1 Topic by Gremrod (edited by Gremrod 2012-02-13 23:51:25)

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Topic: Walls; This is how I thought they would work.

Okay my idea had no decay mechanic, but here is how I thought they would work.

So point 4. takes the decay mechanic into count.

  1. No public building of walls on any beta island. The ability to put up a wall is tied to an outpost and holding the outpost i.e. (Stability)

  2. The holding corp of an outpost(s) of the current island are the only people that can build walls.

  3. Wall building is tied to the outpost stability mechanic. The higher the stability, the further out from the outpost you can place and build walls.

  4. Wall decay is tied to outpost stability. Walls do not start to decay until the outposts stability reaches 75 or below. Once the walls start to decay they need to be repaired. Decay stops once stability goes above 75. But walls that were affected need to still be repaired.


They talked about making people have to live and nurture their outpost to reap benefits from it. I think the walls should be part of the outpost stability benefit.



I am in no way saying this is how it should be done. This is just the path I would have taken to introduce the walls into the game.

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Re: Walls; This is how I thought they would work.

I would agree with this mechanic Grem. Too bad they didn't introduce it like this, but as I understand it, walls are part of the plant layer. Which likely limits the kinds of checks they can make before deployment.

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Re: Walls; This is how I thought they would work.

Arga wrote:

I would agree with this mechanic Grem. Too bad they didn't introduce it like this, but as I understand it, walls are part of the plant layer. Which likely limits the kinds of checks they can make before deployment.

Well then you extend it to its own layer or extend the planet layer class.

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Re: Walls; This is how I thought they would work.

@ grem - what's involved in a new layer?

Maybe they need one for PBS outposts anyway, and can move walls to that layer when it's done.

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Re: Walls; This is how I thought they would work.

they can restrict walls beeing placed less then XXX m away from teleport - for me that means they could also restrict it the other way.
And if the game can tell you "you dont have enough permissions to do this" when you try to log out, i think it can also tell you that when you try to plant a wall away from your own outpost.

It doesnt mean that the wall needs to belong to someone - it just needs to restrict the planting of them.

btw, my "Wall request" was for walls in pre-set locations around npc-outposts. where you can place them for intrusion fights. It also included Doors in such preset places.

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Re: Walls; This is how I thought they would work.

Gremrod wrote:

Okay my idea had no decay mechanic, but here is how I thought they would work.

So point 4. takes the decay mechanic into count.

  • No public building of walls on any beta island. The ability to put up a wall is tied to an outpost and holding the outpost i.e. (Stability)

  • The holding corp of an outpost(s) of the current island are the only people that can build walls.

  • Wall building is tied to the outpost stability mechanic. The higher the stability, the further out from the outpost you can place and build walls.

  • Wall decay is tied to outpost stability. Walls do not start to decay until the outposts stability reaches 75 or below. Once the walls start to decay they need to be repaired. Decay stops once stability goes above 75. But walls that were affected need to still be repaired.


They talked about making people have to live and nurture their outpost to reap benefits from it. I think the walls should be part of the outpost stability benefit.



I am in no way saying this is how it should be done. This is just the path I would have taken to introduce the walls into the game.

+1

I'd only add 2 things to this:

- walls cannot still be closer than 1000m from outpost

- The maximum distance you can have is 3000 m from outpost.  At stablity of 50 %, you get to have walls up to 2000m from outpost, at 70%  up to 2500m from outpost, and at 100% 3000m from outpost.

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Re: Walls; This is how I thought they would work.

Lupus Aurelius wrote:
Gremrod wrote:

Okay my idea had no decay mechanic, but here is how I thought they would work.

So point 4. takes the decay mechanic into count.

  • No public building of walls on any beta island. The ability to put up a wall is tied to an outpost and holding the outpost i.e. (Stability)

  • The holding corp of an outpost(s) of the current island are the only people that can build walls.

  • Wall building is tied to the outpost stability mechanic. The higher the stability, the further out from the outpost you can place and build walls.

  • Wall decay is tied to outpost stability. Walls do not start to decay until the outposts stability reaches 75 or below. Once the walls start to decay they need to be repaired. Decay stops once stability goes above 75. But walls that were affected need to still be repaired.


They talked about making people have to live and nurture their outpost to reap benefits from it. I think the walls should be part of the outpost stability benefit.



I am in no way saying this is how it should be done. This is just the path I would have taken to introduce the walls into the game.

+1

I'd only add 2 things to this:

- walls cannot still be closer than 1000m from outpost

- The maximum distance you can have is 3000 m from outpost.  At stablity of 50 %, you get to have walls up to 2000m from outpost, at 70%  up to 2500m from outpost, and at 100% 3000m from outpost.

Yeah I agree. I just choose to not detail the wall placement restrictions. Just wanted to put a point for the top level idea.

But you numbers etc. seem fine.

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Re: Walls; This is how I thought they would work.

Arga wrote:

@ grem - what's involved in a new layer?

Maybe they need one for PBS outposts anyway, and can move walls to that layer when it's done.

Not sure what would be involved.



Annihilator wrote:

they can restrict walls beeing placed less then XXX m away from teleport - for me that means they could also restrict it the other way.
And if the game can tell you "you dont have enough permissions to do this" when you try to log out, i think it can also tell you that when you try to plant a wall away from your own outpost.

It doesnt mean that the wall needs to belong to someone - it just needs to restrict the planting of them.

Good point Anni.

Annihilator wrote:

btw, my "Wall request" was for walls in pre-set locations around npc-outposts. where you can place them for intrusion fights. It also included Doors in such preset places.

I dot not like the idea of static locations for planting walls. This is very limiting in my mind.

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Re: Walls; This is how I thought they would work.

Annihilator wrote:

they can restrict walls beeing placed less then XXX m away from teleport - for me that means they could also restrict it the other way.
And if the game can tell you "you dont have enough permissions to do this" when you try to log out, i think it can also tell you that when you try to plant a wall away from your own outpost.

It doesnt mean that the wall needs to belong to someone - it just needs to restrict the planting of them.

btw, my "Wall request" was for walls in pre-set locations around npc-outposts. where you can place them for intrusion fights. It also included Doors in such preset places.

The difference is in WHO is placing them, not where. Having to verify that the deployment is from someone that is in the corp that owns the outpost requires additional checks that aren't needed for the plant layer.

If it was just based on distance to/from outpost, without ownership or layers, than that would probably work. But it wouldn't address the issue of counter-wall placement, which is requiring that the 95 tile limit be reached.

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Re: Walls; This is how I thought they would work.

because of the limitation of placing wall around SAPs too, the 3k limit could create many situation where walls couldn't be connected, making the usefullness of walls minimalized after all the restrictions.

If it was 3k out from the furthest SAP, that would be usefull, and still prevent walling off entire sections of islands at external TP's (in most cases).

Put too many restrictions on walls, and they simply won't be used, and while some players may not like them, they do add a whole new strategic layer to outpost ownership.

I would personally like to see them remain as they are, with the addition of the NIC based repper deployable.

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Re: Walls; This is how I thought they would work.

The way I would have liked to see walls implemented: 


Oh *** it lets not give them walls, lets focus on things like Better squad functions, more balancing in the game, and alliance functions!

1 year later: oh heres your wall.

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12 Reply by Gremrod (edited by Gremrod 2012-02-13 22:11:00)

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Re: Walls; This is how I thought they would work.

Arga wrote:

because of the limitation of placing wall around SAPs too, the 3k limit could create many situation where walls couldn't be connected, making the usefullness of walls minimalized after all the restrictions.

If it was 3k out from the furthest SAP, that would be usefull, and still prevent walling off entire sections of islands at external TP's (in most cases).

Put too many restrictions on walls, and they simply won't be used, and while some players may not like them, they do add a whole new strategic layer to outpost ownership.

I would personally like to see them remain as they are, with the addition of the NIC based repper deployable.

I will have to disagree with you on the way they are now.

1. Right now they are nothing but fluff and just spam nic sinks. Their current state better suits islands with no NPC outposts or terminals since anyone can plant walls any place them where they want.

This approach just doesn't fit the current beta islands and outposts.

The current walls are better suited for the PBS system.

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Re: Walls; This is how I thought they would work.

Arga wrote:

because of the limitation of placing wall around SAPs too, the 3k limit could create many situation where walls couldn't be connected, making the usefullness of walls minimalized after all the restrictions.

If it was 3k out from the furthest SAP, that would be usefull, and still prevent walling off entire sections of islands at external TP's (in most cases).

No.  This would triple the area that walls can be deployed.  If they are linked to outposts, and utmost limit is 3km from outpost, that is more than enough to cover saps and resources around an outpost, while still leaving at least half an island to be unwalled open terrain.  And that is the issue here.  Providing outpost defense is one thing, full island coverage should not be part of this.

Risk, for reward, embrace it...else stay off beta.

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14 Reply by Alexander (edited by Alexander 2012-02-13 22:28:42)

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Re: Walls; This is how I thought they would work.

Gremrod wrote:

  1. No public building of walls on any beta island. The ability to put up a wall is tied to an outpost and holding the outpost i.e. (Stability)

  2. The holding corp of an outpost(s) of the current island are the only people that can build walls.

  3. Wall building is tied to the outpost stability mechanic. The higher the stability, the further out from the outpost you can place and build walls.

  4. Wall decay is tied to outpost stability. Walls do not start to decay until the outposts stability reaches 75 or below. Once the walls start to decay they need to be repaired. Decay stops once stability goes above 75. But walls that were affected need to still be repaired.

As I see it you can reduce this list to 2 key points and both of them are valid.
The details are easily argued but the requirements make sense.

A/B:. Outpost ownership on the island where you're placing walls being required. +1
C/D. Stability controlling the number/range/health/decay/growth speed of walls +1

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Re: Walls; This is how I thought they would work.

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

Risk, for reward, embrace it...else stay off beta.

Just because walls reduce risk, doesn't make beta Islands safe, it just changes the risk/reward ratio without having to continually escalate the reward side.

12 months ago I was talking about balance, and how balancing the game to the top players make the game unplayable for the masses. If beta is dangerous for the most powerful corps in the game, then it is too dangerous for 80% of the rest.

3k radius may be just fine, and your subject based comments are valid, but its not up to any 1 player or corporation to determine what the 'correct' risk to reward ratio is. The recent uptick in beta activity and outpost contention is an indicator that walls have made beta more attractive to more players, and that is a step in the right direction.

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Re: Walls; This is how I thought they would work.

the issue is just that the DEVs didnt want to restrict walls to outpost owner ->
and that is what all suggestions resolve around.

the beta outposts are preset in a certain location, there capture mechanics are preset in a certain location - logical conclusion would be: preset locations for walls (non-plant layer walls that can be shot at)
and animated gates.

you upgrade your preset outpost like in an RTS game that resolves about preset-base building with upgrades of your choice. THAT would be in line with the current beta game mechanics that did everything to resolve around "tactical RTS games with ~10 Units" (example: MechCommander, JaggedAlliance)

it would also be in line with offering DIFFERENT gameplay on Gamma islands with real base building, unrestricted, no npc corp ownership and different wall building...

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Re: Walls; This is how I thought they would work.

whatever, remove walls from beta and we can all just log out and wait until devs get gamma islands, instead of getting incremental new toys to keep everyone interested and playing while gamma islands are being developed.

18 Reply by Gremrod (edited by Gremrod 2012-02-13 23:15:31)

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Re: Walls; This is how I thought they would work.

Arga wrote:

whatever, remove walls from beta and we can all just log out and wait until devs get gamma islands, instead of getting incremental new toys to keep everyone interested and playing while gamma islands are being developed.

Wow, All I said was I disagree with you. Not looking to be so drastic about it.

Crap I hate these forums!

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Re: Walls; This is how I thought they would work.

Alexander wrote:

P.S. The list function has THREE settings. *,1,a. Each options make a different list! yikes Magic.

Smart ***! tongue

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Re: Walls; This is how I thought they would work.

Annihilator wrote:

the issue is just that the DEVs didnt want to restrict walls to outpost owner ->
and that is what all suggestions resolve around.

the beta outposts are preset in a certain location, there capture mechanics are preset in a certain location - logical conclusion would be: preset locations for walls (non-plant layer walls that can be shot at)
and animated gates.

you upgrade your preset outpost like in an RTS game that resolves about preset-base building with upgrades of your choice. THAT would be in line with the current beta game mechanics that did everything to resolve around "tactical RTS games with ~10 Units" (example: MechCommander, JaggedAlliance)

it would also be in line with offering DIFFERENT gameplay on Gamma islands with real base building, unrestricted, no npc corp ownership and different wall building...

Very good point. That does make a valid argument for static wall locations.

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Re: Walls; This is how I thought they would work.

With all the players reasoning about walls and all the VERY logical argument and propositions that ensue, i cant refrain from thinking: PBS using plant layer and not targetable, no ownership restrictions, decaying to handle proliferation, bizarre interference emitter LOS fix to avoid wall destruction by locking it on the other side (lol from Anni this doesnt even work? just need to find a top/down situation maybe... not tested).

Finally, all in all it looks like a slovenly implementation. Walls are just plants with different look, different hp/resist and a way to grow them with a module.  Maybe better make us wait more and create a PBS system from scratch, with a true PBS UI to handle construction/placement/requisites, logical ownership restrictions.

Or you cannot overcome your plant layer stuff limitation for dynamic structures. Remember me something about single tile restriction for mobiles... (btw PBS are good and all, but where are our destroyers?) Maybe i sound harsh and all, but its the feeling im getting with the whole "wall case".  I feel like engine restrictions condition a bit too much the features implementations.

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Re: Walls; This is how I thought they would work.

Gremrod wrote:
Arga wrote:

whatever, remove walls from beta and we can all just log out and wait until devs get gamma islands, instead of getting incremental new toys to keep everyone interested and playing while gamma islands are being developed.

Wow, All I said was I disagree with you. Not looking to be so drastic about it.

Crap I hate these forums!

It wasn't just your disagreement, its the whole multiple threads and 100's of posts about this subject.

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Re: Walls; This is how I thought they would work.

just to make it clear - that walls are using the plant-mechanics is the most logical solution for something of that kind. If you know a better way - make your own game, with your own game engine and do it better there

its using ingame mechanics, you can see them even on low details, and the server has to store only minimal data. (run around at tellesis with everything on low - you wont even see the decorative walls there when you stay close to them, because their "center" is out of your viewing range)

PBS will have a completely different approach regarding placement on terrain because the server doesnt need to handle the location of up to 10K buildings  in a very small area. look at the existing buildings - do they follow the grid?

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Re: Walls; This is how I thought they would work.

Annihilator wrote:

PBS will have a completely different approach regarding placement on terrain because the server doesnt need to handle the location of up to 10K buildings  in a very small area. look at the existing buildings - do they follow the grid?

Wait... if there's no mechanic to stop that, what makes you think someone won't build alot of them? This seems obvious, if you can' build them 1k apart, then someone will do it, cost be damned.

If nothing else, lets take away that lesson, if it can be done, it will be; and probably sooner then expected.

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Re: Walls; This is how I thought they would work.

Arga wrote:
Lupus Aurelius wrote:

Risk, for reward, embrace it...else stay off beta.

The recent uptick in beta activity and outpost contention is an indicator that walls have made beta more attractive to more players, and that is a step in the right direction.

Actually, StateCorp starting moving into the beta islands before walls were implemented, and we'd be there in the same force and gunning for an outpost if walls had been introduced or not.  Correlation does not mean causation.