Topic: Tier-System Proposal

Thesis:
There is a great disparity in power between new players and veteran players.
This leads to the discouragement of newer players and a lack of new subscribers.

Explanation:
This is because:
* veteran players have an advantage because they have more ep's
* veteran players have better equipment

Solution:
To keep their loyal playerbase, the developpers can not remove those advantages, because veterans feel they "earned" them.
So the solution is a tier based system, where there are not only tiers for items but also for players.

Proposed Tiers:
T0 : Area around alpha main terminals, starter area, no PVP allowed. all players (regardless of ep) have access to this area
T1 : Zone for Players with an amount of xx eps (for example 15 days worth of ep)
     Players with fewer eps get buffed to this amount of ep
     Players with more eps get de-buffed to this amout of ep
     All bots/equipment are automatically scaled to tier 1 item
     You have to manually activate the PVP-Flag to participate in pvp-actions.
T2-T3: Similar to T1, but more EP and pvp is automatically enabled (like beta islands now).
T4 : Free for all area, with no limitations on ep and items

Industry chars could be integrated into this system by limiting minerals to different zones (titanium only in t0/t1, ..., epriton only T4)


Summary: The proposed solution narrows the gap between veterans and beginners and allows them to meet on even ground.

Re: Tier-System Proposal

Putting aside the issues with artificially segmenting the community...

I just don't see how the game could automatically remove EP (debuff) and add EP (Buff) as players entered or exited a zone.

That would just be totally unweildy to have players have to reallocated every time they changed zones. It would be a HUGE pain in the *** penalty for High EP players attempting to go into T1-T3 areas.

Bringing artificial segmentation back onto the table; Its not needed. It won't help 1-1 PVP since that is more often determined by equipment and player skill and not the difference between having lvl 8 or lvl 9 adv robotics.

Vetern players are always going to have _SOME_ advantages. This is absolutely no different than thempark games where level 1 players are trying to attack level 50 players. But, and this is the key here, the TERM Vetern doesn't just apply to players that have been subbed since EA. In previous threads we've did the maths, and after about 90 days, the delta in EP flattens out; that is to say, the few percentage point advantages can easily be countered by fit and skill.

So, even in the worst case, a tiering system is only really needed (if it was needed at all) for players Above and Below 90 days of EP.

Which leads back to the concept of low level players attempting content beyond their level. The difference between theme parks and sand boxes is that the sand box should not only LET those low level players engage with dragons, but encourage them to do so. Unlike XP gaining games, players really only get better at PVP when they are actually improving thier skills. What I mean is, to shoot you press the space bar. There's no perfecting of rotations or following up this skill with that. Players get better by learning movement, timing, and tactics which are 100% player skill and have nothing to do with EP or equipment.

A Great PVP player is going to absolutely own a tier that is supposed to be 'fair' with everyone having the same equipment and EP. All tiering is going to do is put fish in a barrel for that player.

Re: Tier-System Proposal

too theme parky for a sandbox game.

Re: Tier-System Proposal

I could type a wall of text to point out the epic fail in this op but I will limit myself to a single descriptive word to sum up what Kampf really meant:

DERP

Inappropriate signature.

Re: Tier-System Proposal

Scyylla wrote:

I could type a wall of text to point out the epic fail in this op but I will limit myself to a single descriptive word to sum up what Kampf really meant:

DERP

i cant argue with the above wink

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

Re: Tier-System Proposal

Well, while your feedback is appreciated, all I read is:
"Please don't change anything".
On the other hand: your sandbox is empty, where should new players come from?

You know, to improve something, you have to change something.
No change, no improvement, simple as that.

But i freely admit, while every improvement is a change, not every change is an improvement.
I'm eagerly waiting for your proposals.

7 (edited by Obi Wan Kenobi 2011-11-18 07:58:00)

Re: Tier-System Proposal

the game play style i think is fine the problem is theres not enough to do atm to keep people playing long term. allowing the player base to have more control over the enviroment & to build empires as they want, or burn them down would be far more effective in keeping people playing the game.

IMHO

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

Re: Tier-System Proposal

@Obi: Well, while I agree with you, that more content would be better, I still see the problem of the time and effort it needs for a new player to establish. Tell me one field, where a new player can remotely compete with a veteran?
What can a new player contribute to intrusions or how can he be effective at pvp?
How can a new player compete on the market?
Every day you can see industrial mechs and sometimes even heavy mechs mining/harvesting in the starter areas.
The market for <t4 items is plain dead.
What niche could a new player fill, beside endless grinding of npc's for plasma?
Is that the warm welcome you will give to new players?

9 (edited by Obi Wan Kenobi 2011-11-18 09:20:11)

Re: Tier-System Proposal

ok then serious answer. In sand box MMOs new players will always be at the disadvantage thats a fact that will never change nor should it.

Now here is the issue. How do you wish to measure success?
If you do that s a solo player then yes this game is crazy hard!!! This game kicks you in the nuts if you stay solo. Its not impossible but its damn well not easy.
However in a player run corp a new player is alot of use. So again how do we measure success? lets look at indy & pvp.

Indy: an argano vs a rivler will lose hands down yes. But i a corp setting the argano can go mine epi to make nic. He gets advice on how to best optimize his skills to maximize his abilities. And he can join bigger mechs & what not as they go out of farming ops or W/e.

PVP: Now this is a little different. a smart :noob" in say a light bot is of some use i feel. At the very lest he can be a scout (detector bot) With a little skill over a few days he can even get in an assault bot to provide some DPS. Lets be honest a day old player will have issues no matter what. But a week or 2 old & from looking at the members on trials in my corp they have ZERO obvious issues making money & have some fun in pvp.
Also a player that is aware of his surroundings & the terrain can be far more effective than a guy with 500k EP that doesnt use the terrain to his advantage.

Infact to touch on what you said about  intrusions. in the last fight we had with CIR & friends (GF btw guys) im sure NeX had a new guy in his termis doing RR in the battle.

So it all comes down to your personal drive. Are you personally (generalization here) as a new players willing to listen to what us olderplayers have to say? if so the pain of being new to this game isnt nearly as bad as what so many see, to be thinking.

As for the market well ya. It does suck & thats an old fact. But again joining a corp helps that. No matter what corp you join be it communist run or capitalist a new player will (or should) be able to get hold of most the mods & bots they need without any issues.

I know i can say for my corp we have nothing against new players & we welcome them into the game & want to help them be that giving info out or having them join our corps.. Im sure most of the corps in game have the same point of view.

I hope i have explained my POV ok smile

And now i feel dirty not having trolled any 1 in this post sad

<3

True Pros make a Podcast to influence the Devs minds, 
The rest of you guys are Hacks tongue

PS. I got my Highways & stopped playing b4 they came in & have never used them! ...... Irony much ? tongue

10 (edited by Syrissa 2011-11-18 12:09:34)

Re: Tier-System Proposal

Obi Wan Kenobi wrote:

And now i feel dirty not having trolled any 1 in this post sad

im realy suprised as i read your post obi. i never thought we could read such a post from you... compared to all that trolling we usualy see from you tongue

and yes i totally have to agree. if you compare it to the other game that i dont want to name here, its is similar as it is here.
there you need around 3 months of playing to get compedative in pvp. you still will not be at the end of the line, and you surely will not have the biggest and badest bot in the world, but you can do something and that at a good level.

the things that comes over a long time is to refine and max out your potential and/or the flexibility so you will be able to do more that this one thing.

thats the way it works. and that is totaly fine.
if you want the biggest and the badest things then i fear i have to say: just go to wow or any clone you want and get yourself a guild that will push you though the last high end instance and you will have all the shiny best pixel items you want in very short time.

put this is a sandbox and this is perp. it is ment that long term players are rewarded. if you like the game and then you will no langer be a new player in a few months. in a year a lot of players will allready recognize you as a "old veteran"... and other will complain that they can never catch up to you.

thats the way it is. you should look more for what you can do and how fast you can do that then complaining that others can do a bit more as you atm...

my 5 cents.

Re: Tier-System Proposal

Wait a moment, this got totally abroad. Where did I say, that veterans should not be rewarded?
Instead of taking away anything from the vets, my proposal was to ADD something for the beginners, where beginners could compete with each others. And when they feel ready, then they could mess with the vets.
Please re-read the posting.

And this is also not a posting about me, I'm here since beta - so please stop this "gimme something bullshit".

Well, at this point in time, the majority of players left are those, that really like the game with all it's strenghts and weaknesses. I can totally accept your opinion, that the new player experience is ok, but I feel otherwise. Look at the subscriber numbers and then come back and tell me earnestly, that nothing has to change.

Are only "nay-sayers" left ? Where are the ones with ideas and proposals, that really care for the game and it's future?

Re: Tier-System Proposal

dont take that personal... big_smile

but where is the reward for the vets when you give more or less the same to the beginners. in some kind of bonus where effective the results are nearly the same.

this is a sandbox. you can get good enough in a reasonal ammount of time. if a beginner has a problem that he is not as good as a vet then this is not the type of game he should play. then this the the basic principal of this kind of games. the longer the beginner is in game the closer he gets to the vets, but he may never reach it. he may surpass it if he specializes and the veteran is not. maybe he wants a more flexible char. then he has the chance to specialize and surpass him in a special field. but not in overall EP development.

i simply think the way you proposed is the wrong one.
besides it could be heavyly abused. creating trial accounts give them t1 fits.. get to pvp zones and be way too good because of your boni... no good idea.
again: this is sandbox. you have to work (or wait) to get what you want. there is no cheating to the front. that whats sandbox is, and should be.

Re: Tier-System Proposal

Kampf Maus wrote:

Tell me one field, where a new player can remotely compete with a veteran?

Please point out any game where a new player can compete with a vet.

Any FPS - Vetern players know the maps, have unlocked all the good gear, new players have to just suck up the 1-shot sniper kills from 400 yrds through keyholes.

WoW - New players don't step right into Heroic Rag, even if you power level to 85 in a week, your still going to be 100 raid runs away from being geared for HR. With PVP honor cap points, its still going to take a month or more of PVP to get BIS gear and be competitive there.

World of Tanks - Never played, but I assume that the more matches you are in, the better tanks you can get.

What your actual proposal, removing reference to Islands, is the same as asking for PVP arena; with EP as the level system. The reason there are no Arena's is that it artifically divides the player base and would elimiate world PVP (because it's much simpler to que up for an arean than it is to run around for 45-90 min looking for a fight).

Implementing an Arena would be the developer giving up on making world PVP work, and since they I 2.0 is the first real change they are making to objective based PVP, I'd say they still have a few more attempts in them before scrapping the whole premise of Perp.

Where are the ones with ideas and proposals, that really care for the game and it's future?

As for the idea that the community needs to seperate out by tiers based on EP in order to keep new players interested is a non-starter. What your seeing in this thread is the rejection that this direction, arenas, is the proper solution to the issue of keeping new players.

There are lots of proposals on the forums for helping to keep new players intersted, focusing more on CONTENT and not on providing a safe and nurturing environment.

Re: Tier-System Proposal

this thread is EPIC FAIL.

Arga is right. Name one game where newbs can compete with vets. They lack the skills, they lack the knowledge and they lack the gear. ALWAYS !!!

If you have a problem with time based skill gain instead of grind based, go find another game. Seriously. This game is not for you (nor is stEVE or similar games).

15 (edited by Cassius 2011-11-18 20:25:51)

Re: Tier-System Proposal

A one week old player can compete with a vet in the area of artifact scanning.
(Well, 95% of all sites anyways) both on Alpha and Beta.

And speaking of which, Alpha and Beta already represent natural "teirs".  The sandbox aspect allows a noob player like myself to jump into content way above my head and die (both PvE and PvP). But that's how you learn. And its how I am learning and having fun. Your teired suggestion would take away the absolute rush the fresh noob gets the first time he sets foot on Beta, finds a 75% CT, and escapes thru the tele with a quarter health while being shot by veteran locals. You cannot get that adrenaline rush from a scripted or easy area. My son is currently playing the campaign for MW3 on easy level and blitzing the missions. Then he likes to play it on hard. But how much fun or challenge can that be?

TL:DR - No to teirs, keep sandbox open and exploreable.