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Topic: Intrusion 3.0

I know many including my self had made posts on the forum that intrusion 1.0 needed to change to a more dynamic system. Intrusion 2.0 isnt dynamic.. just a bit more random.

So with reading some of the comments made about intrusion 2.0 i got to thinking how could a intrusion 3.0 be made to work that is both dynamic for small pvp & also allows for some of the big fights of old smile

Idea:
remove sap loot & make saps active 24/7.
a sap remains active until it is completed. after which another (random) sap will activate 1 Hour later. each sap is worth 2% stability.
the time to take an outpost would be 2 ish days min.
outpost owners can do their own saps to increase stability.
Attacker must do a proper Siege of a outpost to take over control.

bring back outpost tokens.
Every 50 successful attacks the attacking corp can challenge the ownership of the station outright no matter what the stability level is. (kinda like in the old intrusion 1.0) but if the attacker wins stability is set to 20% & outpost ownership flips to the attacker. The defenders tho can set the time zone for the attack.

This still means the defender can win back the station but they have to prove them selves. Equal this is the same for the attacker.

Lets use an example:
Nauwy is being attacked by CIR. we have over 3 days taken 50 saps equal to 100% stability. M2S tho has been able to take 22 saps in that same time (44% stability) so the outpost sits at 56%. at this rate it will take nearly a week to set the station neutral.

Syndic wanting to get back to care bearing challenges the outpost owners (m2S) for total stability since CIR has taken 50 saps. On using his token he can select which of the next attack times the outpost has available. this time tho is set by the outpost owners to fall in a TZ of their choosing. As outpost owners you pick a 4 hour "window" when a attack token is used a random time will be selected. M2S has picked a time frame of 7- 11pm EST. CIR uses the token. 8:46 pm is randomly picked  2 days later ( any attack time can not being less than 24hours from time of use, this is to allow defenders proper time for prepping.)

All dynamic Saps are suspended till after the challenge is finished. the outpost stability level remains at 56%

at 8:46 2 days later all 3 saps on Nauwy Activate. Attacker must win 2 saps Defenders must win 2.Tto win a sap takes 20 mins. the challenge lasts for 1 hour.
So we have 3 options for this example.

1.
CIR has won the need 2 saps. Having done this outpost ownership flips to them with 20% stability (50% needed for outpost lock). They still need to secure the outpost saps for the next few days. in this time m2s can try to retake / destabilize the station.

2.
M2s wins the challenge defending its outpost. stability is set back to 100%

3.
Neither side wins enough saps in the 1 hour.  if both sides dont complete the needed saps in time the challenge finishes & reverts back to dynamic saps. & the outpost stays at 56%.

A challenge token can only be used once a week.

The 50 saps needed must be completed within a 7 days of the first sap being taken.

All sap counters for any attacking corps are reset after a attack token has been used.

This kind of constant sap system would be much better in reflecting who is actually active in the area & in away allow for those small fights then maybe the big fights of the old 1.0 system.
Its would be more true for showing who is active on that island.

However with the removal of sap loot. star & normal beacons would need to have the drop rates boosted slightly when farming standard beacons.
chance of getting cortex from artifact scanning gets a boost.

So this is just my thoughts all times & figures given are just ball park.

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue
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Re: Intrusion 3.0

*cough* I don't like the idea of doing specimen saps every hour. big_smile

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3 Reply by Obi Wan Kenobi (edited by Obi Wan Kenobi 2013-02-18 00:38:29)

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Re: Intrusion 3.0

Syndic wrote:

*cough* I don't like the idea of doing specimen saps every hour. big_smile

well yes those might need a look at big_smile

the other 3 sap types would work well as is tho.

Edit: perhaps all outposts should have all 4 saps. passive hack, active hack, destruction being the only dynamic saps. For attack token challenges specimen saps are used + 2 random saps.

specimen saps tho would require ALOT more U of material than what they do atm maybe?

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

4 Reply by Obi Wan Kenobi (edited by Obi Wan Kenobi 2013-02-18 02:38:55)

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Re: Intrusion 3.0

Ok ive been thinking about how the saps could work.

In dynamic mode passive hack, active hack, destruction saps all work as they are. This would be great for small gang pewpew.

Attack Token
But why not change the way Saps work when an attack token is used?
So lets look at each sap & see how it might work in this situation.
The whole idea of Intrusion 3.0 would be to better reflect who is able to control the land around a station so the way saps should work should reflect this principle.

instead of saps being able to be "won" in 10-15 mins as i posted above lets change it up. Saps remain active for the whole hour of the attack challenge. Using a pure influence system. So lets see how an Influence system could work for each Sap.

Passive Hacking.
This is very simple really, the corp that stands on in the area of this sap the most & has the most influence wins. But this could be boring lets be honest. So lets add a few twists to make things interesting.
1. to start influencing the sap you only have to get in range of the sap. lets not make this a very short range but put it at 500m. your corp only needs 1 member to start the timer more people will not give you more influence BUT PVP flags will not allow your mech to be counted as a corp representative. if your whole fleet is PVP flagged then you cant gain influence. So you need to have a few in the fleet (most likely the dude(s) with the biggest tank) to be the ones to give your corp influence.

This would endup being a kinda of defend the flag carrier situation in other games. each attacker / defending corp has to protect their "flag carriers" while at the same time trying to kill the opposing sides.

At the end of the hour the corp with the most influence wins this sap.

Active hacking
This Sap again has a larger area of effect 500m ish. You can hack while on the move BUT unlike the passive the more hackers you have the more influence you can gain. Those who are hacking have can also fire weapons & activate defenses like normal. the draw back is hacking mods cost alot of CPU & Grid. tho dont take up allot of accu.
This would encourage hacker from both sides to pvp while hacking. meaning theres less of a chance for a SNOOZE fest.

Destruction
This Sap for the most part would be the same. Its simple, the corp with the most damage at the end of the hour wins. HOWEVER you can repair the sap of damage done by the enemy (bring those RRs boys!) with out effecting the influence of your own corp.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But this leads me to the next thing with saps. What about Ewar??
Ewar would have 2 choices. should i attack the enemy mechs or the sap?
See each sap would be susceptible to Ewar in different ways & with different consequences.  lets look again at how each sap would work when Ewar is thrown its way!

Passive Hacking.
Influence with out Ewar is simple 100 points every second. ECM & Suppression changes this
EMCing the passive hacking sap would cause the enemy influence to be worth less for each cycle. 1 EMC reduces this by 30% anymore would start to show diminishing returns after this. this could mean that every second the enemy is now only getting 70 points or less.
Suppression works by slowing down the cycles for the enemy corp. say 50% per mod with diminishing returns.
So with this example of 1 of each mod being used an enemy corp would now be getting 70 points every 1.5 secs.

The diminishing returns would be gradual with this so as to encourage more people to Ewar the sap.

What if your enemy has to many on 1 sap for you to find head on? send in some ewar to mess them up untill the main force can get there! smile

Active hacking
These saps react slightly different. Ewar used on this sap effects both defending & attacking corps.
Hacking mods have a stability factor. under normal (no Ewar) situation they work ever cycle @ their normal cycle strengths. BUT tongue
ECMing the Sap creates instability with ALL hacking mods making them more likely to "miss" a cycle. Instability starts at 0% but caps out at 90% at this rate 9 out of 10 cycles could miss the hack or be ineffectual. With diminishing returns so as to encourage more people to get in on the action
Suppression: as you might guess by now will slow down ALL the hacking mods cycle time. again with diminishing returns.

Again Ewar on a active hack would effect every one who is trying to hack the sap. ECM & suppression of the sap ONLY effects hacking mods on each player bot & not the whole mech.

this makes give Ewar pilots 2 options.

Destruction
now you might be saying at this point the enemy can already RR any damage the other side has done why would we need to add Ewar into this? AND my answer would be.. why not tongue
The destruction sap not only takes the damage you do to it but it also can be ECM'd, Suppressed & overloaded yarr

ECM: This sap holds a ECM "Hw3" buffer. if this is overloaded it sends out a EMP burst that knocks out ALL mechs within 800m ( so watch out this could hit your squad as well as the enemies. To over load this buffer you just need to ECM the sap. the buffer tho is VERY large 20,000  Mw3. how do you charge it? that depends on your ECM strength. a standard ECM (base value) is 30Hw3. so this would provide a 30Mw3 charge to the Sap buffer. Simple really.

Suppression: The Destruction Sap has interference values. But its base value is 0. A suppressor mod can be used to increase this smile the higher the interference value the greater the AOE & power similar to how mech interference works. the difference is say i fire off a cycle at it the effect of that 1 cycle will diminish slowly over the next 20 os so seconds. the more that interference is the longer this takes to "cool down" but saying that interference doesnt have a "buffer" if you want to produce more interference you need to have more suppression mods on the Sap & to max it out you would need ALOT! smile

Opps i forgot about overload \o/ fuuu

Overloading
This works much like ECM. The sap has an Accumulator buffer. cap transferring it to full will overload it causing it to blow up! Think plasma bomb mk2 smile with a larger AOE somthing that would make a mesmer pilot go OH s**t RUN! tongue
A simple idea but again 1 that might spice up a fight.


The above 3 saps & how i propose they work would provide for very interesting & dynamic fights.

But ive left 1 Sap to last. Specimen Saps...

Specimen Sap
The way they work now is good i think But in Intrusion 3.0 these would no longer appear as a Dynamic Sap. These would hold a special but very important place for times when Intrusion Attack Tokens are used.
This sap has 5 Phases. 5mins apart. each phase this Sap can be won unlike the other 3 saps which last the whole hour. Specimen Saps can be won in as little as 15mins. a corp only needs to complete 3 phases.
This means the first corp to win this sap will have a easier time at winning 1 of the other saps leaving the other corp to try to win the 2 remaining Saps.
So this 15-25 mins could be the most important of the whole Token Intrusion!
But this brings me to one important issue,

LOCATION! LOCATION! LOCATION!
The Location of Specimen Saps on all Beta islands would need to be in a semi neutral location near the owning station. As an example of bad location for Intrusion 3.0.
Nauwy: The Sap location heavily favors the outpost owners. Given in Intrusion 3.0 the immense value of this Sap a location like this would not be good.
However the Sap does need to be both semi defend-able & semi attack-able.   Thought must be given to location & terrain on & around the Sap & might mean a little bit of redesign of the local Terraforming so that a corp thats on the sap can defend its self & at the same time allow an enemy to push in.

a simple way i feel would be for this Sap to be located on a open part of the terrain (360deg field of fire) but with a few small buildings around the Sap.

Think of Specimen Saps as King of the hill for 15-25 mins smile


In conclusion.
The aim of these ideas is to give an intrusion system that is dynamic allowing for ninja attacks / small time pvp But also allowing for larger more indepth Fights to happen.

I feel the above ideas would take & expand on some of the things intrusion 1.0 had & at the same time take the intentions of a more dynamic system intrusion 2.0 was aiming for by making saps persistent & open to attack allowing for more vulnerability & stability movement but not so much that station ownership & control is unattainable. 

Station bonuses tho that are given at 100% i do think would need to be moved back to 90% so that some room & sleep is allowed to the station owners smile

I look forward to peoples thoughts on this idea! wink

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue
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Re: Intrusion 3.0

I like the idea of removing the system all together and making static locations on the beta islands for people to build PBS light outposts. Of course details would have to be worked out.

Obi and I chatted for about an hour last night. I think him and I will do a podcast and repeat the chat.

I know... How boring..... neutral

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Re: Intrusion 3.0

Gremrod wrote:

I like the idea of removing the system all together and making static locations on the beta islands for people to build PBS light outposts. Of course details would have to be worked out.

Something like this is actually what i had in mind when i was for the release "Player built Walls". Bigger sections of pre-set walls built in Pre-defined locations, together with animated Gates in C&C Tiberian Sun-style.
But, someone thought restrictions are not enough "Sandbox" like.

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7 Reply by Gharl Incognito (edited by Gharl Incognito 2013-02-19 11:33:25)

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Re: Intrusion 3.0

To my mind the biggest question here should be the role Beta Outposts have: why do you want to hold a Beta Outpost?  The way I see it, beta Outposts at present are the games forts or stockades... not the powerhouse citadels of Gamma or the utterly impregnable Alpha, Beta Outposts are the safehouses in between.  Without a doubt the people most likely to be ruthlessly ganked on Beta are newer players, the kind of players that need forts.

These are the kind of forts I would expect to be held by mercenary, PvP focused Corps: they can farm the greatest range of NPCs and they can have access to Alpha resource gathering and Gamma production.  As far as risk vs reward goes Beta Outposts are really the best you can get; this is NOT reflected by the ease at which they can be aquired and maintained and their current state also undermines the relative value of Gamma based Outposts(you cannot blow up Beta). 

The point here is that Beta should be more dynamic; it is the real battlefield of Nia at needs to have the ebb and flow one expects from a dynamic environment. The best way I can think of accomplishing this is to make the following changes:

- all SAPs become Active Hacking

- raise the stability percentage needed to lock out to 75%. 

- make 'benign hacks'(a hack which closes a SAP but doesn't reduce stability) possible

- 75% decrease in the appearence of SAP cans.

- slight randomization of 'stability' gained from successful SAP hack.

- a sliding scale for a rise in the frequency of SAP activation depending on how stable an Outpost is(the less stable the Outpost is the more SAP activations happen from the current rates at 100% down to constant, multiple SAP activation at 0%).

This system would make it possible for a tenacious small group to hold a Beta Outpost far more easily, but also require that they did so with a purpose.  For a large, timezone spanning group to hold an Outpost is relativly easy... something like this would make SAP hacking a little more gureilla warfare and a little less 'defend the hauler'(something everyone is far more concerned about on Gamma anyway).

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Re: Intrusion 3.0

Defenders should be able to complete saps and avoid 1 hr mandatory circlejerks.

Lockouts are fine at 50% as they are.

Specimen needs to be deleted from the game, it's an outdated relic of the old system.

SAP cans should remain, they can provide a valuable incentive to new players to go looking for them.

Personally instead of reinventing the wheel, I would make a synergy and still allow the old "intrusions" in addition to the current procedure, so if someone is strong enough to come ruin your day they'll come ruin your day. Or just guerilla it down slowly. Options, more options...

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Re: Intrusion 3.0

Syndic wrote:

Defenders should be able to complete saps and avoid 1 hr mandatory circlejerks.

We never had to circlejerk at Dana during the populated times. Players were already 'online' and active on the Island, maybe we put a few more scouts up, but generally we went about business as usual and no one bothered to even visit.

During off-peak, with only 2-3 people on the Island, we weren't going to defend it anyway. We were mostly there to just pickup the can if no one came calling.

If defenders could cap what would change is that attackers would need to show up slightly before the SAP went active, instead of 'sometime' during a 60 min window. Giving the advantage to the defenders of knowing when the attack is going to take place makes sense in off-peak time, but it would make taking a guarded on-peak SAP impossible without overwhelming force.

Which leads back around to the old arguement about 'is owning a Beta outpost worth the effort' of taking it, or keeping it. When M2S and friends really wanted to take Dana from us last year, there were (2) big battles, and the rest was sniping SAPs during off-peak. If I recall correctly, they eventually took the outpost past neutral, but no one had enough players to hold 1 island effectively, let alone a 2nd island across the map. So we were able to just snipe them back as the 'effort' of defending sucks, and by design, trying to defend a SAP not on your main island is almost impossible.

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Re: Intrusion 3.0

Syndic wrote:

Specimen needs to be deleted from the game, it's an outdated relic of the old system.

I agree 100% with this one.

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Re: Intrusion 3.0

one thing that i never liked about the limits -

there is no buffer for the outpost effects. the best ones availiable at 100%, which means, not even one sap-loss tolerance. The aura will be deactivated immediately. Thats very unfriendly for corps without 24h presence.

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Re: Intrusion 3.0

Arga wrote:
Syndic wrote:

Defenders should be able to complete saps and avoid 1 hr mandatory circlejerks.

We never had to circlejerk at Dana during the populated times. Players were already 'online' and active on the Island, maybe we put a few more scouts up, but generally we went about business as usual and no one bothered to even visit.

During off-peak, with only 2-3 people on the Island, we weren't going to defend it anyway. We were mostly there to just pickup the can if no one came calling.

If defenders could cap what would change is that attackers would need to show up slightly before the SAP went active, instead of 'sometime' during a 60 min window. Giving the advantage to the defenders of knowing when the attack is going to take place makes sense in off-peak time, but it would make taking a guarded on-peak SAP impossible without overwhelming force.

Which leads back around to the old arguement about 'is owning a Beta outpost worth the effort' of taking it, or keeping it. When M2S and friends really wanted to take Dana from us last year, there were (2) big battles, and the rest was sniping SAPs during off-peak. If I recall correctly, they eventually took the outpost past neutral, but no one had enough players to hold 1 island effectively, let alone a 2nd island across the map. So we were able to just snipe them back as the 'effort' of defending sucks, and by design, trying to defend a SAP not on your main island is almost impossible.

Bear in mind that was in the era before spark-teleports, when going to an intrusion meant a complicated chain of interzones/standards and a lot of waiting to get whole fleets moved across the map. These days you simply haul supplies in the off-time, spark over and you're ready to go.

How about defenders are able to complete it in x2 time it takes for an attacker, so 20 minutes for defender 10 minutes for attacker (so it's not too easy but its not too hard either)?

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Re: Intrusion 3.0

2 things that happen to strike my interests here, no more specimen sap and defenders being able to not do the circle jerk for an hour.

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Re: Intrusion 3.0

Syndic wrote:

Bear in mind that was in the era before spark-teleports, when going to an intrusion meant a complicated chain of interzones/standards and a lot of waiting to get whole fleets moved across the map. These days you simply haul supplies in the off-time, spark over and you're ready to go.

How about defenders are able to complete it in x2 time it takes for an attacker, so 20 minutes for defender 10 minutes for attacker (so it's not too easy but its not too hard either)?

This is as good as anything really. I would have protested louder if not for the Spark, since before that it could easily take 20-30 mins of the 1 hour active time just to get over and organized.

The only caveat to this would be ANY interruption would cause the defense to fail; but the SAP would still default to the owner unless an attacker capped the SAP.

But that should be OK, since if someone shows up then sheet just got interesting anyway.

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Re: Intrusion 3.0

Gharl Incognito wrote:


This system would make it possible for a tenacious small group to hold a Beta Outpost far more easily, .

Holding Outposts isn't really for small corps, and anything that makes it easier for them, also makes it easier for large corps. If you want a 'dynamic' beta then just remove outpost ownership, Beta outpost ownership was the endgame for larger corps / alliances, now that endgame is Gamma, and Beta can become something else.