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Topic: New Player, done.

W*ell, this is it.  I still cant wrap my head around the pay-for-XP concept that is Eve Online.

Of course, there will be people who loves this, just like there will always be people who doesnt. 

IMO, and the population figures, or more precisely the lack of, speak for themselves, that will seriously hurt people who wants to try out this game.  You veterans should know.  I only always see the same group of vets chatting among themselves, back and forth.

Knowing there is NO WAY anyone can be better XPed than someone who has been PAYING, not necessary PLAYING, earlier, is just demoralizing.  There is just no drive, no incentive, no motivation to play longer and smarter.  No matter how many mobs I kill, however long I harvest/mine, I just cant get better at it.  Only time, whether u lay or not.  You might wanna call this the grind mentality.  I look at it as reward vs investment (time played, in-game experience learnt).  Now, its reward vs investment (months subscribed).

I guess this model works if you are looking at a small population of like-minded players.  But seriously, how many new gamers would wanna play Eve nowadays?  Seriously.  If you have not, would you?  I guess this game is heading towards that direction, holding on to the remaining vet players, and not enough incentives to bring in the new.

Nonetheless, good luck to all who enjoyed the game!  Ill move on to many other MMORPGs that are courting for my sub, one who rewards smart play.

2 Reply by Gremrod (edited by Gremrod 2011-11-26 07:27:38)

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Re: New Player, done.

The character progression system in Perp and stEVE is not for everyone.

But it is liked by many people. stEVE proves it with 400k to 600k subs. Perp proving it again with a slow move just like stEVE did in the beginning.

Not the 10 million that play WoW. They want to see a EXP bar move showing a type or since of self progression. rather than a time based point system for just being subbed.

It is what you do with those points that makes the player smart and what they do in game as a player that makes them smart. Of course they are smart if they exceed in doing "WHAT THEY WANT TO DO". Not what the devs what you to do.

It sounds like the player above is more into themeparks. Or games in general with active character progression. Nothing wrong with that but they tend to be themepark games.

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

3 Reply by Ezri Dax (edited by Ezri Dax 2011-11-28 12:37:55)

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Re: New Player, done.

XP-system as nothing to do with themepark games, it's just.. a XP-system.

It's all about casual and hardcore gamers.

What can be said to Davion-like players,

- Perpetuum is only 1 year old game, joining now a game who can last 5+ years will still give you opportunity to be the old vet you want to be.

- You don't need that much EP to be a specialist.

- Very large EP pool mean all-around player not God-mode.

- An extension from 0 to 8 cost less EP than from 8 to 10.

- An extension from 0 to 9 cost is very close to 9 to 10 cost.

- Difference between a full level-10 specialist player and a full level-8 specialist player isn't that much. I mean it's not like a lvl40 against a lvl50.

- Most extensions give like +1% to +5% per level, so if we round this up to +2.5%, the level-10 will have 5% more than you on each extension, yes it's better but not unbeatable.

- Perpetuum isn't a 1v1 game, it's team-based. Mean you will team with some vets.

- Smart young players can crush stupid vets. a smart lvl40 still get owned by a stupid lvl50.

- Extensions are limited to lvl 10, a super old vet will still be lvl10 in your speciality extensions, you will reach his level some day.

- NIC is very important and you need to play to gain NIC. A young rich player in heavy mech will crush the poor vet in arkhe.

All i try to explain to you is, with few months of EP, you will be a very strong player in an area you did choose, while the old vet will just spend this extra EP in some other areas because he's already maxed in yours.

TL;NR - Very large EP pool mean you can be multi-task player, not god-like player.
There might be some rare cases where this can be wrong, like Pit's Troiar ?

D: How come you don't roll on Saturday, Walter?
W: Saturday, Donny, is Shabbos, the Jewish day of rest. That means that I don't work, I don't drive a car, I don't f***ing ride in a car, I don't handle money, I don't turn on the oven, and I sure as sh*t DON'T F***ING ROLL !!
D: Sheesh.
W: Shomer shabbos! ... Shomer f***ing shabbos!
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Re: New Player, done.

Sigh, I just started 3 days ago and I don't feel this way at all, do you really think even if you had a traditional xp grind, that you'd be as good as the ones playing longer? Player experience and social standing is more important than xp grind...

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Re: New Player, done.

selected quotes with a couple minor snips:

XP-system as nothing to do with themepark games, it's just.. a XP-system.

You don't need that much EP to be a specialist.

Difference between a full level-10 specialist player and a level-8 specialist player isn't that much.

Extensions are limited to lvl 10, a super old vet will still be, at max, lvl10 in your speciality extensions,
you will reach his level some day.

In a nut-shell, all their "thousands" of extra EPs (in other skill sets and areas) don't mean squat
in a straight up fight, as only their limited selection of skills for that particular mech and weapon
comes into play.
You can easily and quickly match that by specializing in one combat (faction/race) of mechs and
one weapon system.  After that it's the more generic skills like cpu and reactor upgrades, and
armor repairs that all mechs use.
If you want to pvp, just concentrate on training up one faction's assault mech's skills and nothing
else until you get them to about 6-7+ and you'll be very usefull in your Corp's pvp battles.

Hell just max armor repair or shield skills and run around being an annoying, frustrating target for
your enemy in corp fights.  You'll distract them and draw fire away from your more combat capable
buddies and will only need to work on like 1/4 or 1/3 the initial skills to train.

I did this in Eve a few times and got many raging (and complimentary) tells on being an annoying
and difficult target.  Never fired a shot but contributed to the battle in my own way.

Think outside the box!    :-)

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Re: New Player, done.

Nova Davion wrote:

IMO, and the population figures, or more precisely the lack of, speak for themselves, that will seriously hurt people who wants to try out this game.  You veterans should know.  I only always see the same group of vets chatting among themselves, back and forth.

Knowing there is NO WAY anyone can be better XPed than someone who has been PAYING, not necessary PLAYING, earlier, is just demoralizing.  There is just no drive, no incentive, no motivation to play longer and smarter.  No matter how many mobs I kill, however long I harvest/mine, I just cant get better at it.  Only time, whether u lay or not.  You might wanna call this the grind mentality.  I look at it as reward vs investment (time played, in-game experience learnt).  Now, its reward vs investment (months subscribed).


There are 2 very HUGE misconceptions about games like EO/PO:

1. The first is your quote above regarding Time Progression XP.
     
     Sandbox games with Time Progression XP such as EO/PO are in fact the opposite of what most people believe it to be.
     
     They actually allow newer players to catch up to veteran players and be on par with them easier than a progressive XP game.  This is due to the fact that the need for XP is not progressively LINEAR.
In the terms of a graph, it's more like a BELL curve. At some point, the XP efficiency for a veteran player will begin to plateau and eventually decline based on a efficiency of XP to benefit ratio.
   
     To think of it like a Themepark game, it takes everyone the same amount of time to roughly hit LvL 20 for a specific specialization. You can then choose to progress to LvL 20.1, 20.2, 20.3, 20.4, etc in that same specialization, or use that same XP and time to diversify and begin leveling a different specialization to LvL 20. The model makes the difference between level 20 and level 20.4 very, very marginal. But due to the fact there are no "Levels" and and abundance of specializations, it is a moot point when trying to compare. There is a post above (blue text) that gives a more detailed example of how this XP model works in favor or the newer player.

     You used EvE as an example. Did you know that EvE has been out for 6+ years and that not one single player, even from Day0, has been able to learn every skill in the game to the maximum. Not one! Because it's not possible based on Eve's Time Progression XP model.

     This is very confusing to understand at first for gamers that are used to Themepark games where Levels have meaning and you can compare a level 40 to a lvl 45 being able to show a huge gap in player effectiveness against one another.
In addition, the time progression XP model is actually much more casual player friendly than a progressive XP model as you are continually gaining XP when not online. That's why it works for alot of people.


2.The second misconception is: "OMG...Sandboxes are Free For All PvP, meaning I will lose all of my epic gear due to griefers and idiots that play 24/7."
     
     This line of though relates to Sandboxes in general; regardless of it the Sandbox is FFA PvP or not.
Once again, Themepark games have conditioned players to believe GEAR is the all important aspect of the game as the 'rails' are built to do the following: grind a progressive level tree (with fluff) to reach endgame, endgame is then a grind of raids to gear up, gearing up is a grind preparing for the next raid to grind, rinse and repeat. Gear is very important and essential in a Themepark.

     The truth of a Sandbox is that 'gear' is marginally important and for the most part it's easily replaceable. Due to the lack of 'rails' there is not a need to grind for gear because there is no need to grind a raid. In fact, you can play without ever having to grind anything. You play the game the way you want to play it.

     It is understandable how a majority of MMO players do not comprehend this model. It's not very widely used as "progressive leveling" and "gear grinding" has become the norm due to the most popular Themepark MMO on the market. For alot of players, it was their first MMO and they expect a similar concept to anything else labeled an MMO.

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Re: New Player, done.

That's a good over view Keeper.

Just another thought; the sandbox trinity is EP/Gear/Player skill (Experience).

This is just like any other game, but unlike theme park games, EP and Gear don't always overcome player experience. By far, being proficient at Perp is what wins PVP, and by definition NEW players are always going to have the disavantage of being new.

Like Mak says though, new players just have to get out there and play. Have 'fun' knowing your on the learning curve. smile

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Re: New Player, done.

You guys covered the xp and gear pretty good,but I got to mention about chat. This game has one of the best community I have seen in a while. Those vets who talk in chat also answer questions and love doing it. It's like having personal mentors. Also joining a corp helps a ton.

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Re: New Player, done.

Kuo wrote:

You guys covered the xp and gear pretty good,but I got to mention about chat. This game has one of the best community I have seen in a while. Those vets who talk in chat also answer questions and love doing it. It's like having personal mentors. Also joining a corp helps a ton.

However heated the trolling gets 99.99% of current Perp players want to see new players stay.

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Re: New Player, done.

Some great info in this thread guys/gals!

Bottom line is an awesome game with an awesome community and the game keeps getting better and better...

Lonwolf
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"What we do in life, echoes into eternity!" --Gladiator