • YBA
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Re: NIC costs of production

You don't mention Time in your post Zortarg. The NIC cost is calculated per second of facility time needed to complete a job whether that facility be a prototyper, factory or RE.

I believe each manufacturable item in the game has a base cost per second which is decreased according to total "industry" points from extensions, facility and relations.

I've never bothered to work out what these base time costs are, however. If I knew what the base time costs were I could work out the formula pretty quickly.

3 Reply by Zortarg Calltar (edited by Zortarg Calltar 2013-07-09 09:43:21)

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Re: NIC costs of production

ok i have to admit. it never came to my mind that the nic costs might be time based.

and it would make sense to give the time efficiency some more meaning besides the faster production.

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Re: NIC costs of production

Having read my post back, it is a bit confusing. Let me clarify:

A second of facility time has a cost in NIC - this is fixed.
The number of seconds required to complete a job depends on extensions, facility and relation.
Each item has a multiplier for the number of seconds required.

Working out the multipliers for each item is quite easy by just swapping CTs in and out (or proto or RE jobs) and looking at the ratios in NIC.

Sadly, I've got nothing specific for you.

5 Reply by Zortarg Calltar (edited by Zortarg Calltar 2013-07-09 10:06:08)

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Re: NIC costs of production

just using time and production costs.

NIC(per second)=NIC(production)/Productiontime(seconds)

tested a few items. seams to be exactly 3,00 NIC per second of factory usage. havent tested protyping and the others yet.

so calculating nic for production would be to figure the basic time for each item...
some more work to to ^^

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Re: NIC costs of production

prototyping and reverse engineering are the same...

3,00 NIC per second of facility usage per line

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Re: NIC costs of production

From my industry tool:

$i = 2;	
$item = array(
	'te' => 55,
	'time' => 497
);
$multiplierTE = 1 + ($i / ((($item['te'] + $points['factory']['te']) / 50) + 2));
$item['basetime'] = round(($item['time'] / $multiplierTE), 0);

I use this to figure out the 'base' time it takes to manufacture an item. It's just a lot of work to figure out this out for all items.

Here's the full source of the calculations the industry tool does:

http://pastebin.com/BYwD2vAD

Perpetuum Killboard
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Re: NIC costs of production

Doek , you forgot to add CT degradation when you calculate materials cost with several cycles.

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Re: NIC costs of production

Heliaso wrote:

Doek , you forgot to add CT degradation when you calculate materials cost with several cycles.

At line 428:

$ME = $thisOrderBaseME;
$TE = $thisOrderBaseTE;
$multiplierME = 1 + (1 / (($ME / 50) + 2));
$multiplierTE = 1 + (2 / (($TE / 50) + 2));
                       
$thisCycleME = $thisOrderBaseME - ($c * $order['degredation']); // CT degradation per cycle, $c starts at zero to delay degradation for 1 cycle
$thisCycleTE = $thisOrderBaseTE - ($c * $order['degredation']);

if ($thisCycleME < 0) $thisCycleME = 0;
if ($thisCycleTE < 0) $thisCycleTE = 0;

$thisMultiplierME = 1 + (1 / (($thisCycleME / 50) + 2));
$thisMultiplierTE = 1 + (2 / (($thisCycleTE / 50) + 2));

As far as I remember, the factory dialog in the client doesn't actually account for degradation, so this tool seems to be more accurate as far as commodity counts.

Perpetuum Killboard
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Re: NIC costs of production

ah yes , you 're right about the factory dialog , it doesn't actually show us rights values.

it's a little stupid not to give correct values for multiples cycles in the factory client sad

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Re: NIC costs of production

Heliaso wrote:

ah yes , you 're right about the factory dialog , it doesn't actually show us rights values.

it's a little stupid not to give correct values for multiples cycles in the factory client sad

It's not stupid it's Hungarian math tongue

RIP PERPETUUM
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Re: NIC costs of production

It's not hungarian  maths , it's just an arithmetic serie.

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Re: NIC costs of production

ok so new all we need is the time of a production, or better for calculating we need the basic time.

i tryed (again) to put that to good use and found that its not working the way i thought.

http://i.imgur.com/q5pkGAp.png

as you can see in the image i put multible cts of the same item but with different points into the sheet. i used the same formula for time efficiency as for material efficiency.
with the same calculation method you should get the same basic time for each ct.

strangly enough its not working. even more you can see that th ebetter the ct and with that the efficiency the lower the basic time.
after multible times of checking my formulas and no sighn of a major mistake, i can only assume that the formula for the time efficiency is a different one then for material efficiency.

my formula for time efficiency:
=(1+(1/(("POINTS-FACILITY"+"POINTS-CT")/50+2)))*100

POINTS-FACILITY = total time efficiency points. incl. standing, extentions, facility
POINTS-CT = of cource time efficiency points of the ct

after that the usualy rule of three to get to the 100%. that normaly should be the same for all.. as it just isnt.. .^^
i would have expected minor differences because of rounding issues but 41sec difference at 108p difference semas more then a rounding issue to me.

14 Reply by Goffer (edited by Goffer 2013-07-10 10:54:25)

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Re: NIC costs of production

Before Indu 2.0 it was clearly said, that facility level has no impact on material needed, only on time needed.
I can only assume that this is somehow still valid, although I would have assumed, that this is inlcuded in the displayed ratio.
Next point is you used CT efficiency, but there are always two efficiencies when you inspect your factory. One for Material usage, one for time. Usually they don't differ, but still can differ.

15 Reply by Zortarg Calltar (edited by Zortarg Calltar 2013-07-10 11:20:23)

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Re: NIC costs of production

Goffer wrote:

Before Indu 2.0 it was clearly said, that facility level has no impact on material needed, only on time needed.
I can only assume that this is somehow still valid, although I would have assumed, that this is inlcuded in the displayed ratio.
Next point is you used CT efficiency, but there are always two efficiencies when you inspect your factory. One for Material usage, one for time. Usually they don't differ, but still can differ.

of couce i always used time efficiency point and not material.

time efficiency is exact the points. calculated efficiency to a lot digits exact. only rounding issue might be the production time. that might be rounded to one second. still this should not result in a difference of more then 40 seconds. something is wrong...

when i look at my factory it says
material ratio: 487
time ratio: 458

that comes from:
facility: 375 (max)
relation: 50 (max)
extentions (material): 62
extentions (time):33

so the facility affects material and time ratio. thats now and after industry 2.0. and thats all that matters.

nic costs are always 3,00NIC per second for all over time processing facilities.

so every item must have a basic time which will be reduced with the time efficiency.

but the way i tryed to calculate it seams to be wrong. if 100% is different for each production with different time efficiency numbers then something must be wrong in the calculation.

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Re: NIC costs of production

Zortarg Calltar wrote:

ok so new all we need is the time of a production, or better for calculating we need the basic time.

i tryed (again) to put that to good use and found that its not working the way i thought.

Stop trying to reinvent the wheel. I know source code can look a bit daunting but it's all in there.

item base manufacturing time = item displayed manufacturing time / (1 + (2 / ((CT time efficiency points + facility time efficiency points) / 50) + 2))

Perpetuum Killboard

17 Reply by Zortarg Calltar (edited by Zortarg Calltar 2013-07-10 11:46:52)

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Re: NIC costs of production

ok forget it found the error

if a number that should be 2 is 1 in a formula then ... ...

so the foruma for material and time efficiency is different ^^

Material=1+(1/("Material-Points"+2))
Time=1+(2/("Time-Points"+2))

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Re: NIC costs of production

Also note that base times are the same for every tier of an item.

source: http://pastebin.com/yTEBbqtt
result: http://pastebin.com/i9CAbanN

Perpetuum Killboard
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Re: NIC costs of production

just tell me next time that my formula is wrong ^^

no clue when this got messed up. but has to be quite some time ago