1 (edited by Nemo 2012-05-22 04:51:23)

Topic: Will Beta and Gamma Resources and Industry kill trade with Alpha?

I know that Alpha is going to get some PvE loving-- soon (tm)-- and I personally will be living on Beta/Gamma.

However, I still believe that a viable Alpha experience will be one of the keys to Perpetuum's longevity and growth.  If nothing else, Alpha can be a good place to learn the ropes before making the jump elsewhere.  Ideally, it may even keep a certain permanent population-- and not just one of alts.

So: with the realignment of resurce availability, with the absolute necessity for Beta/Gama resources for so many more products, and with the implication that Alpha resources may become available on Beta-- will it become pointless to try and do industry on Alpha?

Or will there be "Alpha niche products" that will actually be of use to the Beta/Gamma folks?  Will there be trade?

Note that Beta/Gamma corps will have things that Alphans want, but if there is nothing that Alpha can trade back, then...

2 (edited by Sundial 2012-05-14 21:31:07)

Re: Will Beta and Gamma Resources and Industry kill trade with Alpha?

Without a bigger population people will lean towards self sufficiency.

A couple predictions that I think will hold true regardless of population:

1. Resources will be exported out of gamma/beta to alpha for production
2. Some but not all CT's/decoders will be imported to gamma, combined, and then exported back to alpha for production.

Alpha is still completely safe and as long as it is I don't see any reason to do production on gamma islands where logistics are a big headache. People probably won't mine much alpha minerals on gamma/beta, so if they do decide to do production there most likely they will import materials they buy from alpha.

I don't really see alpha getting cut out of the loop at all from a trading standpoint more than it has been already because of the non existent population. Previously beta corps did all their production on alpha, I suspect this will remain the same.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: Will Beta and Gamma Resources and Industry kill trade with Alpha?

i predict that the trade of commodities will raise above the trade of minerals

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: Will Beta and Gamma Resources and Industry kill trade with Alpha?

Sundial wrote:

Without a bigger population people will lean towards self sufficiency.

A couple predictions that I think will hold true regardless of population:

1. Resources will be exported out of gamma/beta to alpha for production
2. Some but not all CT's/decoders will be imported to gamma, combined, and then exported back to alpha for production.

Alpha is still completely safe and as long as it is I don't see any reason to do production on gamma islands where logistics are a big headache. People probably won't mine much alpha minerals on gamma/beta, so if they do decide to do production there most likely they will import materials they buy from alpha.

I don't really see alpha getting cut out of the loop at all from a trading standpoint more than it has been already because of the non existent population.


But will that be "trade" or just corp mining/production ops by Beta/Gamma folks?

Re: Will Beta and Gamma Resources and Industry kill trade with Alpha?

Annihilator wrote:

i predict that the trade of commodities will raise above the trade of minerals

That will never happen for two reasons:

1. The number of different commodities
2. The volume of commodities

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: Will Beta and Gamma Resources and Industry kill trade with Alpha?

Nemo wrote:
Sundial wrote:

Without a bigger population people will lean towards self sufficiency.

A couple predictions that I think will hold true regardless of population:

1. Resources will be exported out of gamma/beta to alpha for production
2. Some but not all CT's/decoders will be imported to gamma, combined, and then exported back to alpha for production.

Alpha is still completely safe and as long as it is I don't see any reason to do production on gamma islands where logistics are a big headache. People probably won't mine much alpha minerals on gamma/beta, so if they do decide to do production there most likely they will import materials they buy from alpha.

I don't really see alpha getting cut out of the loop at all from a trading standpoint more than it has been already because of the non existent population.


But will that be "trade" or just corp mining/production ops by Beta/Gamma folks?

Probably a bit of both, but I doubt many gamma corps will be buying anything other than commodities / ore from the alpha markets due to the common communist structure. Even that may be sparse due the self sufficient nature of players/corps overall in the game.

If we get corps that run differently / more players I am pretty sure you would see alot of corps starting to buy things from the alpha markets.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: Will Beta and Gamma Resources and Industry kill trade with Alpha?

If players are earning NIC, then they'll end up spending it somewhere, most likely at the open alpha bases.

Gamma Islands are too remote/dangerous to be trade hubs, the price can never be low enough to combat the time/risk (since gamma production has to import Epi too).

Beta production has a better chance now of becoming popular. With beta producers buying from the local Alpha market, the non-factional mats.

If there is a healthy market, then beta corps will make more NIC building with their Epi then they would selling it. Especially if they trade Epi with gamma for better CT's.

If there's no market, then there's nothing to kill.

Re: Will Beta and Gamma Resources and Industry kill trade with Alpha?

Sundial wrote:

That will never happen for two reasons:

1. The number of different commodities
2. The volume of commodities

have you actually checked that?

Refining will reduce the size of the goods, by a factor of at least 3! (alligior by a factor of 6 i think)

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

9 (edited by Sundial 2012-05-15 00:32:14)

Re: Will Beta and Gamma Resources and Industry kill trade with Alpha?

Annihilator wrote:
Sundial wrote:

That will never happen for two reasons:

1. The number of different commodities
2. The volume of commodities

have you actually checked that?

Refining will reduce the size of the goods, by a factor of at least 3! (alligior by a factor of 6 i think)

Did they change it on the test server? I did the math on it on the production server a while back and that is what I am basing it on.

Even if they reduce the volume if you have a bazillion different commodities it will definitely influence in a negative way the amount they are traded on the market. So while you may see some common commodities being traded / haulled, I think you will still see a large amount of ore buying and selling.

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: Will Beta and Gamma Resources and Industry kill trade with Alpha?

The current trouble with commodities, is alpha refiners are working with level 2 facilities at about 4.5 relations; and sellers know this, so they price it at raw mats times this effciency.

Commodities will have to be made available at less than what the alpha producer can refine at, because stocking commodities is less effcient than raw materials, since you can use the raw material to create commodities on an as-needed-basis.

This means it will need to be refined on beta or gamma and transported back for sale. Which is all well and good, but the seller will still need to move the raw materials, and make enough profit per trip to account for the additional time overhead; simply moving Epitron back to alpha generally is more saleable then refining alligior, even though you can make fewer trips, because the alpha producer will use the Epi for any of the (3) high end commodities.

And finally, the alpha II facilities have the best factory and refining in the same location. So there's no need to run the mats around, you simply transport them once your 'factory' location and press the refine button as needed. Or more likely, with reduced volumes on raw ores being a possibility, transporters will move the faction raws (since the transporter probably doesn't have great refine skills, that's not going to be a viable option) for an incremental cost; which is still going to much less then the opportunity cost a beta or gamma refiner would charge to move the same volume of commodities to the alpha II depot.

Re: Will Beta and Gamma Resources and Industry kill trade with Alpha?

i dont see the problem with the what can be trade to gamma or the alpha player will not be able to compete.

there is one thing the gamma players would like to trade for. and that are the "low value" ores, and sell the more expesive stuff.
but there lies another problem. and that is the transportation. even with a scarab mk2 and lets say ore volumes will be reduced by factor 3, then the biggest transporation is still too small.

when it comes to transportation of vast number (and vast number will be nessessary for ore trade between alpha and gamma) then we need a vast transport bot. lets say about the 100.000U. that one can be slow and lets say it like a freighter in STeve that you can not loot with it on the field. only in terminals.
and why do we need that? because no gamma corp will go through the pain in transporting 100.000Us titan and other stuff in scarabs (yes we are happy for them) back to gamma when its such a pain in the a(ss). especialy with gamma islands are quite a few jumps out from alpha. to much risk for too much trains of goods. too vunrable and need too many ppl to do so. if we dont have a resonable transport to bring that stuff then trade will die as mentioned above. then if transportation is such a pain then we will not trade for it, then we will simply mine it ourselves. why pay nic when do it yourself is the same or just a bit less work.

Re: Will Beta and Gamma Resources and Industry kill trade with Alpha?

yep your right zortarg... as ive been playing on gamma i cant help but think with the game world now expended (thru new islands & the new TP system (which by the way i think is a good thing)) has as a by product that transport is now even more important. then add to that new mineral redistribution & we now have a big problem as you have stated.

IMO after PBS the first multi tile bot to come out should be a freighter smile

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

Re: Will Beta and Gamma Resources and Industry kill trade with Alpha?

Obi Wan Kenobi wrote:

IMO after PBS the first multi tile bot to come out should be a freighter smile

Pleaseeeee!!!  big_smile

Re: Will Beta and Gamma Resources and Industry kill trade with Alpha?

Arga wrote:
Obi Wan Kenobi wrote:

IMO after PBS the first multi tile bot to come out should be a freighter smile

Pleaseeeee!!!  big_smile

and/or a compression module working on raw materials/commodities only. One thing though, make haulers a separate bot group with 9x EP multiplier. We don't want everyone doing it, we want it to be a career choice.

Re: Will Beta and Gamma Resources and Industry kill trade with Alpha?

As a side note, Scarab MK II, requires Industrial robot 10, not glider skill. Meaning that non-mining accounts that people bumped up to Indy 8 to haul with, won't have access to the MK II for 54 days (if they even choose to spend the additional 78k EP on getting from 8 to 10).

But yeah, the frieghter would probably have it's own extension, but the first version would probably only need lvl 4, a light freighter with 10kU, saving room for heavies at 8 with 100KU.

Re: Will Beta and Gamma Resources and Industry kill trade with Alpha?

Arga wrote:

As a side note, Scarab MK II, requires Industrial robot 10, not glider skill. Meaning that non-mining accounts that people bumped up to Indy 8 to haul with, won't have access to the MK II for 54 days (if they even choose to spend the additional 78k EP on getting from 8 to 10).

But yeah, the frieghter would probably have it's own extension, but the first version would probably only need lvl 4, a light freighter with 10kU, saving room for heavies at 8 with 100KU.

Scarab MkII presumably still requires at least Glider 5...

As for freighters, it would be nice if there was a gradient, as you suggest-- or perhaps even three freighters.

There was a big gap between Sequer and Lithus/Scarab.

17 (edited by Obi Wan Kenobi 2012-05-19 01:20:41)

Re: Will Beta and Gamma Resources and Industry kill trade with Alpha?

Nemo wrote:
Arga wrote:

As a side note, Scarab MK II, requires Industrial robot 10, not glider skill. Meaning that non-mining accounts that people bumped up to Indy 8 to haul with, won't have access to the MK II for 54 days (if they even choose to spend the additional 78k EP on getting from 8 to 10).

But yeah, the frieghter would probably have it's own extension, but the first version would probably only need lvl 4, a light freighter with 10kU, saving room for heavies at 8 with 100KU.

Scarab MkII presumably still requires at least Glider 5...

As for freighters, it would be nice if there was a gradient, as you suggest-- or perhaps even three freighters.

There was a big gap between Sequer and Lithus/Scarab.

All freighters should be: slow (imo your pay off is big cargo holds) & can loot cans / fiald cans (only station to station as has been said)

"Light Freighter" smaller cargo hold little bit faster than the bigger version (s) but has a better masking value (120rF ?)...
For sake of argument why not say has 20k cargo hold

"Med Freighter" Cargo hold 50k little bit slower than the light version tho. Has bad masking (80rF ?) But better Detection value then the light freighter version.


"Heavy Freighter" 100K cargo. Very slow. Even worse masking then a med freighter (60rF? cant that even be done??? lol ) but as a trade off this has VERY good detection. it can be seen a long way of but it to can see other things along way off.

I would imagine all Freighters would be in the destroyer like class of mechs....

i think it would be cool if that had a multi leg design like a centipede smile OR if u ever read the book series Tthe Amtrak Wars they had these things called wagon Trains which were land going battle ships that kinda looked like this: http://images.wikia.com/amtrakwars/imag … ntrain.jpg

Imagine seeing on of these 100M or more long snaking its way along a HWY smile

I think Freighters should have no chasis slots & many lack any targeting at all.
Led & head slots only imo

just a few ideas smile

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

Re: Will Beta and Gamma Resources and Industry kill trade with Alpha?

A freighter with some guns to fend off small bots would also be nice or better yet a freighter with drone bots to attack small scout bots or other small harassments. smile

Re: Will Beta and Gamma Resources and Industry kill trade with Alpha?

Actually keeping freighters unarmed would create a new market for players. an Escort market

20 (edited by Arga 2012-05-22 18:25:07)

Re: Will Beta and Gamma Resources and Industry kill trade with Alpha?

Heyterlo wrote:

Actually keeping freighters unarmed would create a new market for players. an Escort market

Agreed. As long as the freighter had a very good tank, build in neut and sheild bonus, so that attackers would have to take out the escort first; otherwise players would just suicide bomb it.

Or 1m armor points would be ok too.

Re: Will Beta and Gamma Resources and Industry kill trade with Alpha?

I hope the devs don't consider the Scarab a freighter smile

Looking forward to new players and new conflicts.

Re: Will Beta and Gamma Resources and Industry kill trade with Alpha?

Just reduce ore/material volumes and make the scarab the mini freighter, larger bots are going to take a while.

RIP PERPETUUM

Re: Will Beta and Gamma Resources and Industry kill trade with Alpha?

Agra wrote:
Heyterlo wrote:

Actually keeping freighters unarmed would create a new market for players. an Escort market

Agreed. As long as the freighter had a very good tank, build in neut and sheild bonus, so that attackers would have to take out the escort first; otherwise players would just suicide bomb it.

Or 1m armor points would be ok too.

I'm all for preventing a suscuide bomber on a large unarmed transporter.  Freighters definately needs high armor values or high resistance values

Also for freighters of any size, I would put the bonus towards moving speeds instead of defences.