Topic: Statistics

Hey, out of boredom:

Are there any statistics scripts running on the DEV server?
(and is anyone looking at them at all)
Every serious game i am following the last few years mentions database analysis are done to see item and cashflow, skill usage, class balance, etc.

For Example, Blizzard recently released a fow of those sheets about Diablo3.

Now Perpetuum is a game with a fully player driven Economy, Crafting and Item loss at death. I would expect some analysis tools are implemented, to justify balance changes or see where DEV intervention is necessary (Duping, Inflation, Deflation, etc.)

Back in Beta, Gargaj's Infopage had a page showing individual player wealth as abstract picture (where mine was a pixel while blackomens was a quarter of the servers whole balance)

I can only guess that this is just a rhetorical question....

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Statistics

I like statistics , actually it can help improve the game and know where it needs work. Sharing it publicly with the player base will also make us feel more involved.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Statistics

HMMM sweet data.. yes this would be cool to see smile

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

Re: Statistics

Agreed, this would be a sweet feature.

Re: Statistics

I guess Skype doesn't work anymore.

Steam achievement Unlocked:  Being a Badass
http://www.perp-kill.net/kill/239407
Dev Zoom: I think its time to confess, Ville is my alt
Dev Zoom: Ville can be sometimes so sane it's scary.

Re: Statistics

I never complain against free intel. big_smile

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Re: Statistics

Dev Zoom, do you guys use any statistics to make any decisions.?

Like for example average logged on sessions times. I have learned that  a decrease in logged on per session usually means players are about to quit or getting bored, giving developers time to react delivering new content or Dev blog before they actually quit.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Statistics

Imagine the following conversation within the dev team:

- Guys, guys! We need STATISTICS to see what's wrong with the game!
- But... we already know what's wrong with the game and we're working on it.
- Oh. Carry on.

Re: Statistics

Okay, serious answer: we COULD make statistics of various things since we have all the data. We actually do it for specific things if the need arises, for example we used the magic of statistics to find out which transport missions have been abused in the cargo exploit investigation.

But if the question is whether we have a few trained monkeys sitting in front of graphs and making scientific deductions based on them, then the asnwer is no. We lack the time and we lack the manpower. Then again, I don't think we would find any big surprises.

Statistics only mean something if you're convinced that the underlying mechanics are fundamentally good. If you know something doesn't work then statistics are just numbers. In other words: we'd love to reach a state in the development of the game where our only concern would be statistics.

Re: Statistics

DEV Zoom wrote:

Okay, serious answer: we COULD make statistics of various things since we have all the data. We actually do it for specific things if the need arises, for example we used the magic of statistics to find out which transport missions have been abused in the cargo exploit investigation.

But if the question is whether we have a few trained monkeys sitting in front of graphs and making scientific deductions based on them, then the asnwer is no. We lack the time and we lack the manpower. Then again, I don't think we would find any big surprises.

Statistics only mean something if you're convinced that the underlying mechanics are fundamentally good. If you know something doesn't work then statistics are just numbers. In other words: we'd love to reach a state in the development of the game where our only concern would be statistics.

Sounds like you need to dust off those beta stickers again then Zoom.

It's better to be proud with your work than to keep working because you feel you have to.

Re: Statistics

Okay, that might have come out more gloomy than intended smile
Bottom line is, we are aware what the biggest flaws are without statistics too.

12 (edited by Jita 2013-03-07 01:09:10)

Re: Statistics

Zoom i'm sorry but your not. If you had statistics you could see the folks who are obtaining various things at a level thats vastly bigger than they should and take action on it - the beacon issue wouldn't have happened and neither would the insurance issue.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Statistics

Let's not mix exploits here. You can't make statistics if you don't know what you're looking for.

Re: Statistics

I disagree. You build a database of all items and nic that audits once a day You have it pull off average generation  and destruction rates for each item globally, by corp and by agent. You also do the same for items 'on hand' in personal and corp hangers. Look for statistical anomalies and then amend / nerf as needed.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

15 (edited by Celebro 2013-03-07 08:57:04)

Re: Statistics

Although statistics could be relevant in finding 'exploits'. My main query on using stats was develop hard facts about the game over time, in order to improve or learn from past mistakes.

Simple stats like:

When do the majority of players quit? Right after the trial, in a few months or just a 3 days old players. If for example players stay for a very short while, we would need to improve the trial experience and tutorials. If most quit after getting into a heavy mech we need to look at ways to keep players more interested.

Does a change in any mechanic or content, made players log for longer hours or less? Did they leave or just whined on forums but most of them stayed?

I mean, don't you need some hard evidence why you are changing something? I'm not sure going with your gut instinct is the best way to make decisions. I understand if it is a problem with lack of manpower, but I'm not convinced statistics are just a bunch of numbers and a waste of time, if analysed properly.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Statistics

Finding out what players do and why players don't play would be incredibly useful.

Re: Statistics

Celebro wrote:

I understand if it is a problem with lack of manpower, but I'm not convinced statistics are just a bunch of numbers and a waste of time, if analysed properly.

Absolutely. Please tell me you at least keep an eye on sinks and taps (faucets for you North American chaps). A massive spike in assignment and plasma income has potential to seriously destabalise the game.

... oh, wait wink

Seriously, though, you do do this don't you?

Re: Statistics

Jita: of course, making logs of everything is easy, and we do it for a lot of things. "Look for statistical anomalies" is the hard part. You can't just simply set a threshold for "plasma sold per character per day". What if he doesn't sell it immediately but collects it for some weeks and sells in bulk, what if he does it with alts, what if he puts half of it into the corp storage to let his corpmates sell it on beta? There are so many possibilities in the game that it's near impossible to set up global watchdogs for "everything".

And yes, we do have a graph of global NIC flow, but that hardly helps you discover an exploit done by a few individuals.

Re: Statistics

I said generated. Plasma isnt plasma until the rat dies. Same with ore and nic generated from missions. Its not the flow of anything that matters but when it is created in game from player action. If you look at that per player and corp per hour day week and month you will see what is happening. Why not just pull of the data, host is somewhere and let the community sort it. I do statistical analysis all day and would be happy to help.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Statistics

One part of our business sells food, its not really the main business, its more of a convience; like Ikea's horsemeatballs.

Our old Point of Sale didn't collect information about how people ordered their food. For example, it would register hamburger, but not 'well done' with extra mustard.

The new POS system tracks all that. The F&B manager can see any statistic they want to, to the smallest detail.

It doesn't make much of a difference though, because only 3-4 customers eat there, and the rest of the business is from employees. All the data in the world isn't going to improve sales.

In the case of Perp, it's not worth dev times to pour over logs to try and figure out whats going on with the details, when they know they have a population issue to resolve; that is make the game better so people stay.

Re: Statistics

If its not worth the devs time to balance the economy were in trouble.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Statistics

You changed it from pouring 'over logs' to a more generic 'balance the economy'.

There are more effective ways for the devs to spend their time in an effort to balance the economy then to pour over detailed logs. Then again, they also have to prioritize on what problems they spend time on, since they don't have infinite resources. I'm also not sure which issues you are specifically addressing with the term balance, or if your alluding to exlpoits that create NIC out of thin air.

Changing the beacons seems to be a change in balancing the economy.

If a game mechanic allows for billions of NIC per hour to be created, that sounds like a big deal, unless your game generates 1000 trillion NIC per hour. In other words, something that's only accounts for a factional % point of your overall NIC flow may still be a problem, but its hardly something that needs to be fixed immeditaly.

You could make the arguement that beacon farming was going on for a long time, why fix it now. Probably because in the overall picture, it still doesn't matter as much as getting more people into the game.


tl;dr - Eh. Creepers gonna creep. Devs are so far behind on the fix it list, it must be overwhelming to think about it.

Re: Statistics

What Arga says, basically smile

Re: Statistics

I'm basically saying that beacons insurance and god knows what else only come to light by forum posts and whining when its glaringly obvious from the data.

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: Statistics

Jita wrote:

I'm basically saying that beacons insurance and god knows what else only come to light by forum posts and whining when its glaringly obvious from the data.

By putting beacons and insurance (fraud) together are you implying they are both exploits? Because there's a hige difference between running missions and beacons now with the current game mechanics and the inusrance and cargo exploits. Back on topic I thought the OP was asking for more rhings like the corp circle graphs and the travel map you guys put out last year ... Things like those and usage statistics like % of blue/green/red bots would be cool. If it doesnt consume precious resources. Maybe have Jita make something up, much along the likes of what Ludlow did with the killboard stats.