Topic: Recycling of Commodities

this is one thing that is not possible atm and i personaly think it is a thing that should be possible.

well logic sais to me that recycling of materials is possible even it might be in reality a bit different then the recycling that we have ingame.

recycling ingame atm only is converting items to commodities.
in reality its a "bit" more complicated process but in general we can use recycling metals to create higher grade alloys.

so we should have a similar system in this game as well for various reasons.

i personal see one easy and one complicated way to do so.

easy way:
make commodities recycable. you have a loss but if you have too much from one type you can get beck resources and make out of it what you need.
easy to do even if its not totaly logical to get "ore" or "plants" out of  commodities. normaly this form gets lost in the refining process and you get rid of the useless parts in the ore.

hard way:
new skill for commodity recreation, or whatever you wanna call it.
basicly you will have to toss your commodities you want to rebuild into one pot and you can build new ones out of it. of cource of your choice. when you need other resources you can add these to the process.
new skill new facility way more work.

Re: Recycling of Commodities

+1

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Re: Recycling of Commodities

There are some basic issues with balancing recycling however, the way other games get around this issue is to have the recycled material be a new item.

For instance, when you recycle a T1 indy tuner, you get a unit of 'Scrap'.

The scrap is then used to reduce the material costs of production, or combined with other raw materials to get slightly more commodities (that's an OR situation, scape shouldn't be used in both ways).

Devs could go all crazy and try to determine a complex scrap recovery scheme, or simply:

T1 = 1 scrap
T2 = 2 scrap
T3 = 4 scrap
T4 = 8 scrap

And balance the 'effect' of scrap at the production end;

1 scrap = 1% eff
or
1 scrap = 1 more commoditity unit

and adjust the units or % to make recycling worth while but not fantastic.

This also has the effect of continuing to make gathering a requirement, since recycling doesn't give you any usefull material, it only 'boosts' the effect of existing mats.

Recycling skill would then apply to the 'boost' amount, and not the how much scrap you get from items.

The skill points would have to be returned again for recycle, but combat guys wouldn't have to worry about spending points on it, as it would fall under production, as it should.

Re: Recycling of Commodities

argas idea sounds better

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Re: Recycling of Commodities

Arga wrote:

There are some basic issues with balancing recycling however, the way other games get around this issue is to have the recycled material be a new item.

For instance, when you recycle a T1 indy tuner, you get a unit of 'Scrap'.

The scrap is then used to reduce the material costs of production, or combined with other raw materials to get slightly more commodities (that's an OR situation, scape shouldn't be used in both ways).

Devs could go all crazy and try to determine a complex scrap recovery scheme, or simply:

T1 = 1 scrap
T2 = 2 scrap
T3 = 4 scrap
T4 = 8 scrap

And balance the 'effect' of scrap at the production end;

1 scrap = 1% eff
or
1 scrap = 1 more commoditity unit

and adjust the units or % to make recycling worth while but not fantastic.

This also has the effect of continuing to make gathering a requirement, since recycling doesn't give you any usefull material, it only 'boosts' the effect of existing mats.

Recycling skill would then apply to the 'boost' amount, and not the how much scrap you get from items.

The skill points would have to be returned again for recycle, but combat guys wouldn't have to worry about spending points on it, as it would fall under production, as it should.

Arga, please play the game again.  I will build you an awesome wall.

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Re: Recycling of Commodities

Arga is still getting over the gamma TP nerf, get over it already tongue, and make a wall of turrets 2000m from TP big_smile


Not to derail thread I don't particularly like over complicated industry just for the sake of it. I would much prefer commodities with less volume than raw materials.

RIP PERPETUUM

7 (edited by Zortarg Calltar 2013-03-13 10:44:36)

Re: Recycling of Commodities

my main point here is:
if you do pve you get a lot of t1 loot. way more then you need for production. recycle it all and you get a bunch of comodities. mainly standart but also quite a few faction.
the problem is that the ballance is off. you get a lot from some stuff but less from others. so we are sitting on thousands of Us of commodities that we do not need in this form. and the ballance is getting more off with every week passing.

but there are materials in these commodities that we could use for other commodities that we still need. so most logical thought is to extract these resources and use them for the stuff that we do need.
and the most easy way to do and fix this without any major changes is to allow recycling of commodities.

alternativly you could change the refining system as well. but that would be a bit more complacated.
basicly that you can use your commodities as resources as well.
but then you will need a way more complicated screen because you have multible input and multible output materials. resources that will not fit into the end products will be lost in the process.

would also work.

@arga:
welll this might work in other games but i dont see that this will fit in the current system we have in perp.

8 (edited by Jurien 2013-03-31 10:25:05)

Re: Recycling of Commodities

.

Re: Recycling of Commodities

Jurien wrote:

c) +1 to commodities having slightly less U volume then the resources used to make them.

We dont have this? O.o So +1 from me.

To the OP, I think Zortarg idea is acceptable dont have any problem with it.

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Re: Recycling of Commodities

Would be interested to know the Dev's thinking on the volume of commodities. They seem afraid to reduce their volume lest they create some imbalance, possibly many causal links away. I can't really see what that imbalance might be, however.

Players were asking for a reduction in the run-up to Indy 2.0 and the patch actually made commodity volume equal to volume of base quantity of raw materials - an increase in volume for the higher skilled players at Beta facilities.

Re: Recycling of Commodities

Jurien wrote:

c) +1 to commodities having slightly less U volume then the resources used to make them.

This is already true as far as I know. Since the volume of commodities equals the sum of their components, and you can't ever reach perfect refining efficiency, the resulting commodity volumes will always be lower.

Re: Recycling of Commodities

Aliens.

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Re: Recycling of Commodities

DEV Zoom wrote:
Jurien wrote:

c) +1 to commodities having slightly less U volume then the resources used to make them.

This is already true as far as I know. Since the volume of commodities equals the sum of their components, and you can't ever reach perfect refining efficiency, the resulting commodity volumes will always be lower.

The wastage factor is almost too small a reduction worth mentioning, aside from the fact that the better the refine makes it even worse. Have you ever wondered why commodities have barely ever been traded? The refining of raw materials serves no purpose in transportation, therefore it will never be traded. Hence the OP issue.

Make a considerable reduction on commodities volume, so at least it's name 'commodity' actually means something.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Recycling of Commodities

When producing for PIE, there was no value in buying commodities. My alpha refining was good, the volume of the material was the same, and commodities require more planning.

The biggest hurdle to get producers to start buying commodities though is that the raw materials are used in multiple commodities. The best example is titan. Unless Titanium is really cheap, your better off having the titan ore in your inventory, so you can use it to create Titanium, Plasteostine, Alligior, Hydrobenol, Axicoline, Coalimin, or Briochit as needed. And when I mean it's a hurdle, its not just a factory hurdle, but a hurdle for commodity sellers. If you have 100M titan ore at your refinery, which commodities are you going to make with it? Why take a risk when you can sell it raw and make almost the same profit?

As for recycling and selling commodities on the market... by the time producers are at the factory, they already have the commodities they need, that they got from their raw materials. When I make a run of bots, I don't look on the market to see what commodities are available, I look in my inventory for raw mats to convert, if I don't have enough then I'll buy more raws and 'click' to refine them.

Probably the only players looking at commodities are the new producers, which then calculate the cost to produce the T1 item based on what the commodities cost, find that it costs them more to produce than what the T1's are selling for, so they go out and mine their own.

Re: Recycling of Commodities

-1
it is too easy to recycle unintended commodities when recycling rare ores, as they tend to be next to each other in my storage.

+1 as soon, as I can use commodities from container for all purpose.